Even Nader thinks Bernie is terrible at politics

[forjusticethunders]

http://images.politico.com/global/2014/03/06/2014_-_3_6_-_letter_to_bernie_sanders.html

Read it.
Read it all.
This is Ralph fucking Nader talking.
Ralph "I helped elect Dubya" Nader.

If only I had known this shit before supporting him in the first place. He's a fraud. All he does is make a lot of noise about saying the right things, but he does nothing about it.

[pinebox]

1. Nader didn't help elect Bush

Kathlene Harris and a conservative SCOTUS did.

[One of the 99]

3. Nader put them in a position to steal it.

I really wish Nader supporters would be adults and take some responsibility for what happened in 2000.

[pinebox]

12. Wrong.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/6/1260721/-The-Nader-Myth

[One of the 99]

17. Yes that is wrong

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersreact/la-le-0521-thursday-ralph-nader-20150521-story.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/09/opinion/the-next-nader-effect.html?_r=0

[PDittie]

44. No, Jim Hightower is not wrong.

http://www.salon.com/2000/11/28/hightower/

Note the date this was published: November of 2000. Gore didn't even throw in the towel until December.

For those who won't click or simply cannot stand the truth: 300,000+ registered Florida Democrats -- including nearly 200K who described themselves as 'liberal' -- who voted for Bush > 97K Nader votes. #FeelTheMath

This simply isn't in dispute by most people any longer. Nader cost Gore etc. is nothing but stubborn urban legend.

[One of the 99]

47. Not an urban legend but the truth.

This reminds me of how the RW refuses to accept facts about evolution and climate change.

[Hortensis]

55. Nader was WILLING to cost Gore the election.

We ALL know that.

We all know that election dynamics would have been different without a third party.

We do not know if Gore would have won if Nader hadn't divided and distracted the electorate by badmouthing the Democrats. Some of us strongly suspect he would have.

BUT we all do know that Nader and those voted for him were willing to take the chance of putting a Republican in the White House. And that's what we got.

Of course NOW they deny they could have helped elect W...

[riderinthestorm]

71. Nader got 2.74% of the vote. He was NOT a factor

It would be equivalent to saying Hillary is being divided and distracted by Jill Stein.

The Green Party is simply not a factor then or now and trying to contort that 2.74% into anything of significance is really dishonest.

[PDittie]

69. Precisely.

Horse's asses to water or something like that. Just stone cold ignorant.

BlahblahFUCKNADERblahblahGAVEUSBUSHblahblahIRAQWARblhablah.

[pmorlan1]

32. Wow

you guys are so delusional. No wonder you support Hillary. I voted for Gore but I sure as hell know it wasn't Nader who cost him the election. You guys are like the mirror image of delusional right wingers who drink the RNC Kool-Aid.

[One of the 99]

34. I don't support Hillary.

In fact I voted for Bernie in the primary. And the only delusion is former Nader supporters who like little children refuse to take any responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

[pmorlan1]

35. My apologies

for insulting you by saying you were a Clinton supporter. As I said I voted for Gore and I totally disagree with you that Nader caused Gore to lose.

[One of the 99]

46. Thanks!

But I don't think that Nader caused Gore to lose but that he was one of several contributing factors. What I don't like is how Nader supports try to deny this and refuse to take any responsibility.

[beachbum bob]

6. 97,000+ nader voters in florida secured florida for bush....

[pinebox]

14. Gore couldn't even win his home state

This has been proven time and time again that Nader had zero to do with W winning.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/6/1260721/-The-Nader-Myth

[apcalc]

28. Guess those Nader

Votes would have gone to W.

[phleshdef]

58. To be fair, Tennessee has been solid red in all but 2 elections since 1980.

[karynnj]

61. Because his home state was Tennessee - which was going redder over the years

It was Gore senior and Gore Jr who kept that seat for us for years when it really was a red state. This would be like claiming had 2012 been closer that Romney lost 2012 because he lost MA.

