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StevieM

(10,489 posts)
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:09 PM Jun 2016

Bernie Sanders and Rigged Elections: Sometimes You Just Lose

~snip~

Toni: Bernie Sanders has benefited from the caucus system; it’s a major reason he has been competitive. If Hillary Clinton had dominated caucuses instead of primaries, I suspect that he would have complained that caucuses were flawed — that they were less democratic than primaries and less accessible to the working class.

And if Sanders had dominated with Democrats and lost among independents, instead of the other way around, I suspect we wouldn’t be hearing calls from him to open more primaries to independents.

That’s just standard politics — any other candidate would have behaved the same way. And Sanders is far less of a finger-in-the-wind politician than many. But it goes against this general idea that his side is trying to convey: that he’s pure, that he’s above politics.

Nate: I think there’s some truth to that. Along those same lines, I remember back in 2008 that Barack Obama’s support in red states was supposed to be a sign of his strength. Now Sanders supporters dismiss Clinton’s wins in red states as if they’re somehow illegitimate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/02/upshot/bernie-sanders-and-rigged-elections-sometimes-you-just-lose.html?version=meter+at+2&module=meter-Links&pgtype=article&contentId=&mediaId=&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fhl%3Den%26source%3Dhp%26biw%3D%26bih%3D%26q%3Ddemocratic%2Bdelegate%2Bcount%26gbv%3D2%26oq%3Ddemocratic%2Bdeleg%26gs_l%3Dheirloom-hp.3.0.0l10.375.3345.0.4391.16.11.0.5.5.0.141.1004.8j3.11.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..0.16.1030.CfHnCU4bqVA&priority=true&action=click&contentCollection=meter-links-click

Bernie Sanders and Rigged Elections: Sometimes You Just Lose (Original Post) StevieM Jun 2016 OP
well, if we go there, and discount red states, Bernie wins by a landslide larkrake Jun 2016 #1
But not OK, KS, UT, AK, and ID. They totally matter. geek tragedy Jun 2016 #3
As to the last quoted line, yeah Hillary supporters have done the same. morningfog Jun 2016 #2
Sure RobertEarl Jun 2016 #4
There is no such thing as a fair playing field in real life. Eko Jun 2016 #7
That's why RobertEarl Jun 2016 #8
Your question makes no sense. Eko Jun 2016 #9
Nice dancing RobertEarl Jun 2016 #10
Fair elections? Eko Jun 2016 #13
There's no "i" in con. Fuddnik Jun 2016 #44
Thanks lol. Eko Jun 2016 #47
I stated your reasons Eko Jun 2016 #14
Why dont you Eko Jun 2016 #16
Wont anwser the question? Eko Jun 2016 #22
And people who say that Eko Jun 2016 #11
Do you have any clue what democracy means? RobertEarl Jun 2016 #15
First off Eko Jun 2016 #17
Democracy means that the person with more votes wins. Tortmaster Jun 2016 #57
According to your version of fair Eko Jun 2016 #19
It's not delegitimizing the candidate. passiveporcupine Jun 2016 #27
So you agree Eko Jun 2016 #34
I must have missed that. passiveporcupine Jun 2016 #40
The one you first Eko Jun 2016 #45
You are right, passiveporcupine Jun 2016 #18
see post 19 Eko Jun 2016 #20
You are wrong passiveporcupine Jun 2016 #26
I think the equal non-partisian air time Eko Jun 2016 #33
News used to have standards passiveporcupine Jun 2016 #48
I agree Eko Jun 2016 #49
If that is all that is offered for news, people will watch it. passiveporcupine Jun 2016 #52
So you think it is not a fair playing field Eko Jun 2016 #54
Blacked him out? Eko Jun 2016 #21
Yes, blackout is hyperbole. How about virtual blackout? passiveporcupine Jun 2016 #38
Virtual blackout? Eko Jun 2016 #42
So...whatever you can get away with, then? Lizzie Poppet Jun 2016 #28
With friends like those, eh? RobertEarl Jun 2016 #29
No kidding! Lizzie Poppet Jun 2016 #31
I was told to come back when I get wise. Eko Jun 2016 #35
Wrong! RobertEarl Jun 2016 #37
It will get hidden for meta. Eko Jun 2016 #39
Damn RobertEarl Jun 2016 #41
Why dont you repost Eko Jun 2016 #43
You posted it RobertEarl Jun 2016 #46
So,,, Eko Jun 2016 #50
Oh no!!!!! Eko Jun 2016 #55
Here ya go Eko Jun 2016 #56
Yeah, Eko Jun 2016 #36
And sometimes it's just rigged. Nt azmom Jun 2016 #5
Rigged elections? RobertEarl Jun 2016 #23
K&R 👍🏼 Maru Kitteh Jun 2016 #6
So, are the Sanders supporters here starting to realize this? eastwestdem Jun 2016 #12
"I donít think thereís any way you could construct a delegate system where Bernie Sanders would win Number23 Jun 2016 #24
Sanders' impact on the Dem Party in full: Minnesota moves to presidential primary in 2020 Number23 Jun 2016 #25
You mean that as a neoliberal (neocon?) you HOPE that is his legacy. JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #30
If I had any idea what point you were even PRETENDING to be making right now, that would be Number23 Jun 2016 #32
My discourse right here is perfectly calm. As it is a discussion board I am discussing. JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #53
"Bye. Forever Ignore for you." Number23 Jun 2016 #61
Al Gore won the popular vote in 2000 by a half million, and every Democrat ... Tortmaster Jun 2016 #51
Clinton isn't whining about caucus, nor yelling cheating. So no, seabeyond Jun 2016 #58
The caucuses are about as unfair as you can get when it comes to disenfranchising voters StevieM Jun 2016 #59
Absolutely. The state of Washington highlights, significantly more voters, and for Clinton, solidly. seabeyond Jun 2016 #60
 

