If the system is fair in the US, I am very sure that Mr. Sanders will win the nomination.

[akbacchus_BC]

Just hoping! He is a much better candidate for America, working class and the middle class.

[Recursion]

1. What's fair about nominating the person with fewer pledged delegates?

That might be a lot of good things, but "fair" seems like an odd one to choose

[akbacchus_BC]

2. I just feel that the Super Delegates should have waited for the runners to run

rather than endorsing one before any debates took place. We all know that Webb lost his way to the republican debate, but how on earth, the super delegates felt they needed to throw their hats in prior to Mr. Sanders or Mr. O'Malley debating Mrs. Clinton.

Honestly, the Democrats are not playing fairly, it is one sided.

[B Calm]

3. What did she have, over 500+ super delegate head start before the first vote was cast in Iowa?

[merrily]

9. Not to mention media, the debate schedule, shenanigans, etc.

The establishment has been closing ranks around Hillary since 2012, if not 2009.

[B Calm]

17. Who can forget the media reporting the DNC delegate count, always counting her Super Delegates

who haven't voted. They and the DNC painted Bernie as the loser from the beginning.

[oberliner]

20. CNN always separates out the Supers when they go to "The Big Wall"

John King always does his breakdown with just the pledged delegates.

Hillary is ahead with pledged delegates by a significant margin.

If Bernie overtakes her with the pledged delegates, he should be the nominee.

If Hillary continues to maintain her lead with pledged delegates, she should be the nominee.

Would you agree?

[B Calm]

22. Do you agree? Yes if had been done fairly, but it hasn't. I'll always believe she had an unfare

advantage from the get-go.

[oberliner]

23. I think the concept of Super D's is weird

I think the person who wins the most pledged delegates should be the nominee.

Personally, I think it should be primaries in every state as well so that more people can vote.

[lunamagica]

10. she's ahead by hundreds of PLEDGED delegates. Again, how is it fair to nominate the one

who is behind her by hundreds of PDs and million of votes?

[Demsrule86]

13. Same thing in 08

Hillary is popular in the Senate and has support, but when Obama won more pledged delegates in 08, the supers switched to him as they vote for the candidate with the most delegates. Bernie had the same chance but could not pull it off. He lost. I would say caucuses are unfair to people who work for a living and don't have time to sit around an entire day to vote in a primary. But it is the process in some states, and I don't go around calling it rigged.

[CrowCityDem]

30. Do you actually think people voted for Hillary because they saw she had SDs already?

[merrily]

8. I think things have been skewed against Bernie (or any challenger to Hillary) for years.

And I don't think all the primaries and caucuses were fair.

[oberliner]

21. What would be the fairest system for primaries and caucuses?

Taking Hillary and Bernie out of it, how do you think the process should go?

[merrily]

24. First, let's distinguish between the "system" and people rigging the system.

In my state, it was Bubba showing up at the polls. http://jackpineradicals.org/showthread.php?12103-Second-merrily-Modest-Proposal-Abolish-Presidential-Primaries&p=75930#post75930

How do you fail safe for things like that?

There was also an issue in my state of a sampling of hand-counted ballots coming out decisively for Sanders, while the machine counted ballots came out narrowly for Hillary.

However, long before I ever dreamt Sanders would run, I have spoken out against super delegates.

[oberliner]

25. Right - those are two separate questions

That's why I asked the question the way I did.

Taking the shenanigans of this cycle out of the picture, what do you think would be the best way for the nomination process to occur in the future?

[merrily]

27. Um, I replied as I did because I know why you asked it the way you did. However, my posts on this

this thread have been about the rigging of the system by people who, IMO, have abused it. I have never posted that the system itself is inherently bad, so I am not sure why you addressed your question to me.

Even if I had posted something that justified putting that question to me, forgive me, but I think it's rather silly to expect a lone message board poster to come up with the "fairest" system on the spot, and without being paid for such a task. A group of political scientists studying the matter seems much likelier to produce something meaningful.

[oberliner]

42. Ok, fair enough

Was just interested to hear different points of view.

[CorporatistNation]

44. It Is TOTALLY Fair When The Person With The "Most Delegates" Has Not Been Forthcoming On Matters of

National Security, veracity on ANY level... And here is a very solemn group[ on Morning Joe with Mika , Chuck and Andrea who had been carrying some water for Hillary as The Establishment Selection when she got caught holding the bag by the OIG.

MSNBC To the deniers... Watch THIS Video... It is not comforting to think that she may well be the Democratic Nominee...

Hillary really betrayed Andrea Mitchell... The entire context of this report was of a solemn nature... A Funeral so to speak...

Andrea Mitchell "I do not see this report as ...ANYTHING BUT... DEVASTATING!"

Chuck Todd "After this I don't think that she could get confirmed for Attorney General!"

Lots of FIBBING by Hillary here.. for more than a year!

