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Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:08 PM

538: Hillary Clinton was liberal. Hillary Clinton is liberal.

The data show that she's a liberal, despite how some DUers view her.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/hillary-clinton-was-liberal-hillary-clinton-is-liberal/

A bunch of reporters have recently discovered a shocking truth: Hillary Clinton is liberal! (I heard a rumor that Columbo has been helping with the investigation.)

We’ve gotten this raft of “Clinton is liberal” exposés as Clinton has revved up her 2016 campaign, speaking out in support of gay marriage, a pathway to citizenship for immigrants in the U.S. illegally, and criminal justice reform. But what many of these articles miss is that Clinton has always been, by most measures, pretty far to the left. When she’s shifted positions, it has been in concert with the entire Democratic Party.

To see how these different issues fit together to form an overall political ideology, we usually use three metrics: one based on congressional voting record, one based on public statements and one based on fundraising.

Clinton was one of the most liberal members during her time in the Senate. According to an analysis of roll call votes by Voteview, Clinton’s record was more liberal than 70 percent of Democrats in her final term in the Senate. She was more liberal than 85 percent of all members. Her 2008 rival in the Democratic presidential primary, Barack Obama, was nearby with a record more liberal than 82 percent of all members — he was not more liberal than Clinton.

SNIP

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Reply 538: Hillary Clinton was liberal. Hillary Clinton is liberal. (Original post)
pnwmom Apr 2016 OP
Lucinda Apr 2016 #1
kcjohn1 Apr 2016 #2
seabeyond Apr 2016 #4
kcjohn1 Apr 2016 #8
seabeyond Apr 2016 #33
Kelvin Mace Apr 2016 #12
seabeyond Apr 2016 #34
Kelvin Mace Apr 2016 #47
seabeyond Apr 2016 #54
Kelvin Mace Apr 2016 #59
seabeyond Apr 2016 #61
Kelvin Mace Apr 2016 #71
seabeyond Apr 2016 #74
kcjohn1 Apr 2016 #13
riversedge Apr 2016 #29
seabeyond Apr 2016 #37
kcjohn1 Apr 2016 #39
CorporatistNation Apr 2016 #40
seabeyond Apr 2016 #42
jack_krass Apr 2016 #62
seabeyond Apr 2016 #63
Skwmom Apr 2016 #10
jcgoldie Apr 2016 #14
kcjohn1 Apr 2016 #18
jcgoldie Apr 2016 #25
kcjohn1 Apr 2016 #38
jcgoldie Apr 2016 #41
kcjohn1 Apr 2016 #50
jcgoldie Apr 2016 #57
Barack_America Apr 2016 #21
seabeyond Apr 2016 #3
whatchamacallit Apr 2016 #5
Stallion Apr 2016 #28
TekGryphon Apr 2016 #36
cry baby Apr 2016 #6
Lizzie Poppet Apr 2016 #7
truedelphi Apr 2016 #76
Onlooker Apr 2016 #9
redstateblues Apr 2016 #11
Kelvin Mace Apr 2016 #22
Buzz cook Apr 2016 #53
Kelvin Mace Apr 2016 #65
DCBob Apr 2016 #15
Kelvin Mace Apr 2016 #16
pnwmom Apr 2016 #20
Barack_America Apr 2016 #23
pnwmom Apr 2016 #24
Kelvin Mace Apr 2016 #43
Buzz cook Apr 2016 #55
Kelvin Mace Apr 2016 #72
truedelphi Apr 2016 #77
pnwmom Apr 2016 #27
Recursion Apr 2016 #73
Kelvin Mace Apr 2016 #26
HooptieWagon Apr 2016 #48
DCBob Apr 2016 #30
Kelvin Mace Apr 2016 #44
HooptieWagon Apr 2016 #49
Kelvin Mace Apr 2016 #51
Nonhlanhla Apr 2016 #56
CrowCityDem Apr 2016 #17
HooptieWagon Apr 2016 #46
mcar Apr 2016 #19
basselope Apr 2016 #31
TekGryphon Apr 2016 #35
basselope Apr 2016 #45
TekGryphon Apr 2016 #52
basselope Apr 2016 #78
Dem2 Apr 2016 #32
JumpinJehosaphat Apr 2016 #58
pnwmom Apr 2016 #60
JumpinJehosaphat Apr 2016 #69
pnwmom Apr 2016 #75
actslikeacarrot Apr 2016 #64
pnwmom Apr 2016 #67
actslikeacarrot Apr 2016 #70
snowy owl Apr 2016 #66
Tiggeroshii Apr 2016 #68
Scuba Apr 2016 #79
pnwmom Apr 2016 #80
Scuba Apr 2016 #82
pnwmom Apr 2016 #83
Scuba Apr 2016 #84
Orsino Apr 2016 #81

Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:15 PM

1. Yep. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:17 PM

2. So misleading

For starters, most liberal things don't even get a vote in congress because they are not allowed by the special interests that own congress. Universal healthcare - Has that ever made it so far to actual get roll call votes? The reason is because it allows politicians like Hillary the opportunity to tell voters one thing, and never be put on the spot to vote for it. That is why Bernie campaign was so beautiful. He actually campaigned on issues, and as result put Clinton's "liberalism" on trial, and she failed.

Secondly, being most liberal member of Senate is not the same as liberal. Senate is the most corrupted institution in our political system. Outside of Sanders, who really is a liberal? Warren is great on wall-street, but what are her views on other things like privacy/war and peace? The scam they run is usually be liberal on one or two things, so they get pass on screwing the public on the 10 things.

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Response to kcjohn1 (Reply #2)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:18 PM

4. Clinton was out in front of health care long before Sanders or most all of his supporters.

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #4)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:22 PM

8. Really?



Have you asked yourself why her position now is that single payer healthcare will never never never come to pass? Strange how money from healthcare industry can influence someones viewpoint on what is possible and not.

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Response to kcjohn1 (Reply #8)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:50 PM

33. Yes, I have listened to Clinton reasoning.

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #4)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:24 PM

12. Really?

 

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #12)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:51 PM

34. Are you really comparing Clinton's work put into that to Sanders standing behind in support? Lol.

 

So, this is so typical of Sanders and his supporters. Other people do all the work, and he gets credit?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #34)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:10 PM

47. Ummm, you read the part in HRC's handwriting where she thanks Sanders for his

 

"commitment to real health care access for all Americans"?

Wow, the denial is strong in this one.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #47)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:22 PM

54. Yes. Clinton is generous and gracious. Clinton did months of work. Sanders stood behind her and

 

Supported her. Clinton thanked him. Yea!

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #54)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:03 PM

59. When you refuse reality, we have nothing left to discuss

 

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #59)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:08 PM

61. Realty, Clinton worked months upon months on the bill. Sanders stood behind her and supported the

 

bill. Clinton sent him a note graciously thanking Sanders for his support with health care. Again, Yea.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #61)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:28 PM

71. Again, no

 

Sanders had been working on it before HRC was ever in office

This wasn’t the first time Sanders has reached out to Clinton. He’s been doing that for more than 20 years. As one of Congress’s most liberal members in the 1990s, Sanders went back and forth between clashing with Bill Clinton and warily embracing the leader of the centrist New Democrats. But even before the Clintons were in the White House, Bernie was playing the role of pragmatic progressive, making overtures directly to Hillary and working to pull her to the left.

In 1992, the lone socialist in Congress, Rep. Bernard Sanders, as he was then known, wasn’t wild about the centrist Arkansas Governor running for president, and he let it be known publicly. “Bernie was the founder of the progressive caucus. Clinton was the founder of the [Democratic Leadership Council], the whole point of which was to exterminate the progressives,” said Bill Curry, who served as counselor to the president during Clinton’s first term. “They weren’t even two ships passing in the night. They were two ships sailing in the opposite direction.”

