Kaine v Vilsack v Perez

[OnDoutside]

Tim Kaine

Age 58 (in St. Paul, MN)

Humble beginnings, (father was a welder)

Pros

Economics Graduate
Went to Harvard Law School
Lawyer for 17 years specializing in helping people who were denied housing on the basis of race or disability.
Mayor of Richmond
Lt. Governor of Virginia
Governor of Virginia
US Senator (Committee on Armed Services, Committee on the Budget, Committee on Foreign Relations)
Fluent Spanish speaker
More or less Pro Choice, though is privately anti.
Pro Obamacare
Kaine was the lead lawyer in the suit that established Home Inc

Cons

Boring
Oversaw 11 executions as Governor, though privately against.
Took him until 2013 to support Gay Marriage
Tom Vilsack

Age 65

Humble beginnings, having been adopted

Pros
Lawyer
Mayor of Mount Pleasant, Iowa
Iowa State Senator
Governor of Iowa (2 terms)
Secretary of Agriculture

Cons
Age
As Iowa Governor, Tom Vilsack was a leading advocate for Monsanto, genetic engineering, and factory farming.
Boring

Tom Perez

Age 54

Son of Dominican immigrants (father a Doctor, mother was a daughter of Dominican Ambassador to US)

Pros
Went to Harvard Law School
1989 to 1995, he worked as a federal prosecutor in the Department of Justice's Civil Rights Division.
From 1995 until 1998, Perez worked as Democratic Massachusetts Senator Ted Kennedy's principal adviser on civil rights, criminal justice, and constitutional issues
For the final two years of the Clinton administration, he worked as the Director of the Office for Civil Rights at the United States Department of Health and Human Services
county council of Montgomery County, Maryland
Maryland Secretary of Labor
Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights
Secretary of Labor
Fluent Spanish obviously, should appeal to Hispanics not already voting Dem

Cons
Perez spearheaded the legalization of slot machines in the Maryland
Doesn't have major election experience

[FSogol]

1. More or less pro-choice? Kaine has a 100% Lifetime rating from Planned Parenthood & NARAL

[OnDoutside]

4. Yes, but it has to be said that he is privately anti-abortion. There's a contradiction there.

[FSogol]

6. NARAL doesn't seem to mind and how does that differ from Biden's views?

[OnDoutside]

7. It's not a judgement.

[FSogol]

10. Your entire post is a judgement. Reason? Your use of "boring"

Last edited Fri Jul 15, 2016, 04:20 PM - Edit history (1)

Boring is subjective. There is no scale to measure units of boredom.

[OnDoutside]

41. Kaine said he was boring. I fell asleep listening to Vilsack, but apart from that ...

[Expecting Rain]

42. Kaine himself says he is "boring"

It shows he has a sense of humor as well, but charisma is not his strong suit.

His audition opening for Hillary yesterday did not go well IMO. I watched the event online and kept thinking it was quite a contrast with Warren in Ohio.

And HRC was way better behind Warren that she was in the deflated speech post-Kaine. He may be a lovely guy, but...

[FSogol]

43. The Clintons have known/worked with Tim Kaine for years. The idea that he has to

audition is ridiculous. She'll either pick him or won't pick him, but he'll still be appearing with her in VA on many campaign events.

As I said in another thread:

Maybe HRC will find a circus performer to entertain you.

[Bluenorthwest]

12. Biden's faith caused him to be a DOMA supporter deluxe, later he allows himself

language suggesting he was never that man, but he was that man.

[Arkana]

34. Being privately pro-life but politically pro-choice means you're pro-choice.

You are in favor of allowing women to have a choice.

[underpants]

23. Kaine is a devout Catholic

So if he is "privately anti-abortion"
that makes sense but publicly he has worked to keep choice open.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. Is it? I suspect that's the position of a lot of leaders and voters.

I believe in a culture of life, from the womb to the tomb. I personally oppose abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, and unjust wars. However I realize we live in a pluralistic society and the individual is sovereign. If a woman's chooses to terminate a pregnancy that is between her, her physician, and her conscience.

[yeoman6987]

26. Biden has same beliefs and didn't hurt anything

[DemonGoddess]

71. I expect that as a devout Catholic man

he has strong opinions on this, much like Joe Biden. Biden is pro choice, but privately doesn't believe in abortion. He overlooks his own personal feelings on the matter, to do what is right and work FOR choice.