[Demsrule86]

11. Oh no

Nader and the leftist who supported is bid gave us George Bush...the election has to be close enough to steal...Thanks, Nader. I despise Nader, but he is right about Bernie...one trick pony...does not play well with others.

[pinebox]

16. You're wrong

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/6/1260721/-The-Nader-Myth

Gore was a shitty candidate, period. Blame that and not those who supported someone else. As I said, a conservative SCOTUS and Kathlene Harris gave you W.

[Demsrule86]

19. sorry Nader and the greens are dead to me.

They allowed the worst president ever to be elected ...I will never forgive them.

[pinebox]

20. No shock considering Greens are very progressive and you aren't.

[Demsrule86]

50. Nothing progressive about these losers

who accomplish nothing...and act as spoilers. They gave us the worst president in our history, I would not get involved in anything they do...and you are right ...I am liberal. I hate the word "progressive". Obama is a little to right for me...but he has been a good president. I am a grown up and do what is best for the country. I do not support people who cause trouble and accomplish nothing.

[pinebox]

51. Why is it so hard to understand

that Greens had nothing to do with Gore being a shitty candidate with the personality of a cardboard box and that a conservative SCOTUS along with Kathlene Harris gave you W. Not Greens.

Accept responsibility for Dems running a walking talking fire hydrant for a candidate.

Sorry but Greens are progressive. They stand for universal health care, are anti-fracking, support a living wage and see housing and shelter as a human right. Tell us, what part of that ideology do you specifically disagree with?

We'll wait.

[Hortensis]

59. Good post, DemsRule.

Pinebox, Gore was a decent, articulate, intelligent, and sufficiently attractive and charming candidate with an excellent liberal progressive agenda. Lies won't change that.

The dynamics of a two-party race would have been entirely different from the three-party race with two of the parties double-teaming to bring down Gore. Like what has already been happening with Sanders and Trump double-teaming Hillary, but of course ultimately much worse.

DemsRule is entirely justified in blaming Nader and those who supported Nader for the election of W. Nader was a huge factor in throwing that election, and we know Nader's voters were willing to have W win.

DU's Nader/SBSers can deny it all they want, here and everywhere, but we all know most refuse to "out" themselves as former naderites and we all know the reason.

[Demsrule86]

67. Gore may have been a shitty candidate

But without Greens he would have won...and we would have been spared 8 years of Bush...Two wars, financial, catastrophe and the courts...which lead to the United and Hobby Lobby...among other really bad rulings. The Greens knew they would siphon off votes in a tough election year...what was the point? Did they do anyone any good...no they never do. The greens are dead to me. They are losers and only hurt progressives...Ralph Nader is the worst of the lot.

[Yavin4]

48. Don't worry. That's going to change.

The BS supporters will get Trump elected, and he will make us long for the days of W.

[Demsrule86]

49. Let's hope not...I still think Hillary can win

If BSSers do this...I sincerely hope they finally learn the difference between GOP and Dems...by massive amounts of suffering.

[pinebox]

52. No sorry but Hillary will get Trump elected

Most of America hates her. You need to face this reality. She has decades of baggage.
Sorry but you built this.

[Adrahil]

21. That's a single analysis piece.

No doubt written by a Nader supporter looking to soothe their conscience.

[pinebox]

24. Uh sure. Hillary logic in full effect

Typical excuse. It fits with your whole train of thought of every Hillary criticism is from the right wing. Go figure. Now it extends to Nader too? LOL?

[riderinthestorm]

72. NO, here's the ballot analysis that supports the facts that Nader didn't cost Gore the election

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/faculty/lewis/pdf/greenreform9.pdf

Here's another good summation.

http://disinfo.com/2010/11/debunked-the-myth-that-ralph-nader-cost-al-gore-the-2000-election/

This has been solidly debunked.

[timmymoff]

39. Try not to forget gore lost 250,000 democratic voters who switched to Bush in Florida

Epic fail at the blame game.