That summer, Sanders issued what the Vermont newspapers described as a “reluctant” and “half-hearted” endorsement of Clinton, saying that a second Bush term would be disastrous. In September, Clinton traveled to Vermont for a campaign rally in Burlington at Perkins Piers on Lake Champlain. Sanders was in attendance, and Clinton made sure to point out just how vast the gap was between Sanders and the Republican nominee on Sanders’ pet issue: health care.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #71)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:55 PM

74. Again. Clinton did the work for months and months. Sanders supported it.

 

Sanders talked about it, a lot. He does a whole bunch of talking. Clinton worked.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #4)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:26 PM

13. 1990 Clip of Sanders on Healthcare

?t=1638

Can you tell me when Clinton started her fight for healthcare?

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Response to kcjohn1 (Reply #13)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:44 PM

29. Hillary put herself out there and tried to do something about health

care assess early on. Yes, it failed but she tried. Did Bernie put out a proposal?

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Response to riversedge (Reply #29)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:52 PM

37. They equate standing behind Clinton while she did all the work, as Sanders work.

 

So fuckin' typical. Amazing how consistent we are in this creation we make of Sanders.

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Response to riversedge (Reply #29)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:00 PM

39. The only reason she took on Healthcare was to pad her resume

And it failed.

If you listen to the video I posted from 1990 (before Hillary started her "project", Sanders got into office talking about need for universal healthcare, and how we get there. He has being consistent. As 1 congressman or senator, there is only so much he can do.

The thing with Bernie is I know if he is in position to do it, he will. That is half the battle. Politicians like Hillary will only do what her funders want her to do.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #4)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:02 PM

40. Hillary IS A CARD CARRYING CORPORATIST! Look Up The Definition... Same As Mussolini!

There is zero Debate on this based on her actual record!

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Response to CorporatistNation (Reply #40)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:06 PM

42. And it is stupid statements like this that have people like me, merely retort with... Clinton kicked

 

Sanders ass. Winner/Loser.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #42)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:08 PM

62. Just because she won doesnt mean shes not a corporatist

 

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Response to jack_krass (Reply #62)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:09 PM

63. Yada yada.... yada.

 

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Response to kcjohn1 (Reply #2)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:23 PM

10. Exactly. Great summary of one part of the Big Con.


It is like with Disney. They fire American Workers and illegally replace them with foreign workers (like they don't make enough money). But they came out for LGBT rights recently so I guess we can just forget how they screwed over American Workers.

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Response to kcjohn1 (Reply #2)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:26 PM

14. Thats interesting

Pretty sure the president whoever s/he is will have to work with Congress including the Senate to get anything passed. If your argument is that being one of the most liberal members of the Senate doesn't actually make a candidate liberal enough... what good would it be to be much farther to the left of anyone in Congress if it means you accomplish none of your goals?

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Response to jcgoldie (Reply #14)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:33 PM

18. The bottom 90% have NO INFLUENCE ON CONGRESS

Liberal/Conservative, the bottom 90% opinion does not matter to congress. There have being many studies proving this fact. The most recent one being this Princeton study.

It's not a matter of liberal or not, because those are just semantics. What gets voted in congress is not what the 90% care about or want.

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Response to kcjohn1 (Reply #18)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:41 PM

25. Poor people get fucked no matter what I get that.

But it still doesn't answer the question... if you admit that HRC is politically left of 85% of Congress as 538 showed... then how would someone further to the left ideologically be more effective in this system?

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Response to jcgoldie (Reply #25)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:55 PM

38. I don't think Hillary is that much worsier than other Dems

I think she is morally corrupt (for various reasons), and if another Dem had exact same policies, I would vote for the other strictly because of this reason.