[CrowCityDem]

2. I like the appeal Perez brings, but I also like H being able to say "I've got more 'sack than Trump"

[underpants]

3. Kaine was the lead lawyer in the suit that established Home Inc.

Look them up.

Very few politicians were publicly for gay marriage until about 2013.

His wife is a very well respected judge in the Juvenile system in Virginia. If memory serves she is in the drug court system - a big shift was made about 20 years ago to split juvies from adults in the drug courts. Basically it breaks the networking and juvies are far more likely to be rehabbed (sad to say).

[OnDoutside]

5. Will add to the list, thanks

[FSogol]

8. He was for civil unions. Agree: Very few politicians were publicly for gay marriage until about 2013

[Bluenorthwest]

11. By 2013 only the holdouts were still opposed, as late as 2009 Kaine was against civil

unions as well as marriage rights. It's just the fact.

New DNC chairman Tim Kaine - against gay marriage AND civil unions

The Virginia House voted 73 to 22 to approve a constitutional amendment banning equal marriage rights for gays. The proposal must be voted on by the Senate and signed by Gov.-elect Tim Kaine (D) before it can go to voters in November.

Kaine spokeswoman Delacey Skinner said that the governor-elect will sign the bill to call for a referendum. Kaine supports the amendment and opposes civil unions, she said.
https://www.datalounge.com/thread/7386272-new-dnc-chairman-tim-kaine-against-gay-marriage-and-civil-unions

If he'd been opposed to other minority rights a couple years back, DU would be simmering with anger.

[FSogol]

13. Your info is incorrect. SEE:

From wiki:

Statute

In August 1975, the Code of Virginia was amended to prohibit marriage between persons of the same sex.[5]

On February 4, 1997, the Virginia State Senate, by a 37-3 vote, approved of a bill banning recognition of same-sex marriages from other jurisdictions and "any contractual rights created by such marriage". On February 19, the Virginia House of Delegates, by a 81-8 vote, approved the bill. On March 15, Governor George Allen signed the legislation, which took effect on July 1.

On March 10, 2004, the State Senate, by a 28-10 vote, approved a bill prohibiting civil unions or similar arrangements between members of the same sex, including arrangements created by private contract. On March 11, the House of Delegates, by a 77-21 vote, approved the bill. On April 15, the House of Delegates received the Governor's recommendations on the bill. On April 21, the House of Delegates rejected the Governor's recommendations by a vote of 35-65 and by a 69-30 vote approved a bill prohibiting civil unions or similar arrangements between members of the same sex, including arrangements created by private contract without the Governor's recommendations. That same day, the State Senate, by a 27-12 vote, approved the bill. The bill became law without the Governor's signature and went into effect on July 1.

On February 3, 2014, the House of Delegates voted 65-32 in favor of a bill giving the Virginia General Assembly the right to defend a provision of the Constitution of Virginia that is contested or constitutionality questioned if the Governor or Attorney General choose not to defend the law. On February 21, the State Senate Committee on Rules voted 12-4 in favor of it being passed by indefinitely in rules, which effectively killed the bill for that session.

On February 3, 2015, the state Senate voted in favor of a bill seeking to update Virginia's statutory laws by making references to marriage gender-neutral. The bill was sponsored by Senator Adam Ebbin and enjoyed bipartisan support.[10] The bill however died in a House subcommittee. In January 2016, Senator Ebbin introduced a similar bill which will be discussed sometime in 2017

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Virginia

[underpants]

14. First of all "If", really? Look in 2009 he had bigger fights than gay marriage.

He had a Repub General Assembly and he was scrambling to keep the Commonwealth afloat during the Great Recession. By all accounts he did a great job. Picking a fight about gay marriage in a state that had JUST fully flipped to Blue was not worth it politically. Sorry but those decisions have to be made.

7 years ago almost NO ONE has supporting gay marriage other than can't lose representatives in deeply Blue areas.

[Bluenorthwest]

18. He was an aggressive opponent of both civil unions and marriage equality

And he was one of the very last of the Conservative Democrats to cease that bigoted activism. There is no way around that.