[RogueTrooper]

4. Unfortunatly, for Bernie, most working and middle class Americans don't think he is

[beachbum bob]

5. so having 30% less popular votes and 30% less delegates that makes him the better candidate?

In what world does this happen....sanders has never been vetted and would be destroyed in weeks once the focus is placed on his record and positions

an angry old socialist will not be our nominee

[merrily]

26. Again, the popular vote count comes out that heavily in Hillary's favor only if all caucus states

combined are counted as zero votes.

[Renew Deal]

31. There was an analysis on the caucus states

Hillary also got votes in those states. Bernie nets a small amount of votes from the caucus states because few people showed up in small states. But then we should also factor in that the two caucus states that later had elections Bernie lost both. It is likely that he would have lost most of them if everyone could vote.

Besides all that, they both participated under the same rules and Bernie ended up in a 3 million vote hole which is about to get bigger.

[merrily]

32. The analysis is imaginary. If 40 people show up to caucus, no one can say how many

votes they represent.

They participated under the same rules, but counting all caucus states as zero votes is the issue, not the nature of their participation However,, with the behavior of the establishment, from the DNC to state parties to media, to "strategists and pundits to PACS, it cannot be said honestly they both had level playing fields.

[Txbluedog]

35. Two of the caucus states had primaries Hillary won

[merrily]

38. Irrelevant to the discussion. Also pretty much irrelevant to anything.

[brush]

39. Washington and Nebraska . . .

show that caucuses should be gotten rid of yesterday.

If all states had primaries Sanders would have been disposed of long ago.

And btw, in case you want to go there, Clinton has won more open primaries than Sanders also.

[merrily]

41. I don't know if they showed anything.

And, while I appreciate your eagerness to keep me from going there, the post of mine to which you are replying was in specific response to the 3,000,000 vote comment. I was not having a free-ranging discussion.

[brush]

43. Ok. How many votes did Sanders get from the caucus stateds?

Were they not factored into his vote tally nationwide — as well as Clinton's?

It is what it is. She's ahead in votes.

[Sancho]

6. Bernie had the same opportunity to earn pledged and super delegates as Hillary...

he's been in Congress for decades. Bernie lost...

- on super delegates
- on pledged delegates
- on newspaper endorsements
- on union endorsements
- on popular votes
- on money raised

It was not a close race; not near as close as 2008. Bernie knew how elections work. It was fair.

[Thinkingabout]

7. Hillary will have more than half of the pledged delegates going into the convention

So taking the Super Delegates out of the first vote in the convention Hillary will still win the vote. You can dislike the SD's they are still a part of rules Sanders agreed to follow when he agreed to when running as a DNC candidate. Rest easy knowing Hillary will have the delegates. Hillary is the best qualified candidate running.

[Demsrule86]

11. Yeah because fairness mean Sanders wins

Never mind that voter overwhelmingly chose Hillary..nine days and Bernie is out.

[LaydeeBug]

19. ^^this^^ nt

[Renew Deal]

29. They have rationalized that stealing is justified because they are morally righteous

Or some such nonsense. But Hillary winning fair and square is a moral outrage.

[Blue_Adept]

12. Which system do you refer to?

The fifty different state level contests that involve voters?

The fifty county level conventions that have decades if not hundred+ years of rules and arcane reasons that make sense based on local politics?

On the next level state conventions for the delegates that are the same?

And then the national convention?

[gollygee]

14. What fair system overturns the will of the voters?

FFS I voted for him too but it isn't fair for him to get the nomination when he loses the primary elections. There's a lot of wishful thinking around here that he'll get the nomination regardless, but don't delude yourself into thinking that wishful thinking is based on "fairness."

[RBInMaine]

15. You are living in an alternative universe. Give it up. He has lost, fair and square.

[DrDan]

16. what? - did I sleep through a bunch of late primaries won by bernie?

[LaydeeBug]

18. ....because Bernie supporters want the one with the least votes to win

*that's* how delusional they've become.

[Renew Deal]

28. If the system was fair he'd give Hillary most of the delegates from Nebraska and Washington

And if it was fair there would be no Super-Delegates for Sanders to try to flip.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. In what parallel universe does the person with millions of less vote win?

[geek tragedy]

34. Fairness means the candidate with the most votes winning.

He lost, fairly.

[Alex4Martinez]

36. In the purest sense, Bernie Sanders has already won the primary contest against Hillary Clinton.

Cosmically, spiritually, ethically and morally, there is one clear winner and it's not the former SOS.

He has won. What happens with the rest of this corrupted primary and the general election remains to be seen.

[redstateblues]

37. Cosmically-Did you mean comically?

It's funny because Bernie has not won the primary contest as you state in your headline.

[Gothmog]

40. Sanders lack support from key demographic groups in the Democratic base

For Sanders to deserve the nomination, Sanders needed to win support from these groups and he failed at this attempt