In terms of your question, I don't think Sanders would be that effective in terms of policy changes with that congress. Clinton might actually work with congress, but because congress is owned by special interests, the only thing that would get done is things that screw the average guy and help her wallstreet friends.

The real reason why Bernie is better, is because if he is elected that would be the start of political revolution. Clinton is as establishment as it gets. She has done everything right in terms of playing under the current system. Her lose would represent the collapse of the establishment. Congress and other elected politicians would actually have think twice about who they should fear the most, special interests or the voters.

A win for Clinton represents a win for establishment.

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Response to kcjohn1 (Reply #38)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:02 PM

41. These are good points

But I remember the hope of some sort of political revolution under Obama. I'm still a huge fan but he hit a brick wall. I think Hillary is more of a pragmatist. Morally corrupt? Well they are all politicians and Sanders is one too so I'll pass on the sainthood that many of his supporters seems to see in him. Does he have better morals than her? I don't know since I don't know either of them personally and I don't really give a damn. All that matters is what they can do.

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Response to jcgoldie (Reply #41)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:17 PM

50. I was fooled by Obama, but should have not being

At the time people Chomsky were saying he is no different from other politicians, and they were right. All we had to do is look at the support he was getting and where it was coming from. Obama just played the system better, and got the support good chunk of the establishment & power brokers. I'm still glad he won over Hillary, and McCain, but he was not revolutionary in any way.

The morals are not about if they are nice to each other and other people. I could care less what they do in their personal lives. The moral decay I'm talking is selling public access for personal gain. I can even forgave the campaign financing part as every candidate begs the rich for money. Compare Clinton's post office record with that of Jimmy Carter. Or even George Bush. Not only is there the appearance of corruption, but REAL and OUT in the public corruption. I just can't stand people who use public office to gain personally. IMO Romney has 10x the morals that Clintons have, and I don't think much of Romney.

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Response to kcjohn1 (Reply #50)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:36 PM

57. See

I don't believe that Obama's success was limited because he "played the system" or that he fooled anyone. I think he ran into a system of checks and balances which is inherently conservative and republican obstructionism which was rewarded at the ballot box by the racially motivated tea party. I fail to see how Bernie would be more effective getting anything progressive passed other than the fact that he isn't black. The stuff about morals... still not feeling it... I think Clinton typically loses a lot of sincerity points for being a woman and running counter to popular gender roles... Mitt Romney... seriously?

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Response to kcjohn1 (Reply #2)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:37 PM

21. Can you make this an OP sometime?

But don't waste it in GDP, take it over to GD.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:17 PM

3. Of course she is. Facts bare it out. Fact, at our hand. That is the out of control, over the top

 

of Sanders and his supporters that facts and reality are not part of their equation. And then they take it one step further. That Democrats have the audacity to vote for her, without shame, taints us with the same lie. Ignoring fact.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:20 PM

5. 538 was full of crap. 538 is full of crap.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #5)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:43 PM

28. Its a Conspiracy!!!!

nm

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #5)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:52 PM

36. Yep, and the earth is flat and global warming is a Bolshevik plot.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:20 PM

6. 538.......under the bus with you! nt

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:21 PM

7. Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

 

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #7)

Fri Apr 29, 2016, 12:30 AM

76. Same reaction here. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:23 PM

9. That's why it's quite apparent Bernie has always respected her n/t

 

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:23 PM

11. The BSS meme that Hillary is a Republican

Is such utter bullshit

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Response to redstateblues (Reply #11)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:38 PM

22. Well, I never called her a Republican,

 

she is, at best, a center right moderate, and at worst an old guard conservative.

In her own words, she prefers "progressive", but then rejects it when the word "socialism" is included in the mix:



Also, she prefers "moderate":

"You know, I get accused of being kind of moderate and center," Clinton told the audience at a Women for Hillary event in Ohio. "I plead guilty."