Straight people offer up excuses for the bigots in their own community with a casual ease that makes me think they relate to the bigot far more than to those the bigot abused. Must you really make such a person VP? Because that is the ONLY reason his past is of importance at all. Do I want one of the last bigoted holdouts to be in that position? No I don't. And I don't see any reason that should even be discussed. What did he do as Chair? Lost us two houses of the Congress. Got replaced. Why is he even on a list for rewards? He's a definition of the past.

[underpants]

21. Tim Kaine is not a conservative Democrat

But I understand your points.

[Chan790]

59. Thank you, BlueNW.

We cannot let people rewrite history with their apologia excusing bigotry they personally don't face.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. Kaine was opposed to both civil unions and marriage equality and you list his bigotry

under 'pros'. You have 'was openly bigoted until 2013' under 'pro'. And that's part of the problem.

Also, Virginia allows discrimination in housing and employment against LGBT with no recourse, Kaine supported that with word and with deed. He is definitive of the right side of this Party.

[bigwillq]

15. I like Perez the best from that list (nt)

[Bluenorthwest]

16. Kaine September 7, 2001 "I have never said I supported gay civil unions, gay marriages.

I do believe that people shouldn’t be kicked out of their jobs or discriminated against because of who they are."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/1/5/680317/-

Nice that he bravely opposed discrimination in housing and employment, both of which are still perfectly legal in Virginia......

[Gothmog]

17. Perez did a great job at the DOJ and the voting rights section

Bush gutted the DOJ voting rights and civil rights section with idiots like Monica Goodling. Eric Holder had to rebuilt that section and Perez did a ton of work there

[DCBob]

19. Hillary needs help with white male blue collar types.

I think Kaine is her best bet even though "boring". He somehow won some big elections in Virginia despite being so "boring".

He shores up Virginia and should also help with Pennsylvania. I like the fluent Spanish.. that's a huge added bonus.

[underpants]

22. His Spanish comes from his yearlong Catholic mission in Honduras

It was a great card to pull out when I was knocking on 1,200 doors for his Senate campaign. I got a lot of "okay. I like him" words and body language with that.

[DCBob]

24. I didnt know that about him. I like that too.

Thanks.

[DCBob]

64. Not wise to write off any voting bloc.

He wont completely change the dynamics with white male blue collar voters but just a few percentage points bump can make the difference in some states. Kaine is very smart and decent man with tons of experience and credibility. Your insults are unfounded and unfair.

[glennward]

20. I like the Admiral. Answers all the military, war crap the GOP will be throwing our way. He is not

a warmonger and has been in academia for the past several years...know how to relate to millennials. View is Ted Talk to learn more about him.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2252563

[AgadorSparticus]

33. Stradvirus is very impressive. I like him too.

I know he is a military man, but he is anything but a Warhawk. I think he would be a really good fit as well.

[glennward]

44. Do you think it might be too late to introdue him to the public? I do. But his message is so

insightful and 21st century. I really believe his is the best answer to defeating ISIS cabal long-term.

If he is not the VP selection he will surely gain some prominent position in a Clinton administration. Also, his message must be promoted by the entire Democratic party and especially the Clinton campaign. I have been paying close attention to HC's stump speeches public appearances and she is slipping in some of the Admiral's key message points about fighting ISIS with social media. His message is also one that Kaine can be fitted into easily. We really do need a strong message to and for the military and both Stradvirus and Kaine can do that. It would go a long way to thwart the Trump bomb, bomb, bomb message that his base thrives off of.

It might be too late, but Stradvirus needs to be introduced to public quickly. A campaign ad using main points of his TED-talk message would be a good start.

[AgadorSparticus]

45. As much as I am enamored of Stavridis's ideas and approach, I have my reservations

I am weary of how the public will respond.

It seems a big chunk of America has a limited understanding of what constitutes power. They are taken by false bravado as evidenced by Trump. The fact that he doesn't double down, uses cheap, simplistic, antagonistic rhetoric is not a coincidence. His base eats that up because they ignorantly confuse that with strength.

