2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhat does Bernie Sanders really want? What he said he wants. Read his speeches. Go to his website
And check his consistent record in Congress going back 25 years if you really don't know.
If anyone on DU doesn't know where Bernie stands on the issues they either haven't been paying attention or they are just using that political line to slam Bernie and his supporters even more! That sure encourages unity against Trump!
Demsrule86
(68,768 posts)We have a GOP Congress...maybe you all should investigate how laws are made.
QC
(26,371 posts)Think of how both Clinton and Obama are now talking about expanding Social Security. That was a fringe idea a year ago--the only person talking about it was a self-declared socialist from Vermont.
Everything we take for granted was once a fringe idea until people started talking about it first and then organizing for it. Women voting, public education, the minimum wage, the 40-hour week--all of those were far out crazy stuff until they weren't.
Honestly, sometimes I wonder if Homer Simpson is on the DNC now....
Demsrule86
(68,768 posts)All this stuff is great...who doesn't believe in it. But you have to have Congress to do it. The only thing that matters this year unless we have a landslide victory and take the House and Senate (probably will get the Senate)is the courts. We can not allow the GOP to pack the courts.
QC
(26,371 posts)The Supreme Court struck down early attempts at outlawing child labor. The first women who tried to vote were beaten and force-fed. People like my grandfather, a United Mine Worker in the bad old days of company goons, had to fight for the 40-hour week and a pension. Medgar Evers was shot down in his own driveway for registering black voters. And so on.
All of the things that we take for granted as parts of a civilized life began as aspirations. I take your point about practicality, but we need both of these things. Yes, we need to think about the mechanics of getting something now, but we also need to show people that there's a chance at even better things later.
Demsrule86
(68,768 posts)because of huge wins by Democrats so if you have aspirations, roll up you sleeves and lend a hand in order to elect Democrats...and I have news for you...most of us have long had those aspirations...Bernie acts like he discovered something new...he didn't.
Demsrule86
(68,768 posts)We had a way to enact those things. At the moment with Congress and the gerrymander, we don't. All this energy fighting Democrats...when you should be fighting Republicans. My Grandpa was shot at for the right to unionize...different times.
highprincipleswork
(3,111 posts)"But we're going up against the Bulls and they've got Michael Jordan and then there's Scottie Pippin and ooh Dennis Rodman, boohoo, they're so scary! You just can't beat them!"
OK, these players may be before your time, but they were awesome, and still they lost some and eventually they were out of the game. That's life. You win some and you lose some but you don't win any if you don't try and work together but stay at home with the boohoos.
Demsrule86
(68,768 posts)Demsrule86
(68,768 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)The GOP has so much power because they push, and push and push on their goals, they sell them to the public -- and they NEVER GIVE UP.
They don't whine about those mean old Democrats. They tell the Democrats "Screw You. This is what we want and we're going to fight you for it."
They don't get EVERYTHING they want -- but cumulatively over the last 40 years they have gotten a much larger share of what they want than Liberals have. And when they lose, they refuse to lose.
Democrats have dcone one of two things. Either cower in the corner and only venture out with "75 Percent Compromise to the GOP" which they believe the GOP might possibly maybe accept.......And/ or they take the attitude "if you can't beat 'em join 'em" and give us scams that have been given the Seal of Approval by Corporate America.
As a result the Conservative Agenda has advanced steadily, while the Liberal Agenda has been struggling on life-support since the 80's.
Demsrule86
(68,768 posts)Do you even know how the government works? The GOP has the numbers. Thank God we have the president, and they don't have a filibuster-proof Senate...but should they win the presidency, they will abolish the filibuster and go for broke. Tell me concretely what Dems could do given the Congressional makeup. And I have never in my lifetime seen such obstruction. As soon as the election is over, it will start all over...God help us if the GOP has all branches of government...thanks to Bernie. Personally, I think the Dems have done a great job...they save the economy and gave us health care. Do I want single payer..sure. However, Obamacare is what we could get given Lieberman and Kennedy's death...and it has saved thousands of lives.