So, by her own words she is NOT a liberal.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #22)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:21 PM

53. The original progressive were not socialist nt.

nt

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Response to Buzz cook (Reply #53)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:13 PM

65. Again, depends on how you define "socialism"

 

If you consider "socialist" and "Communist" interchangeable, then no they weren't. If you define "socialist" as championing social welfare, then yes they were:

https://www.gwu.edu/~erpapers/teachinger/glossary/progressive-era.cfm

It seems to me that "progressives" changed their name to "liberals" when it came to be considered politically suspect, and then in the 90s it was changed back when "liberal" became a slur. Both words are now considered damning by the Right and are used in attack ads.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:27 PM

15. Excellent analysis.

Unfortunately the Berners won't get it.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:27 PM

16. Depends on what your definition of "liberal" is.

 

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #16)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:34 PM

20. That chart is a joke, so of course DUers post it.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #20)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:39 PM

23. No more of a joke than 538.

Any reply to post #2?

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #23)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:41 PM

24. From the perspective of the most 1% of lefties, she doesn't look liberal. From the center,

she looks very liberal.

And the very furthest left don't define what liberal means.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #24)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:06 PM

43. No, the people on the Right do.

 

Also, please enlighten me about which policy I support that you consider the "furthest left"

I oppose the death penalty.

I want the Bush administration investigated for war crimes.

I want the defense budget cut and the social/infrastructure budgets increased.

I support a livable minimum wage (200% of the poverty level), inflation adjusted.

I support the elimination of tax subsidies for fossil fuels.

I support universal health care

I support subsidies for renewable energy.

I support tight regulation on pollution, including carbon emissions.

I support increasing the capital gains tax, and removing the cap on FICA earnings.

I support a transaction tax on stocks and bonds.

I support strict regulation of derivatives.

I support withdrawal of all troops from Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria and a cessation of drone strikes.

I oppose torture and would see violators vigorously prosecuted.

I support restoration of all provisions of the Voting Rights Act.

I support equal pay for equal work.

I oppose any collusion with war criminals, past or present.

I support overturning Citizens United, in principle and deed.

I support prohibiting any bank with assets greater than 0.5% of the GDP from existing. Any bank which exceeds that value must divest, or be broken up.

I support disincorporation (the corporate death penalty) for companies that repeatedly break the law, and the criminal prosecution of their officers.

I support a woman's right to choose without restriction.

I believe in free public education.

I oppose privatizing ANY government function such as prisons, water utilities, toll roads, parking, law enforcement, military support, law enforcement, collection services, etc.

I could go on, but that is enough for now.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #43)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:23 PM

55. Your number two?

I have yet to hear Bernie say he will investigate the Bush administration.

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Response to Buzz cook (Reply #55)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:29 PM

72. I don't know that he was ever asked

 

however, the issue in my post is which of my positions makes me "furthest left"?


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Response to pnwmom (Reply #24)

Fri Apr 29, 2016, 12:55 AM

77. Then please please let me define it for you. I am definitely

On the left, as I think you realize:

One of the reasons most of us who support Sanders and not Hillary is due in part to the fact that HRC is Pro Wall Street, and will do nothing abut the derivative trades or the lack of protections, which means we can expect to bail out the One Percent once again, just like we did in 2008 to 2011.

Now, a liberal wants banking returned to its Carter and Reagan era profit structure, wherein Bankers and Big Financial People do not get 48 to 49 cents out of every dollar of profit generated in this country, but only 8 or 9 cents, like they did circa 1981.

A liberal wants Glass Steagal put back in place.

The liberal crowd wants derivative trading strictly governed, such that one billion bucks worth of gambling on fifty million dollars of "deals" is not a possibility. And a liberal wants a No Bailout policy. If you' re too Big To Fail, you should be broken up into such small pieces that you will learn a thing or two about what it is like to struggle.

The liberal crowd also wants a real banking system created such that hedge fund managers are taxed the going rate of taxation, same as teachers and sanitation workers and firemen. We need a banking system that allows for small business loans and not the situation that exists now, wherein a small business person has to borrow money at 15% or more. Why is that? If they can have bankers provide for small businesses in Europe, that should be a possibility here in "The Ne World."