Given that, i am not sure how they would take to the highly forward thinking of Stravridis. I don't know if they will understand. However, I don't think it is a matter of having the capabilities TO understand, but rather fighting other forces that benefits in misinformation. These entities benefit in keeping people in the dark. And I am referring to the media. We would be going up against the media and the powers that be that control the media. The msm will attack Stavridis as being soft and incompetent and the RW base will gobble that up because we have never been good at fighting the media.

But if we are ever truly serious about eradicating IS terrorists and its ilk, Stavridis and his thinking is EXACTLY how we need to go about it. It seems anyone who has had any dealings with or has ever studied terrorist groups will concur with this approach. I remember watching a video of a past CIA operative and intelligence officer whose area of specialty is in radical islamists and she said essentially that in order to beat Islamic radicals, we need to take the time to understand them and understand what motivates them. That we needed to stop, take the emotions out, and approach them a little more compassionately in order to deal with them more successfully. I posted that on my FB page for all the right leaning folks. You could hear crickets. But post anything with shock and awe and everyone's all, 'MURICA!

The guns blazing approach only adds fuel to the fire as evidenced by, well, history. But the general public has not been educated on the power of diplomacy yet.

[glennward]

46. Watch the Trump trolls who come to this board snatch this kind of message and run with it like it is

their idea. That's why i want Hillary to introduce Stavridis as soon as possible to the public. Not for the VP necessarily but just to be able to capture the approach as our own and to be able to frame the issue FIRST! The GOP base is really lost to this kind of thinking but if Trump says it, even though they don't understand it, they will think it's the greatest thing since sliced cheese. We need to get out in front and own this approach not just for political reasons but because it is the right approach. Even Obama tried to talk about this in 2015 but not even Dems picked it up to run with. Hillary had this kind of thinking when she was SOS and pushed these kinds of actions but it got no traction. Sometimes our base is a bit dense too.

[AgadorSparticus]

48. I agree with everything you said. Our base can be a tad dense too.

Or maybe it's just that some people are black and white thinkers whereas others can see the shades of grey.

Not to worry. I think she will come out and frame the issue when the timing is right. It is clear it will be part of the agenda or else Stradvirus would not be getting vetted. You can see what kind of team she is building and it is exciting to see. REALLY exciting to see. I think it is safe to say, we can expect a new paradigm in our role on the global theater.

I wouldn't worry about the republicans stealing that thunder. They are so deep in doo doo, they can't tell their heads from their asses right now. Rince Penis and Ryan are standing there clueless on how to piece together a party that has splintered in 4 directions. They are fighting for their lives.

But between now and November, we have a singular focus and that is to win the presidency and take back the Senate and house.

[glennward]

58. Thanks! You are spot with our focus. nt

Last edited Sun Jul 17, 2016, 02:35 PM - Edit history (1)

[Darb]

27. Now do Pence, Chrispie, and Eye of a Newt.

I think we look pretty darn good.

[OnDoutside]

29. Too obvious ;)

[MSMITH33156]

28. I don't think it's fair to characterize

any of them as boring, to be honest. The ticket should project a message, and this one is responsible government (in contrast to that orange haired ape on the other side). So I think all 3 of them do that.

I also don't think Perez significantly increases the margin with Hispanic voters. I just don't believe identity politics work, otherwise the Republicans would have played that card a long time ago.

My primary criteria is that they can step up to the big desk if necessary, and I do rate Kaine and Vilsack higher by that measure. But I think they will all balance Hillary nicely and that ticket is one that we'll be happy with.

[OnDoutside]

32. In comparison to say Elizabeth Warren, I don't think it is unfair. And certainly is it the reaction

of many on here, but as Tim Kaine put it boring is a growing demographic.

I've flip flopped from Kaine to Warren to Kaine to Perez. One cannot say that having the first female President is a positive vote increaser, but that the first Hispanic Vice President isn't. Aside from that, Perez would be super useful in the fight over the Economy, seeing as he was the Labor Secretary for the last 3 years !!!

I really don't see much of a benefit to Vilsack, and you can imagine what the left will make of his link to Monsanto.

[w4rma]

30. Kaine voted to fast track the TPP. Perez has been a strong propagandist for the TPP. Vilsack?

Who the hell cares about Vilsack? Noone.

Honestly, none of these picks will help Hillary with any voters, but they'll all hurt her. You can't get blue collar voters, if that is who you are trying to target, with 'free' trade supporters.