[Demsrule86]

43. It came down to Florida

didn't it ...Nader still thinks there is no difference between GOP and DEM even after Bush...give me a break. Nader and his crew are dead to me. I will never forgive him.

[riderinthestorm]

73. Here's the ballot analysis that supports the facts that Nader didn't cost Gore the election

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/faculty/lewis/pdf/greenreform9.pdf

Here's another good summation.

http://disinfo.com/2010/11/debunked-the-myth-that-ralph-nader-cost-al-gore-the-2000-election/

This has been solidly debunked.

[LWolf]

26. Keep saying it.

I get so sick of the Nader hate/blame game, which simply enables more anti-democratic talking points.

I voted for Gore, yet I've never been angry at, nor blamed, nor hated, those who voted for Nader. I understood why they did; I respected their right to vote their conscience.

[dflprincess]

78. Not mention a Democratic candidate and party that rolled over

and refused to back the Congressional Black Caucus when they tried to protest the theft.

[redstateblues]

80. Nader denialism lives

Of course Nader voters in FL helped elect Bush/Cheney. Naders voters need to own it

[Lizzie Poppet]

2. "If only I had known this shit before supporting him in the first place"

Suuuuuure you did...

[forjusticethunders]

7. "Nobody could possibly like Bernie and then change their mind!"

"The more people hear of him the more people like him"

Honestly this is one of the things about vanity leftism, you're never wrong no matter what. Even if you haven't won a damn thing in half a century, it's always someone else's fault.

[Lizzie Poppet]

13. Nice straw man...does it scare birds away from your garden?

I sure hope so...since as a representation of my post, it's shit.

In any case, off to Ignore with yet another low-post-count Hilltroll. Bye, Felicia.

[demwing]

53. "Vanity leftism"? If you ever supported Bernie

Then unicorns fart fairie dust

[forjusticethunders]

60. "Reject everything that doesn't fit the Narrative!" nt

[JaneyVee]

4. I used to support Bernie too. Not any more.

[Eric J in MN]

23. Please give us a link to one post where you ask

...people to vote for Bernie Sanders for president.

[virtualobserver]

27. So this is Team Hillary's "I used to support Bernie, but now I'm disillusioned" period.

Her supporters are incredibly "transparent" in a certain way.

[JaneyVee]

31. Hows this for transparency:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025786684#post1

I actually helped write Bernie's entire platform in 2014.

[virtualobserver]

37. Bernie hasn't changed......and by August of last year, you were comparing him to Ron Paul.

Your change of direction astonishes me.

[NorthCarolina]

57. There has been no

"change of direction".

That was just back at a time when the establishment wanted to ensure Bernie didn't run third-party where they would have no control over the process or the votes he gets.

[Jitter65]

38. OUCH!!! BHAMMMMMM!!!

[karynnj]

62. That did not mean you were for Bernie - it meant you did not want him to run as an independent

You wanted him instead to be the 2016 Dennis Kuchinich - running from the left, safely in the Democratic party ... and having no real impact on the race. What you certainly did not say in 2014 is that YOU would support Bernie over HRC. I assume you supported him getting say 5% of the primary vote, being in the debates period.

In fact, I see MORE agitation from the party powers to get Bernie to end his campaign now than I have ever seen in any other campaign. In 2004, Kuchinich stayed in to the convention - after Kerry had enough pledged delegates to win on them alone. In 2008, Clinton stayed in a few days after Obama had more than half the pledged delegates. Yet there was never this PUBLIC get out now, you are hurting the nominee.

Not to mention, you did not "help write" anything for Bernie. I seriously doubt that anyone working for Bernie, then or now, looked at your 2014 anonymous post on DU and said "yeah, this is a great platform". Not to mention, do you see ALL Democratic candidates refusing superPAC money?

[.99center]

75. It's too bad Hillary did the exact opposite by changing DNC rules to get more corporate donations

"Instead of him saying how to overturn CU, he should run as a Dem, and in 2016, along with ALL Dems running for re-election and new candidates, in solidarity pledge to run all campaigns using only public financing, no corporate or lobbyist donations." Bernie's entire platform? Come on now, the idea of getting money out of politics use to be a value we all stood for.