A liberal wants to rescind Citizens United.

A liberal wants most drug laws rescinded. Take the money we are now spending on prisons and put those monies to work for the people in terms of Universities, colleges and apprenticeship programs being for free.

A liberal wants fracking to be outlawed. We are now a nation that is trading our children and grandchildren's right to have drinking water for the sake of an energy supply that will be gone in fifteen years.

A liberal wants to repeal the regressive tax code that exists and replace it with a progressive tax, perhaps a VAT like they have in Europe.

A liberal wants jobs to be returned to the USA. These include manufacturing jobs, and also customer service jobs. Billing positions. Research and other higher education positions that are now handled by people in labs in Singapore or Shanghai. Return them to the USA.

It goes without saying that a liberal crowd wants to have Pro Choice be an option. Health situations should be handled by a woman and her physician, and not some group of legislators thinking about being re-elected by the RW "Christian" crowd.

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #23)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:42 PM

27. 538 uses data to support its claims. That unsourced chart is just a pretty picture. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #27)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:50 PM

73. Not to mention a libertarian recruitment tool (nt)

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #20)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:41 PM

26. Again,

 

she rejects the term "liberal" and calls herself a moderate.

So, when she herself denies being a liberal, she isn't a liberal.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #20)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:10 PM

48. Koch Brothers like her.

 

So does Kagan and Kissinger. Jamie Dimon is equally pleased with her or Jeb. That's all RW endorsements.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #16)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:45 PM

30. I would like see where other elected Democrats show up on that chart.

I suspect most would be near or to the right of Hillary.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #30)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:07 PM

44. Agreed.

 

I would be curious where many HRC supporters would wind up on that chart. I am guessing that if they are honest, they will wind up WAY to her left.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #44)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:12 PM

49. Pretty close to right where Clinton is.

 

For all practical purposes, her supporters are pro-choice Republicans.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #49)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:18 PM

51. And her pro-choice bona fides

 

have "conditions".

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #49)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:24 PM

56. Really?

Thanks for deciding for me what I am.

I just love it when Bernie supporters decide to tell us who we are.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:32 PM

17. But apparently 90% of congress are conservatives.

 

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Response to CrowCityDem (Reply #17)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:08 PM

46. Yes, about 90% is right of center.

 

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:34 PM

19. Yes!

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:46 PM

31. She's center right.

 

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Response to basselope (Reply #31)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:51 PM

35. Says people incapable of reading anything that isn't in their echo chamber.

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Response to basselope (Reply #45)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:20 PM

52. You're really going to "facts" the greatest statistician team of all time with...

... that? Really?

Just how deep are you inside that echo chamber? Do you think you'll get out by November, or are you lost for good?

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Response to TekGryphon (Reply #52)

Fri Apr 29, 2016, 02:12 AM

78. She's center right.

 

Deal with it.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:49 PM

32. Anybody who says she isn't is essentially trolling you

for a reaction - no reasonable person believes that she's not liberal or the same as a Republican, no matter what they say in an effort to turn you against her.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:57 PM

58. What a self serving and absurd statement

"When she’s shifted positions, it has been in concert with the entire Democratic Party. "
How do you begin to make sense of that?

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Response to JumpinJehosaphat (Reply #58)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:04 PM

60. This is how you make sense of it: she's human. That means she evolves and changes her mind

based on new information and experiences in life, just like the rest of us.

Most liberals didn't support marriage equality even ten years ago. Even Bernie didn't. He made a public statement in 2006, still viewable on youtube, saying that the voters in his state approved civil unions but not gay marriage and that's why he thought marriage should remain a states rights matter.