larkrake

(1,674 posts)
1. well, if we go there, and discount red states, Bernie wins by a landslide
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:13 PM
Jun 2016

only applies to the General, of coarse

 

morningfog

(18,115 posts)
2. As to the last quoted line, yeah Hillary supporters have done the same.
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:15 PM
Jun 2016

It's lazy to broad brush and attribute to "supporters" the comments or actions of a few.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
4. Sure
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:17 PM
Jun 2016

You just keep dreaming.

Given a fair playing field Bernie wins. The DNC was against him, the media was against him, the establishment was against him.

Not fair, so stop pretending it was.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
8. That's why
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:55 PM
Jun 2016

So very many are saying our democracy is dead.

I guess that makes some happy? Does it make you happy?

I, for one, think elections should be fair. See, I am in favor of democracy, and it fucking pisses me off when elections are not fair. You?

Eko

(6,581 posts)
9. Your question makes no sense.
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:04 AM
Jun 2016

You are saying that a party favoring a long time very influential and even famous member over one who just joined to run for president is not fair. As far as the media goes they follow what makes news, and it took a while for Sanders to make enough of a rumble to be on there frequently. Then you say establishment, which goes right back to the earlier answer for the DNC. Those are your reasons for why it was not fair. Would a election between you and Sanders be fair? Of course not.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
10. Nice dancing
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:07 AM
Jun 2016

You said it wasn't fair, then you state why it's not fair and you refuse to even answer the question about if you favor fair elections.

With friends like you who needs neo-cons?

Eko

(6,581 posts)
13. Fair elections?
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:10 AM
Jun 2016

Last edited Fri Jun 3, 2016, 01:25 AM - Edit history (1)

In a perfect world I do, but what are you going to do? Somehow give mass amnesia to all the democrats in the country so they forget a Democratic icon?

Eko

(6,581 posts)
47. Thanks lol.
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 01:27 AM
Jun 2016

Im pretty bad at typing and spelling. Why doesn't the spell check work in the reply title by the way? Pretty sure I am a liberal by the way.

Eko

(6,581 posts)
11. And people who say that
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:08 AM
Jun 2016

is why democracy is dead is the reason it is dying, because unless it is democracy in a vacuum then to them it is not fair and they opt out of it, hence so many independents and libertarians who have no clue how our politics actually work.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
15. Do you have any clue what democracy means?
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:11 AM
Jun 2016

I don't see any evidence you do.