[StevieM]

31. It is not correct to say that people who are adopted have humble beginnings.

Especially for someone like Vilsack, who was born during the Baby Scoop Era.

[pnwmom]

54. Wrong. There is no more humble beginning than being given up at birth

Last edited Sat Jul 16, 2016, 10:07 PM - Edit history (1)

or as a child -- and that was just as true during the era when unwed mothers were pressured to give up their babies.

No adoptee organization would agree with you. You can't know any adoptees personally to make such a claim. No matter what circumstances a child finds in his new home, that first loss will always be a loss.

And in Vilsack's case, he spent more than a year in an orphanage, and his adopted mother was an alcoholic. He had a very difficult childhood.

This article about him from 2008 was called "Trail of Tears."

http://www.gq.com/story/trail-of-tears

It wasn’t until he ran for president that he knew much of anything about where he came from. Last winter, during a campaign stop, he gave an interview and mentioned that he was adopted and grew up in Pittsburgh. Soon after, he got a letter from a nun: She worked at the orphanage where he’d been born and enclosed pictures of the place and of the kids who’d lived there with him. Did he want to know more? He did. She told him that his birth mother had been 23 (not the desperate teenager he’d imagined), that she’d called herself Gloria (an alias), and that his birth name was Kenneth. When he was fifteen months old, a couple from Pittsburgh came to the orphanage and picked him out of the litter. “My mother used to make fun about this,” he says, “and I always thought she was kidding. She made it sound like she was shopping for a Thanksgiving turkey. She said, ‘We looked for the plumpest kid we could find,’ on the theory that I’d be the healthiest kid.”

His father was a real estate agent, “a truly great human being, a people person. But not a good business guy. When he died, he was virtually penniless.” Both parents drank, but his mother was an especially ugly alcoholic. His childhood memories are these: being afraid to come home from school because he never knew how drunk his mother would be and whether she would beat him. Waking up in the middle of the night and peeking out his bedroom door to see his father walking his mother up and down the hall, trying to keep her awake and alive till the ambulance came, because she had drunk too much or taken pills to try to kill herself. Hearing the clunk clunk of liquor bottles crashing. “She’d go up in the attic and lock herself up there for weeks, and all you’d hear would be the dropping of liquor bottles on the floor.”

By the time he was an adolescent, his mother had been in and out of hospitals, mental and otherwise, and was living on her own. On his thirteenth birthday, his father took him and his sister to Mom’s apartment—she wanted to make him a steak dinner for his birthday. When they arrived, she was blotto (as usual), staggering around, too drunk to cook. The birthday boy got up and walked out. “That’s it, I’m done,” he told himself. Two weeks later, on Christmas Day, his mother was on a train somewhere, drunk, when she decided she’d had enough. “She had a religious experience, a revelation, whatever you want to call it.” She never drank another drop.

In the years she had left (she died at 57 of cancer), they grew very close. He learned to love her in ways he never dreamed possible. “She taught me to never give up,” he says. “She taught me the capacity of the human spirit to overcome anything.” She also left him with the legacy of a son of an alcoholic, something his pal Bill Clinton shares: You always try to fix things, always try to please, and always, at some level, feel that whatever happens, it is probably your fault.

[Vinca]

35. Blah, blah and blah.

I don't see any of these 3 adding much to the appeal of the ticket.

[FSogol]

36. Maybe HRC will find a circus performer to entertain you.

[Vinca]

39. She'd better find something. The polls are pretty darn scary.

She's an insider in an outsider year so if she picks some white bread politician, it could turn into toast.

[Independent_Voice]

37. Vilsack is a non-starter

Too old -- and his Monsanto connections should immediately disqualify him.

Vilsack would have been a viable candidate for the ticket in 2004 or 2008. But not now.

Kaine and Perez are about even in terms of being "safe" choices...although Perez would arguably generate more excitement.

I don't personally like either Kaine's or Perez's positions on the TPP...neither was near the top of my list in terms of who would be the most strategic (that would have been Becerra). But at least neither Kaine nor Perez has the same empty resumee as "novelty candidate" Castro.

So, to reiterate, both Kaine and Perez are probably "safe" choices who won't rock the boat too much.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. Did you mean to put the gay support thing under pro?