Demsrule86
(68,768 posts)We have health care...for the first time...not perfect but we have it and can build on it...Retail can not force people make $20,000 to work massive amounts of overtime for no pay. Obama save the economy...when the GOP had every intention of destroying it. These things matter...so tell me how we get even one of the things Bernie advocates through Congress as it stands now.
QC
(26,371 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,035 posts)Of course on the flip side if we had Congress the argument flips to "ground work needed to be laid years ago if we wanted to do ____" and you can't get from where we are to where you want to go".
The reality is you folks want what the right wing wants without the hateful bigotry and no sense playing hurt or denying because the "Free Stuff" chorus has been heard loud and clear.
Demsrule86
(68,768 posts)If Congress flips then get rid of the filibuster and go for it...but short of that...
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)Also it seems that Bernie has done little over the last 30 years to build that support. And he's not laying out any plans that I've seen on how to build it going forward.
w4rma
(31,700 posts)They are trying to figure out how to replicate his fundraising machine. They are looking at the issues he proposed and how they can, as candidates, run on these issues.
The only people who aren't taking any of their cues from Sanders are the folks who think that they can continue getting the vast majority of their campaign contributions from strings-attached super-wealthy sources - and are fine with that.
Even the GOP is trying to figure out how to peel off some of Sanders's supporters. Sanders voters are the kingmakers in the general election of 2016.
Btw, you're either lying or ignorant by saying that Sanders didn't get much done. He got so much done that he was labeled the Amendment King.
lancer78
(1,495 posts)will be PoC this election cycle. They were not Sanders supporters.
Response to lancer78 (Reply #54)
w4rma This message was self-deleted by its author.
w4rma
(31,700 posts)But Democrats LOSE general elections when the vote is suppressed.
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)It's also not voter suppression if the general election gets called when Alaska and Hawaii or even the West Coast still have their polls open because of a candidate already reaching 270.
lancer78
(1,495 posts)complains about his vote being suppressed, that person is making a mockery of people who have been truly disenfranchised. Like that 86 y/o AA woman in Tennessee, who had been voting for 60 years in every election, being barred from the voting booth because she lacked a photo ID.
w4rma
(31,700 posts)Political hacks who would be fine with disenfranchising PoCs who disagreed with them.
lancer78
(1,495 posts)I am not a big fan of HRC. Hell, I started an OP "Look out Billary, Sanders is getting mighty!" It got hid fast
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)BTW who was it that labeled Bernie the Amendment King?
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Demsrule86
(68,768 posts)Be still my heart...why Obama and Clinton are talking about expanding social security...the reality is they will have to fight like hell to save it from the GOP ...but you all just know...it could happen if the mean Dems just did it already...wag their fingers and presto...it is done.
senz
(11,945 posts)People don't hate him like they do Hillary.
merrily
(45,251 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)can change every two years. When it tended to stay Democratic was when it included a healthy New Deal contingent.
Moreover, Presidents do have a lot to do with getting the laws they want passed. People can deny that reallity all they want, but, again, disproves the denial.
God, these false memes, posted week and week out, as though they were not only true, but carved in stone, is getting old.
senz
(11,945 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)OMG, do I miss her!
Anyway, she posted over and over that the point was not to convince us of anything. It was solely to disrupt/prevent discussion that might be useful to us.
While we're trying to convince people we will never convince, we are not discussing how to improve anything and we sure are not taking action. I'm over it.
I am also over article after article that "reveals" another version or another example of what we already know and what could not be more clear to an honest person: the system is fixed and not in favor of the majority of Americans. I get already geniuses. If you really want to be paid for your commentary, comment on what the average American can do about it.
senz
(11,945 posts)I got lost a lot and tended to stick to the front page and lightly stumble through some of the threads without focusing on individuals. I knew nothing of the jury system and had no idea there were flame wars. I got a hide months before I understood about alerts, juries, the five hide rule, etc. For a long time I wasn't aware of the tabs that show "my posts," etc. and couldn't find threads I'd posted in previously. It was so confusing. I didn't get heavily involved here until Bernie announced and then it began to open up for me, perhaps from pure motivation. Once I grasped the layout and operations, I was blown away by how beautifully and intricately programmed it is. One person who helped me feel more at home here was bmus, and after I got to know her, other people came into focus and I began forming impressions of them.