Unfair elections, big money politics, a bought media.... none are in any way shape or form conducive to democracy. Yet here you are making excuses for such.

Tortmaster

(382 posts)
57. Democracy means that the person with more votes wins.
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 02:14 AM
Jun 2016

President Obama beat Mitt Romney by 5 million votes in the popular vote category, and that included all of the Democrats, Republicans, weirdo Libertarians, lazy Greens &tc.

Secretary Clinton is winning by 3 million votes in the Democratic Primary! And we haven't finished voting yet!

Democracy is working fine; your guy just got smoked.

As for your argument upthread that it wasn't a fair playing field, I agree. Secretary Clinton had to beat back Republicans, single-issue NRA voters, Libertarians, anarcho-Libertarians, lazy Greens and tens of millions of SuperPAC dollars. She faced ratfucking from the Republicans, while Senator Sanders got the ratfluffing treatment.

Your guy had every break in the book, including caucuses, open primaries, tons of money (including money spent indirectly on his behalf by Republican SuperPACs), and not getting deeply vetted until his New York Daily News interview.

Eko

(6,581 posts)
19. According to your version of fair
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:27 AM
Jun 2016

Two unknown people who have never done anything of consequence or joined any political party and that have no money or backing should run for the democratic nomination for president. Neither of them can have any standing with the DNC or the media. I think we all want fair elections, yours just seems a tad bit unrealistic and when you use that to somehow de-legitimatize the candidate running against the one you prefer because they are loosing it comes across as very naive, self serving and petty.

Eko

(6,581 posts)
45. The one you first
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 01:21 AM
Jun 2016

answered to.
Change to post 19 that you answered to, it wasn't actually your first response to me.

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
18. You are right,
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:26 AM
Jun 2016

Not in a country where the establishment is owned and controlled by the Koch Brothers, wall street and other big money. Not in a country where media conglomerates owned by wealthy conservatives build up candidates that they support and tear down those they don't. There is no fair and balanced in reporting any more. Hell, they blacked Bernie out for a full six months.

And not in a party where the democratic party establishment (congress and DNC) who are all owned by the oligarchs and corporations and MIC, decide who the president will be, instead of letting the people decide.

But in spite of all that, Bernie is doing a bang-up job of shaking up a system he wasn't even supposed to be able to make a dent in.

We aren't through yet. Even if Bernie doesn't get the nomination, we are not done. We've had it and we're not going to take it any more.

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
26. You are wrong
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:46 AM
Jun 2016

In a fair election, all candidates would get equal non-partisan air time (publicly paid) so people could learn who they are. Too many people are not on-line all the time seeing all the info out here. They are glued to their TV's. And yet you think it's OK that the media can cover one candidate over the others in the race?

Bernie started getting loud and excited crowds early on and he was completely ignored. And Hillary started with a huge lead in delegates, which were continuously given out by the news as her winning the race from the very beginning. Lots of people just go with the brand name, especially if they are winning. Superdelegates should never be used early in the race by the media to sway the public vote. Only at the convention.

Sorry, but your idea of a system that may not be fair but is just the way it is...that's not the kind of "way" I want. Too many people are not happy with the way this country is going and we are going to change it. You can kick and scream and say it's not fair that a revolution isn't respecting the establishment...boo hoo. We are starting now by helping down ticket progressives to win and we will keep doing that until we can change congress enough to actually see some possibilities for change. And we are going to find another leader like Bernie and we are coming back and we are going to get the money out of politics and are going to have people in congress who are responsible to the voter, not the lobbyist.

We are going to make this country great again (gag...why did Trump have to use that)...because we are going to bring back FDR democrats.

Like I said. We are fed up and we're not going to take it any more. We may lose the first battle, but we'll be in it for the long run.

Eko

(6,581 posts)
33. I think the equal non-partisian air time
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:58 AM
Jun 2016

sounds great,,,,, as to how much of a difference that would make I think we might disagree. Personally I love C-SPAN, but America loves crap like the apprentice and finding Bigfoot way more. I think your equal air time would not make a whit of difference at all. The media just gives the public what they want, I used to rail against the media till I learned that, I used to rail against politics till I learned that. We really have the media and government we want, and we are collectively very stupid. There is a reason why voter turnout was so low in 2014, and a reason why independents were so low then. They like finding bigfoot more than actually participating in elections.