Because a lot of people see that as a major con

[OnDoutside]

40. I was just testing you ..... ;) fixed.

[glennward]

47. Whatever or whoever...HRC should start getting our bench out in front of the public. We have a deep

bench not just for VP but for all levels of government. Getting the bench out in public at least plants their creeds in front of the public and comparing our bench with theirs will sway a lot if Independents and maybe even some Greens.

HRC needs to bring as many out as she can at her rallies and let them speak. I still think the Admiral's TED-talk should be promoted and shown or at least promoted widely.

[Doctor Jack]

49. If we want a blue collar type, what is wrong with Sen. Brown?

Kaine and Vilsack have as much charisma as an old kitchen sponge. They are smart guys and would run circles around Pence but they probably would not help generate any excitement. Hillary isn't too bad at firing people up but she is nowhere near Obama or Sanders in that department. Getting people excited about the ticket will require someone that can bring out the crowds like Brown or Warren. Warren has raw energy and Brown is folksy and seems to have a quick wit. Those are the two options I would like to see.

[OnDoutside]

50. Because it would mean a Republican replacement in the Senate unfortunately. He's just unlucky to

be in a state with a Republican Governor.

[NewJeffCT]

67. So does Elizabeth Warren

but, I would love to have her on the ticket.

[OnDoutside]

69. But it has been said that there would be an election after 90 days for her seat.

[kevink077]

51. None of these 3 fit the bill

Has to be someone who excites the base. Warren or Booker. I would put Brown in that mix but can afford to lose that senate seat. Picking Warren or Booker at least those seats will only turn red for a few months.

[pnwmom]

53. The base is already excited about Hillary, so I'm not sure what you mean. n/t

[kevink077]

55. Not yet

The excitement level is nowhere near 2008. Not even close. Clinton needs to go bold and play to win. (Instead of playing to not lose). Otherwise, we will be looking at President Trump. If dem voters are not inspired that will not show up to vote. Republican voters always show up to vote, no matter how repulsive their candidate is.

[pnwmom]

56. The people I know are just as excited as we were in 2008. So I guess it depends

on who you are calling the base.

[w4rma]

52. Kaine, Perez and Vilsack are all huge cheerleaders for the TPP. Which is why they are being pushed.

With Kaine and Warner support, trade bill moves ahead
http://www.dailypress.com/news/politics/dp-nws-trans-pac-20150514-story.html

Secretary of Labor Thomas Perez says Trans-Pacific Partnership is good and deserves fast tracking
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/4/20/1379010/-Secretary-of-Labor-Thomas-Perez-says-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-is-good-and-deserves-fast-tracking

Vilsack confident Congress will pass Pacific trade deal
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/270507-vilsack-confident-congress-will-pass-pacific-trade-deal

[mountain grammy]

57. None of the above.

Elizabeth Warren. Do it! Two women against two of the most anti women candidates we've seen in a long time.

[OnDoutside]

63. How does the selection of Pence alter (or not) the current 3 favourites ?

Pence is far from an attack dog, though for a "Christian", he's certainly able to carry out the lying unchristian asshole role. There is ample opportunity to portray him as too dangerous

I could see Elizabeth Warren hound Pence (and Trump) on Women's and LGBTQ's issues, however, I think they will attack on the economy, and EW doesn't have a track record in that area, does she ?

Tom Perez has done pretty well as Labor Secretary and that should bolster Hillary on the economic argument, as Perez (from what I've seen of him) is well able to defend his record. Hillary appears to have 75% of the Hispanic vote, would a Perez VP add much more ?

Kaine can also speak directly to the Latino community, and has a better track record than Pence.

Vilsack, imo, would only be chosen as a direct mark for Pence.

All 4 can hit Pence on his right wing nutjob unsuitability.

[ProudDemocrat2016]

65. Should be a woman

[DesertRat]

66. Why do you say that?

[TheBlackAdder]

68. The trifecta of "How to lose a presidential election by selecting a wet noodle as Veep!"

[NewJeffCT]

70. Well, Mike Pence could be defined as a wet noodle

as well.

[DemonGoddess]

72. We need to get away from this "excitement" shit

What she is looking at, and what WE should be looking at, is overall qualifications of her running mate to REPLACE her, if the need arises.