I've seen mention of woo me with science and wish I'd been aware of her when she was here. I never know how to deal with those whose motive is to disrupt/prevent discussion (perhaps that's where ignore comes in handy). It's pretty much the definition of troll. Sometimes it's obviously an act of hostility and disruption, e.g. Hill supporters who pop in to say something inane and demeaning of the entire discussion. A good example is a comment toward the bottom of this thread. Sometimes it might just be someone who impulsively blurts out whatever they're thinking. I plead guilty to having done that occasionally.
I think sometimes people, myself included, will repeat the obvious for the simple purpose of getting the truth out to the public, to anybody who happens to stop by and lurk a while. I think of web forums like this one or Facebook as "media" capable of influencing the national conversation and thus the national consciousness, so there's a certain responsibility involved. Yes, I believe that. I know for a fact that one can get memes started by putting them out on "the internet" a few times. Because of what I studied in grad school, I pretty much always see public communication -- like this -- as potentially rhetorical. Now private communication -- private forums, email -- is a different thing.
Okay, I'm getting fatigued.
merrily
(45,251 posts)though it was not my intention. I'm intending to be very clear, or somewhat funny, or save myself some typing. So I make up a term that seems to me to fit that need. Then, sometimes, I start seeing what I posted outside the board I posted it on, probably because some people post on more than one board. Given enough time, it becomes part of the general vocabulary. That's never happened to me with an entire concept though. Just a name or verb or whatever.
lancer78
(1,495 posts)But there has never been this level of Obstruction by the Congress, Look at the number of filibusters. Out of 1,726 motions filed in the last 100 years, 601 have been filed while Obama has been President.
MattP
(3,304 posts)Demsrule86
(68,768 posts)lunamagica
(9,967 posts)lunamagica
(9,967 posts)nodding at each others words, agreeing on everything...very telling.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)It is about the issues. He felt that in terms of a number of issues, we were reaching the point of no return.
djean111
(14,255 posts)QC
(26,371 posts)is how the idea of being involved in politics because you want to make changes in the world so that people's lives can be better is so far outside the mental universe of so many people here that it never occurs to them.
They approach politics like obnoxious drunk fans approach football--as a chance to cheer their team and witness the humiliation of the other one.
And it wasn't always this way here. It's sad.
QC
(26,371 posts)When I first came here, in 2001, I would tell people things I had learned on DU and they would say, "Gee, how do you know all this stuff?" and I will tell them about Democratic Underground.
Now, it's more a place to watch car wrecks.
It's sad.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)QC
(26,371 posts)virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)shows just how out of touch that they have become.
The thing that disturbs me most about a Hillary candidacy is that her words are based on how things will "play".....I can't really figure out what she actually believes.
My view is that when you wake up each morning thinking about how you can spin reality in your favor, you lose touch with any actual beliefs. The only thing that you believe in is your personal "rightness". Hillary herself is the answer, not any particular belief or policy.
QC
(26,371 posts)that politicians would hold to it, it's double sad that ordinary voters, who aren't getting the money and power because of that nihilism would hold it too.
I mean, I can understand why a person would gladly abandon principle in exchange for wealth, power, fame, etc., but to sell out just so you can be shitty to people on a message board? WTF is up with that?
senz
(11,945 posts)I think the same dynamic may come into play with corporate democrats and liberal democrats. Those who value money and status seem to be coarser than those who value fairness and egalitarianism.
QC
(26,371 posts)in terms of character.