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
48. News used to have standards
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 01:27 AM
Jun 2016

despite what people might have wanted. Now it's all based on ratings, so ti completely depends on "what the audience will watch". But it's a two-edged sword. The worse journalism and programming got, the more people got used to it and now they just expect it.

At one time, news anchors, assisted by newswriters and producers, went into the field, got the news, wrote it, edited it, and then broadcast it. They sat in anchor chairs because they were excellent journalists. But broadcast journalism—and those two words should seldom be put next to each other in the same sentence—with a few network and regional exemptions devolved into yet another mess of Reality TV.


Dan Rather—who for more than a half-century has been everything a news journalist should be—explains what has contributed to the decline not just TV news but all journalism as well: “Media consolidation, the corporate news environment, ‘message discipline,’ media cowardice, news-for-profit, celebrity fluff, ‘so-called human interest stories,’ sensational trials, gossip, ‘news you can use,’ [and] partisan shouting matches.”

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/7/21/1112295/-The-Fluff-Factor-Today-s-Journalism

We need to fix this. Again, big money and conglomerates have allowed this to happen.

We can't change this until we get someone in the white house with the courage to tackle big money.

Eko

(6,581 posts)
49. I agree
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 01:32 AM
Jun 2016

But how to do it? People don't want the news, they want entertainment. How many people do you know that watch CSPAN? I think I am the only one I know. What are we going to do, enforce everybody to watch a daily segment of balanced and nonpartisan news?

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
52. If that is all that is offered for news, people will watch it.
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 01:48 AM
Jun 2016

Maybe we need to have publicly funded non-partisan, non-entertainment news, and all the other crap can be turned back into reality tv shows for all I care. Break up the conglomerates and let them become opinion or talk shows instead, but not called news and not connected to the news stations.

I haven't watched tv for at least 15 years because I couldn't hack the crap. I think there are a lot of people like me who found the internet gives us what we were missing (along with a lot of crap, but we can sort it out).

If news had standards that had to be met to qualify for public funding and all other phony news programs had to be labeled talk shows instead, maybe people would actually break away from that to watch some real news once in a while.

Of course the real news programs would have to be in 10 minute spurts at best because of short attention spans now.

Hey I've got it...in between regular programming, you get a three minute burst of real news several times, just like advertising. Maybe some subliminal messages in there too.

Obviously I don't have the answers, but I don't believe it's impossible to find some. Someone just needs to be willing to try. But like I said, it depends on breaking up the big money and conglomerates. And the FCC needs to establish some stiff standards for journalism and actual fair and balanced news.

Eko

(6,581 posts)
54. So you think it is not a fair playing field
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 02:04 AM
Jun 2016

and don't have the answers to fix it "Obviously I don't have the answers,". Me neither. I am open to things that will fix this, but I am afraid that we would have to first change human nature to fix this, until we can, I will operate in reality and do the best I can. When things like CSPAN are as popular as fox or nbc then we will have made some headway, I just have no idea how to get to that point without brainwashing most of our country or regulating the news to the point that we have ended the freedom of the press and I am not a supporter of those at all.

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
38. Yes, blackout is hyperbole. How about virtual blackout?
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 01:13 AM
Jun 2016

Because it's actually worse than that, when all the major TV networks are pushing Hillary and tearing down Bernie, it's worse than having no coverage at all. And he has been getting coverage this year, but in 2015, he got next to nothing. And even this year, the coverage of his huge rallies has not been covered by major networks much, if at all. It is in local newspapers, but not on TV. You can find lots of info on the internet, but mostly young people use the internet as a news source. Most older people are still glued to TV and cable.


Eko

(6,581 posts)
42. Virtual blackout?
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 01:18 AM
Jun 2016

Had to laugh at that. There is actually way more negative news coverage of Clinton than Sanders so its a bit hard to know if there has been a positive or negative effect on either. I do agree that there should be more coverage of Sanders though.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
28. So...whatever you can get away with, then?
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:48 AM
Jun 2016

Golly, what a lovely society that approach makes for!