So he publicly changed his mind in 2009 and Hillary in 2013. And a couple years later, with the Supreme Court decision, millions of more Americans changed their minds.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #60)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:22 PM

69. I'm sorry but where is the leadership? Bernie Sanders may have said that, I'll check up on that. But

you have to admit that Sanders was far more prescient progressive on this issue if you had seen Clinton's answer in the Hardball program where she meekly shook her head and said she did not support marriage rights for gay couples. Beyond that, where has she every led on an issue, where has she used any political capital and worked an issue for a progressive stance? Her health care work in the early 90s did not start with the idea of universal single payer coverage, but a hodgepodge of private insurance providers. There are others who have posted more succinctly on that debacle. She would have the support of many more progressive if you can point out where she has lead on a progressive issue.

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Response to JumpinJehosaphat (Reply #69)

Fri Apr 29, 2016, 12:22 AM

75. Her position on healthcare was based on what could be passed through Congress.

She, like Ted Kennedy, believed in not making the perfect be the enemy of the good . Bernie has often been willing to sacrifice step-by-step progress for the sake of his big goal. So he voted against healthcare insurance in the Clinton administration -- a more liberal plan than what Obama eventually got passed -- because he wanted his single payer bill instead. And his plan didn't have a chance of passing. Not a good decision, except for his ego.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:11 PM

64. On domestic issues? Yeah she is liberal enough.

...I have already said that on another post. But when it comes to foreign policy? No way. Center right at best.

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Response to actslikeacarrot (Reply #64)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:15 PM

67. Even on foreign policy.

http://www.vox.com/2016/4/27/11504272/hillary-clinton-hawk

It was a simple scorecard, assembled by a non-partisan nuclear nonproliferation group called Global Zero, comparing the five remaining candidates on a battery of eight foreign policy issues.

On every issue that Global Zero measured, Clinton is indicated as far less hawkish than all three of the Republican candidates, and as basically tied with Bernie Sanders. She supports the Iran nuclear deal; the Republicans all oppose it. She supports using diplomacy to solve the North Korean nuclear crisis; John Kasich is the only Republican to do so. She supports negotiating with Russia to reduce nuclear weapons; no Republican candidate does.

This measured only policies related to nuclear weapons, and so is far from comprehensive. But on these major geopolitical challenges — including the Iranian and North Korean nuclear programs, which seem among the few crises that could plausibly draw the US into war — Clinton is significantly more dovish than all three Republican candidates.

SNIP

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #67)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:27 PM

70. Oh well then that's a relief! I can now be confident...

...in my vote that she ONLY supports conventional war!

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:15 PM

66. How can you call a person who is the biggest hawk of all running a liberal? Fracking, TPP . . .

what is a liberal anyway? I don't think I know anymore.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:15 PM

68. Neo*

 

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Apr 29, 2016, 08:25 AM

79. Pro-war, pro-private prison, pro-fracking, pro-TPP does not equate to "liberal."

 

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Response to Scuba (Reply #79)

Fri Apr 29, 2016, 08:38 AM

80. What does any of that have to do with Hillary? Nothing.

She isn't pro-war, she opposes private prisons, she is against the TPP and the restrictions she proposes on fracking are so limiting it would be regulated out of existence.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #80)

Fri Apr 29, 2016, 08:58 AM

82. Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong.

 

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Response to Scuba (Reply #82)

Fri Apr 29, 2016, 09:25 AM

83. You should educate yourself.

Start here. It's been up for more than a year, which should have given you plenty of time to read it.

hillaryclinton.com

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #83)

Fri Apr 29, 2016, 10:42 AM

84. I'm put more faith in past actions than campaign rhetoric.

 

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Fri Apr 29, 2016, 08:53 AM

81. Bogus framing.

"Liberal" on the scale of modern American politics. "Liberal" when it comes to the profoundly conservative agenda of the Senate.

Take a step back, and she is revealed as a centrist, tacking right when it comes to the economy, the prison industry and war, while having (eventually) come along toward the left on some social issues.

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