The one thing that I cannot grasp is that anyone who is voting third party and considers

[still_one]

themselves a progressive, how they can simply ignore the consequences of what a trump presidency would do to the Supreme Court.

There will be at least two Supreme Court appointments under the next President. Are they that unaware of what that means for decades to come, that their hatred of Hillary is worth condemning the whole country to their selfishness?

There is no doubt that if trump became president, privacy between a person and their doctor would no longer be the law of the land. Citizens United would be solidified, and the civil rights laws fought so hard in the fifties and sixties would be broken down to even more extreme levels than where it has been going

[SHRED]

1. For some reason they have chosen this election...

...to vote their "conscience".

I can't tell you how many times I've read people who say they have voted for the "lesser of two evils" for many years and they aren't going to do it now.

Why they have chosen this election is baffling to me considering what is at stake as you've pointed out.

[still_one]

6. The one election that will change the Supreme Court for decades to come, and they

decide to essentially sit it out. Incredible.

Without a doubt I would have been angry and upset if Hillary had lost the primary. However, there was NEVER a doubt in my mind that I would have vote for Bernie if he was the Democratic nominee without hesitation.

[Kashkakat v.2.0]

39. Yah well Im voting for my conscience & the lesser of evils myself - & its CLINTON not some

inexperienced ill-informed egotist who runs a vanity candidacy every 4 yrs and apparently doesnt do much else in between to establish greater credibility as presidential candidate.

[MineralMan]

2. At this point, it's a waste of time to try to change

the minds of those committed to voting symbolically for a third party candidate. Instead, working on GOTV activism to bring new people to the voting booth and get others to show up who might not otherwise is a far better use of time.

Many of those who are claiming to "vote their conscience" are doing nothing of the sort. Instead, they are simply attempting to discourage others from turning out to vote. We must not let them win.

[still_one]

7. You are absolutely right, it's just that I find it hard to understand

[MineralMan]

9. It's easy enough to understand.

Some people simply do not use logic in their thinking and decisions. They are willing to do an illogical thing, because they have not actually applied any logic at all to their choice.

1. In the USA, Presidents are either Democrats or Republicans. All other candidates will lose. That's the fundamental premise.

2. Only votes for the Democratic or Republican candidate matter in deciding who wins.

3. Voting for a third party candidate is wasting a vote.

It's not complex logic.

[still_one]

10. I guess it really is as simple as that

[CajunBlazer]

17. I am a little more harsh in my assessment of those people

They use emotion not reason to make decisions.

They believe that only they, and no one else, knows what's best politically

They are the politically pure progressives, everyone to right, including other progressives are damn conservatives.

They vow never to compromise their "principles"

They are selfish in their actions because they are willing to sacrifice of the fates of those who who are most in need (and thus violate the most important progressive principle) so they can be true to "their principles" and not vote for anyone doesn't fits their definition of a perfect candidate.

[MineralMan]

37. That's fine, but outcomes matter.

They matter a great deal. I have almost no patience with people who ignore outcomes in binary sections. I have zero patience for those who encourage others to throw away votes in an election this important. For those people, I have only contempt.

And that's how I feel.

[CajunBlazer]

40. I think we are on the same page MineralMan

That wasn't exactly a glowing assessment of Stein voters I posted. I have absolutely no patience with them.

In clear more precise terms, I think that they are selfish, smug, egotistical, self righteous human beings who are yet in their life to their first rational thought.

[JI7]

21. is not that hard when you realize they aren't progressives

[pangaia]

26. You said.....

"Many of those who are claiming to "vote their conscience" are doing nothing of the sort. Instead, they are simply attempting to discourage others from turning out to vote. We must not let them win."

How do you know this to be true?

Although I DO wish we had more than the fixed 2 parties, I definitely agree that this is not necessarily the time to go third party. it is in this day, nuts... but....

[MineralMan]

36. I read more than just DU.

That's how I know.

[Thinkingabout]

3. Just looking at the poll numbers neither of the third party candidates will have enough votes to win

the election and should Trump win the election will result in a terrible outcome for American citizens. With Congress remaining in control of Republicans there will be a rush to reverse ACA and as with Bush a rush to give Trump anything he wants, we do not need his wants and his wants are against so many of us. I am getting the feeling Trump's "Make America Great" involves making America White, he is a racists, he does not respect latinos, blacks, or Muslims.

[OKNancy]

4. I don't think it's voting their conscience. It's revenge

Revenge for not getting what they want. It's a temper tantrum.

[still_one]

8. I am sure it is, but what does it accomplish by cutting off one's nose to spite their face?

[Demsrule86]

13. Same sort of behavior that lead to the 2010 election debacle.

I will show you Pres Obama...a protest vote...and what happens ...the GOP stops all progressive policy. Same old, same old...the hold the (fill in the blank's) feet to the fire. And they never learn. Unless we unite and accept we don't always get everything we want...the GOP will continue to win in terms of policy because we fight on their turf. I have already seen posters with the after the election ...blah blah ...feet to the fire bullshit. I sometimes wonder if these folks are really GOP plants.

[SHRED]

11. Many are upset...

...at the way the DNC treated Bernie as revealed in the DWS emails.
I am voting for Hillary but to call it a mere "temper tantrum" is a belittling in my opinion.