A conservative in a blue shirt is not much different than a conservative in a red shirt.
senz
(11,945 posts)I can't stand 'em no matter what color shirt they're wearing.
senz
(11,945 posts)Your insights into Hillary's modus operandi are quite good. I've sensed this about her and it makes me nervous to think of her anywhere near the Oval Office.
senz
(11,945 posts)I've stuck it out because of the casual readers, lurkers, and possible journalists who visit here. But I am so glad it is coming to an end. With the exception of some good issue threads a while back and the Bernie Group, it has been like wading through garbage.
QC
(26,371 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)Two very different Democratic candidates bring out people's innate differences. Although that doesn't explain the bot phenomenon.
I think Hill brings out bad things in her followers.
QC
(26,371 posts)But there's also the fact that a huge new cohort showed up here in 2008 and were allowed to run roughshod over anyone they pleased. They set an ugly new tone for the place and for some reason the management made no effort to get them to behave--while kicking out a good many people who objected to being taunted, mocked, bullied, and stalked.
Does all this sound familiar?
senz
(11,945 posts)This past year must have been a really awful deja vu experience for old-timers.
It's hard to believe that those who behave that way are Democrats. But the meaning of "Democrat" has been horribly corrupted by the Third Way/ DLC/ Blue Dog contingent. They're just like Republicans: competitive, triumphalist, condescending, insulting, bullying. No soul, no depth. I wonder where they came from, how they got here?
I'm sorry for what was lost in this community. Maybe it can be recreated elsewhere.
QC
(26,371 posts)which is that open and blatant homophobia is less tolerated here than it was then.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)that is how many treat politics, I cover this shit, it si deadly serious.
anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)I'm not short of utopian ideas myself. But as I have been trying to explain for months, Bernie's plans for how to attain these goals seem disappointingly thin.
senz
(11,945 posts)He has laid out his proposals here: https://berniesanders.com/issues/
He explains how he pays for them here: https://berniesanders.com/issues/how-bernie-pays-for-his-proposals/
He got a lot done in his 25 years in the U.S. legislature and he was a busy, active 4-term mayor before that.
He knows how government works, he knows how to get things done, and he works well on both sides of the aisle.
larkrake
(1,674 posts)at least Bernie has allies in both chambers. They all hate Hillary with few exceptions
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)What that means is everyone in. Everyone involved.
The royals do not want democracy. It took a revolution in the late 1700's to get a form of democracy up and running and the royals have been its greatest enemy.
senz
(11,945 posts)It's a foreign concept to them.
larkrake
(1,674 posts)Bernie could lay groundwork, but not get much through. Ryan is the dangerous one. Bernie wont cave to him, Hill will swap with Ryan. I see a bleak future
senz
(11,945 posts)Bernie knows his way around Congress. He got a lot done even during Republican administrations. I could see him getting a little here, a little there from Ryan without selling out the people at all.
Yes, Hill would swap. I was amazed when she said not too long ago that she could compromise on abortion. She doesn't seem to think about the lives of those affected by these things.
Don't feel so bleak; she does not yet have the nomination. Anything could happen. Due to her own reckless actions, she has some heavy stuff hanging over her.
larkrake
(1,674 posts)Response to imagine2015 (Original post)
rjsquirrel This message was self-deleted by its author.
Lunabell
(6,133 posts)Furthermore a lot of us care. Bernie has significantly changed things already. "Bernie Dems" have been elected to represent the Democratic party in November. Bernie has changed the conversation about minimum wage. Bernie has gotten the Dems to change on TPP. Bernie may have a key position in HRC's campaign should she be the official nominee.
I know you get angry at a lot of Bernie or Busters who joined the party just to vote for Bernie. But I am a lifelong Democrat and see this as an opportunity to save the party from corporate control. Let's face it. Bernie has changed the conversation and has a seat at the table whether you like it or not.
livetohike
(22,165 posts)George Eliot
(701 posts)That's why he asked us to send money. I did. Lucy, Tim, Russ, Zephyr, Paul Clements, Pramila Jaypal, Eric Kingson. This is how we change the status quo and if any of these candidates win, they owe Bernie. I'm not rich but this is how passionate we Bernie supporters are about changing the country for the better. It is not about one person. It is about all of us. I know whbere Bernie stands on issues and I stand with him. I hope Hillary can command that kind of action. These are people she will need if she becomes our President.
senz
(11,945 posts)Hillary already has a huge network of the wealthiest and most powerful in this country. I've seen nothing in her lifestyle, over the 35 or so years that I've been aware of her, to indicate that she is the least bit interested in changing the status quo or encouraging young progressives who are trying to do so.