[Hortensis]

63. You'd better get used to Bernie losing support.

Between what people are seeing in him and what his overzealous supporters are revealing, but above all his attempts to weaken the Democratic Party and embroil it in strife, the days of growing support are over. The only question is how much support melts away and how quickly.

[virtualobserver]

64. keep spinning....Hillary supporters are physically attacking people...

I'm starting to fear for my safety.

[Hortensis]

68. Lol. You know, Bernie is now a national figure

who has run an important dialogue-changing campaign. Wouldn't you like him to protect the stature he has achieved so that he can build on it?

[Lucky Luciano]

29. You have always been a hyper partisan Hillary person. nt

[JaneyVee]

33. Yes, recently. But i used to be a hyperpartisan Bernie supporter.

I wrote his entire campaign platform: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025786684#post1

My sig line used to be: "BERNIE FUCKING SANDERS FOR PRESIDENT 2016!"

But that ship sailed long ago.

[timmymoff]

40. Come on Sis. We were born at night but it wasn't last night.

[99Forever]

5. Bye bye Bernie Butter.

Another one bites the dust.

[kevink077]

8. Go far away Nader

The damage you inflicted on this country cannot be forgiven. The effects will last for decades. You were perfectly content to see Bush elected. You Trojan horse jerk. (I have more names but don't want to get kicked off of here)

[forjusticethunders]

9. Oh for sure

But broken clocks etc etc

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

10. Finally, people are quoting Nader at DU! Is this Brietbart or, or sexism? lol What are we saying

these days?

[randr]

15. And Nader is such an authority at politics?

Forgotten fact of history: RN gained recognition for championing a cause that started the consumer movement; a cause for which he deserves praise.
RN sued GM over the wrongful deaths caused by the Corvairs poor design. At the same time he was reported to be a paid consultant to the Ford Motor Co.. Fords early production Falcons were equally as dangerous in design and responsible for numerous deaths as well.
The Corvair was the American answer to the VW invasion that threatened the American auto industry with cheaper more gas efficient cars way ahead of the time they became necessary.
The bring down of the Corvair models resulted in a surge of "muscle car" mentality that lasted a decade.

[stone space]

18. Remind me how many votes Nader got, again. Seems to me that Bernie has outperformed Nader.

That 2014 letter starts off with a lot of whining about not having his calls returned.

[bjo59]

82. Oh, very definitely. Nader is in no position to lecture Bernie Sanders on politics,

none at all. I found myself wondering if this letter is even real. Did Nader really write it? It's a very self absorbed letter.

[Hiraeth]

22. The Gin Blossoms wrote a song about it:

[baldguy]

25. Fuck Ralph Nader.

[snort]

30. Nader!

An expert in politics that you can depend on.

[Stallion]

41. I Wouldn't Return Ralph "the Traitor" Nader's Phone Calls Either

nm

[Mosby]

42. the jury voted without me

Post 36, that was weird, 4-2 hide.

[Starry Messenger]

45. Several people have said Sanders is difficult to work with.

Not surprised.

[The Second Stone]

54. You are no longer entitled to your own opinion and interpretation of history

This is the DU. If someone posts "wrong" after your opinion and interpretation of history, it negates everything you say. Like a small child having a tantrum, but with magical effect.

So, for example, if you were a Florida voter who voted for Nader in 2000, like 97,000 did, and someone points out that if Nader had not run, that those votes might have split for Gore quite heavily, and at least by 538 votes, all you need to do to refute that argument is either start crying, or say "wrong"! and you have presented a cogent argument that overwhelms all the "adult" talk about, well, whatever it is adults talk about when they say there is a difference between Al Gore and George Bush.