Eko

(6,581 posts)
35. I was told to come back when I get wise.
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 01:05 AM
Jun 2016

In a private message, I was told to not post here. Wonder by who? So I did. Because I dont respond to childish threats.

Eko

(6,581 posts)
39. It will get hidden for meta.
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 01:14 AM
Jun 2016

But just to show what you have done here it is. I'll take the hide to show what you said, worth it.

RobertEarl
Come back when you get wise

Mail Message
I am done helping look so dumb in public.

Believe me, I am doing you a favor. But if this message doesn't sink in, post it in the thread. I dare you.


How is that not telling me to not post here?

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
46. You posted it
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 01:23 AM
Jun 2016

Why should I post it again? I didn't think you would, but you did and it may be meta but only OP's get meta'd out.

Eko

(6,581 posts)
36. Yeah,
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 01:10 AM
Jun 2016

Sorry someone has been a influential and prominent person in the party she has been a member of for a long time, sorry the news tends to follow what they deem important and people that regularly make news actually news. That is anything you can get away with. What a joke.

 

eastwestdem

(1,220 posts)
12. So, are the Sanders supporters here starting to realize this?
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:10 AM
Jun 2016

It's hard to work so hard and lose, but that happens to everyone who becomes involves in politics at some time or another. The repubs won the first three presidential elections after I was old enough to vote. It was almost enough to make me lose interest in political issues altogether!

Number23

(24,544 posts)
24. "I donít think thereís any way you could construct a delegate system where Bernie Sanders would win
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:43 AM
Jun 2016

the nomination. He lost by far too much."

Yep.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
30. You mean that as a neoliberal (neocon?) you HOPE that is his legacy.
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:55 AM
Jun 2016

Neoliberals and New Democrats hate progressive politics.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
32. If I had any idea what point you were even PRETENDING to be making right now, that would be
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:58 AM
Jun 2016

a miracle.

If all this is rage, shrieking, spitting and spewing was actually doing something for your candidate and his chances at winning, I'd understand it. But it ain't which makes all of this INCREDIBLY e ntertaining.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
53. My discourse right here is perfectly calm. As it is a discussion board I am discussing.
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 01:58 AM
Jun 2016

If you think I would stop discussing because we near the end of the primary season, that is quite silly. I don't turn off my sensibilities of progressive politics once we have a nominee.

Bye. Forever Ignore for you.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
61. "Bye. Forever Ignore for you."
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 09:11 PM
Jun 2016

I love it when folks who do nothing but chase after folks and instigate one idiotic, pointless argument after another announce that they are putting OTHER folks on ignore.

Bye honey! Don't let my dancing and joyous tone confuse you. I'm really devastated that someone who does nothing but insult everyone and argue about fuck all from sun up to sun down is putting me on ignore. Just... devastated.

Tortmaster

(382 posts)
51. Al Gore won the popular vote in 2000 by a half million, and every Democrat ...
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 01:45 AM
Jun 2016

... believes that that election was stolen. Half a million votes is a lot of votes, but that was a national election, which included all of the Democrats, all of the independents and all of the weirdo Libertarians, and all of the lazy Greens, and all of the asshole Republicans.

Secretary Clinton is winning in a private party primary by 3 million votes, and we still haven't finished voting! "Rigged" is funny.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
58. Clinton isn't whining about caucus, nor yelling cheating. So no,
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 07:00 AM
Jun 2016

"any other candidate would have behaved the same way". Actually, I am not recalling any of our Democrats behaving this way. The tantrums seem to be unique to Sanders.

StevieM

(10,489 posts)
59. The caucuses are about as unfair as you can get when it comes to disenfranchising voters
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:14 PM
Jun 2016

and producing results that do not reflect the will of the people.

We saw that in states that held both a primary and a caucus when they went on to produce very different results.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
60. Absolutely. The state of Washington highlights, significantly more voters, and for Clinton, solidly.
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:19 PM
Jun 2016

Yet, have the supporters and especially Clinton been whining about the unfairness? Our election process is what it is and for decades candidates have gone thru the process, without false accusations and without tantrums. Bringing someone outside the party and allow them the courtesy of running under our resources, and he abuses the privilege.

To demand to change it while in the process instead of advocating change at a later date is the height of irresponsible.

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