I strongly agree with your aims and values but seriously doubt Hillary shares them. We know for sure Bernie does, but the establishment has been doing everything they can to get rid of him.
BTW, welcome to DU.
Lunabell
(6,133 posts)than Trump's. And her message was influenced by Bernie during this campaign. If he endorses her I am ready to campaign for her.
So this Bernie fan will be on her side if he has a bigger seat at the table. He will be able to have a huge influence on the Democratic platform. Then we will have HRC under the gun, so to speak.
Please don't leave the party if Bernie doesn't win the nomination. He has already won more than was thought possible just a few months ago. We need more Bernie Dems!!!!!
George Eliot
(701 posts)If anything is to be accomplished progressively, we need more progressive democrats in Congress. And the people for whom Bernie advocates will be true progressives. I've been disappointed in the current progressive caucus. Haven't you?
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)Lunabell
(6,133 posts)If you were in the Democratic party before Bernie's run for the presidency, please consider staying in the party and continuing the fight.
We need the progressive left wing of the party to win it back. Bernie has already changed the conversation. Bernie and his message now have seats at the table. This is a party of the working class and we need your voice. A fractured party will have very little power to defeat billionaire interests that now rule the rethuglicans.
If this party is good enough for Bernie and he endorses Hillary Clinton, I am in it all the way!
senz
(11,945 posts)after the dirty campaign she ran capped by the hideous AP announcement the night before six primaries in which Bernie, who was only 286 delegates behind, was expected to win enough delegates to at least pull even.
They fixed that.
I don't know what he will decide to do, but he wouldn't be human if he didn't feel, on some level, tremendous contempt for her at this point.
However, I agree that it would be excellent if progressives could take over the Democratic Party.
brooklynite
(94,911 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)June 4th, three days before the six primaries --
<snip>
http://www.inquisitr.com/3166572/bernie-sanders-erased-hillary-clintons-15-point-lead-in-california-and-could-be-headed-to-a-bigger-coup-there-is-evidence-that-clintons-nervous-superdelegates-are-ready-to-jump-ship/
The premature announcement of Hill's unearned "presumptive" status was deliberate voter suppression to rescue Hillary.
It, and many other oddities in this primary, will be investigated.
brooklynite
(94,911 posts)Setting aside NJ, Bernie would have to win 80% of the California vote, and even then he'd be behind.
Mike__M
(1,052 posts)I'll watch how the state convention goes, and the national convention. Honestly, right now it looks like change will be more likely pushed from outside. We'll see.
Lunabell
(6,133 posts)I guess I am also waiting on the convention and what Senator Sanders has to say. I just can't see leaving this party yet. I still want to fight for it!
VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)As far as I'm concerned, there needs to be a movement from outside that shakes the party out of their kneeling supplication to Mammon. Something that ain't coming as long as the party has their thumbs on us.
riversedge
(70,414 posts)frazzled
(18,402 posts)What if the person who came in second had been a real conservadem--Jim Webb, for instance. Just because he "wants" stuff, would that entitle him to demand those things be made the centerpiece of the winning nominee?
If Bernie wants all this, great. Let him go fight for them in the Senate. But he's not running this campaign. And even if a portion of what he wants is adopted in some form into the platform, it really means little: it doesn't mean we'll get any of them. Because we live in a democracy that doesn't have a strongarm dictator who imposes laws regardless of a mixed Congress.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)...with a sea of delegates calling for these things. Imagine some of these things making it into the platform, and imagine the Democratic nominee verbally committing to them.
But I'm not the only one.