[Demsrule86]

14. It is a temper tantrum.

Nothing the DNC did would have changed the primary results. And surprise, surprise ...they were for the life-long Democrat. Personally, I would not have allowed Sen. Sanders to run as a Democrat . He is not a Democrat. An independent run would have made sense. Now, I like Sen. Sander, but no doubt the bitter primary brought down Sec Clinton's numbers. With the courts at stake, it was a bad year for this. That being said, the primary is over...and if some still have hurt feelings or whatever, we can't change that. We will have to make it without them and basically save the country. Trump is a monster.

[bettyellen]

15. There was always an anger and desire for punitive action there. It's not sated.

[CajunBlazer]

41. Big boys and girls get over that kind of stuff ....

.... and vote in their own selfish self interest instead walking around with their feelings hurt several months later.

[bettyellen]

16. It's that there is a tipping point going on- but it turns out it's not about THEM.

[DinahMoeHum]

5. The "Nothing But The Best For The Oppressed" attitude

in those who would vote 3rd party in their selfish self-righteousness is frankly, fuckingly irksome.

[Gothmog]

12. A vote for a third party candidate is a vote for trump

[bigwillq]

18. I have no issue with folks voting for who they want

that is their right in this country, as is your right to criticize them for it.

I don't care if it's a protest vote, voting their conscience, a vote for this one, a vote against that one. As long as folks vote, I care little about who they vote for. It's their vote. They should do with it what they wish.

[still_one]

19. My OP had NOTHING to do with their right to vote for whoever they wanted. My

OP questioned their progressive credentials, knowing that the next President will determine the direction of the Supreme Court for the next twenty years.

They can call it a protest vote or anything they want, it won't matter because in reality the final election results will either be Hillary or Trump.

The reality is this, if they want to be part of a party that has NO CHANCE of effecting progressive change, then they have accomplished exactly what they want by voting for Stein, but their so-called progressive credentials are empty words when the likes of a scalia, alito, or thomas are appointed to the Supreme Court by a president trump.

and yes, there vote is wasted

As the saying goes:

[bigwillq]

23. So? My response still stands.

I can post whatever I want to whatever thread I want at whatever time I want.

And you can think whatever you want about who is a progressive and who is not.

Freedom, baby.

Freedom.

[still_one]

25. If someone wants to post support for a third party candidate on DU that is a TOS violation. Those

who subscribe to that view can find other avenues to express that view, but not here. This is a Democratic forum, for those who support Democratic candidates

[pangaia]

27. WHO is expressing support for a third party?

You are putting words in Bigwillg's mouth.

He/she NEVER said that.

[still_one]

32. Did you even read the context of what I was responding to? I did NOT put words

into "anyone's mouth", nor did I accuse Bigwill of anything.

All I stated was that there are TOS rules on DU which put constraints on what someone can post on DU.

What even started the subthread discussion was the accusation that I was somehow implying that people did not have a right to vote for whoever they wanted, and that was not even what my OP was about.

[bigwillq]

28. I'm voting for democrats

But feel folks should be free to vote for who they want to.
And I don't get to make up the rules about who people are or who they're not, and neither do you.

[still_one]

33. First of all I was not referring to you or any specific person. That is the truth

Our conversation started with what I read as your misunderstanding of my OP. No where in that OP did I say that people couldn't vote for who they wanted to.

Then you proceeded toward an intellectual discussion where people can think and post whatever they want. Which is generally true, but I pointed out an exception to that by saying that DU does put some constraints on what someone can post based on TOS. That was just pointing out an obvious exception.

Let me try and make this as clear as I can. There is nothing you posted that I disagree with, except that I believe you misinterpreted what my original OP was. I was not talking about freedom of choice, I was talking about puzzlement, and what I viewed as an inconsistency, not that someone did not have a right to do whatever they wanted

As a final point, if I did not express myself as clear as I should have, and you thought I was referring to you, I sincerely apologize, I was not

[bigwillq]

34. OK.

That's fine.

Although I do feel someone can be progressive, or conservative, if they vote third party.
It appears GHWB is voting for Clinton--That's cool. But just because he is voting for Clinton, it does not mean he is not a republican or not a conservative.

We don't get to define who someone is. If that is your personal belief, fine, I respect it, but it doesn't mean they are or are not what we believe they are.

[still_one]

35. I agree. It is the famous Voltaire quote:

"I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It"

That is what free speech is all about

[JI7]

20. they aren't progressives.

[still_one]

22. No doubt they consider themselves progressives, but their actions say otherwise

There actions have the potential to contribute to an extremist right wing agenda that will control this country for decades to come

[pangaia]

29. Who says?

I am playing devil's advocate here. I do not agree with what 'they' do in voting for Stein or whatshisname. It is the wrong time to vote third part. (When IS the right time, eh?) BUT, I will defend their right ti do it.

Will you?

[JI7]

31. i didn't say they had no right to do it. i said they were not progressive

[pangaia]

38. I can not say they are not progressive either.

[Rocknrule]

24. That's a sacrifice they're willing to make in order to feel smug and self-righteous

Their attitude is "I got mine, fuck everyone else" and it makes them no different than Republicans

[pangaia]

30. 'Their attitude is "I got mine, fuck everyone else.'

What did they get?

Like I said above.. I do not agree 'their' decision is the right one now (when IS it right?) but they have a right to vote what they truly believe is right.