Let's remember that Al Gore was attacked by Nader supporters as a liar, corrupt and "no different than George Bush". Sound familiar? That's because the people behind the Republican party have spent a decades repeating the lie that Gore is a liar, and do so for virtually every prominent democrat. They did the same with Kerry, and the same with Obama. They do the same with Clinton. Hell, they did it with Jimmy Carter.

[PDittie]

70. Quite right.

This analysis does leave out the 300,000+ registered Florida Democrats who vote for Bush in 2000, which does seem, on first blush, to be more than 97,000 or even 538.

Jim Hightower must have been sniffing glue or something.

So then you have to think -- in order for Nader to remain at full fault -- that all of those registered Democrats, 191,000 of whom self-describe as 'liberal', just had some sort of brain cramp on Election Day 2000 and forgot to vote for Nader as the better liberal (don't think we were using 'progressive' much in 2000) option than Bush, and chose Dim Son instead.

Why, you'd have to disregard the SCOTUS decision, and also Gore's own ineptitude at losing Tennessee, his home state, or Arkansas (where Clinton was still popular despite that whole Monica deal) or New Hampshire or even West Virginia, which was reliably blue until 2000 and where Sen Robert Byrd (RIP) begged Gore to campaign (he ignored that advice). Winning any one of those four states would have made Florida -- and W -- moot.

But fuck that, Nader's an asshole for even running in the first place, you say.

Oh dear. You'd also have to skip over that whole Katherine Harris/Choicepoint/caged ex-felons thing -- tens of thousands of Democratic votes no matter how you slice it (or just consider Greg Palast a liar). You'd have to summarily dismiss Palm Beach County elections officer Theresa LePore's poorly designed butterfly ballot, where Gore lost over 6000 votes to Reform Party candidate Pat Buchanan, among its many other colossal "Murphy's Law" impacts.

Certainly those old and stupid Florida Dems should have figured this out. And who let fucking Pat Buchanan into this election anyway?!



Once you do all of that, you get to the sixth-best excuse for Gore having lost: Ralph Nader daring to run at all.

Yeah, Fuck Nader. It's all his fault.

[NCTraveler]

56. This is great.

Sanders and Nader can just keep resigning this letter and send it back and forth to one and other. It works. Hilarious.

Fuck Nader.

[ChiciB1]

65. THIS Is From MARCH 2014, I Suggest Anyone Here "Google"

Ralph Nader Bernie Sanders. The first link looks to be from WSJ and Nader talks about the parallels between when HE ran and how close they mimic what Nader had to deal with.

I got a completely DIFFERENT view from what this letter states. AND, Nader was on Thom Hartmann's Show last week or the week before and he seemed to be quite "supportive" of what Bernie Sanders is doing.

I only read one link, but the others seemed to be more of why he supported Sanders.

I might show a very different picture IF ONE wants to GOOGLE IT!

[ViseGrip]

66. Cuz Nader said he did not go after her enough!

[Ferd Berfel]

74. Even Nader? Because he was so good at it

he's an expert

[winter is coming]

76. I don't care what Nader thinks now, much less what he thought two years ago.

And anyone who thinks Nader elected W has completely forgotten all the Florida Dems who crossed over to vote for W. Somehow, they are always conveniently forgotten.

[underthematrix]

79. And this paragraph makes so

very clear why he's not the MOST qualified candidate:

How to explain your many proposed reforms in the Congress with an inability or unwillingness to networkthe numerous
civic groups here with millions of members around the nation?

The simplest answer is that you are a Lone Ranger, unable even to form a core
progressive force within the Senate (eg. Senator Sherrod Brown, Senator Elizabeth Warren, etc.).
You surely understand that without internal and external networking, there are no strategies to
deploy, beyond speechifying, putting forward amendments that go nowhere and an occasional
hearing where you incisively question witnesses.

[redstateblues]

81. I can't believe people on this site still defend Nader

WTF. He helped elect Bush Cheney. Own it Nader voters.

[bjo59]

83. Even Nader thinks Bernie is terrible at politics? Excuse me? Come on.

[Lil Missy]

84. I'm n.ot a saint Bernie fan, but fuck Nader