Where do you stand on the back pat? I found it condescending and patronizing.

[pnwmom]

Last edited Wed Sep 28, 2016, 10:33 PM - Edit history (6)

A dominance signal on Trump's part. (When do male politicians/business people ever pat each other on the WAIST?)

But he would say, of course, that he was just being gracious.

ON EDIT: I just found a NYTimes article that mentions he did this both before the debate and afterwards.

http://www.bustle.com/articles/186233-donald-trump-gives-hillary-clinton-a-pat-on-the-back-following-the-first-debate-friendly

After accusing Hillary Clinton of having poor judgment, a terrible temperament, and a very un-presidential "look," Donald Trump ended Monday night's debate with a back pat. Yes, a pat on the back — like the former secretary of state, who is roughly the same age as Trump, didn't just hold her own during a national presidential debate. Was it friendly or patronizing? You kind of just have to see it for yourself.

Trump's back pat came at the end of a very heated debate between the two presidential candidates, both of whom are trying to steer two very polarized voting blocs. Trump and Clinton clashed Monday night over their respective temperaments, a word that's received quite a bit of airtime this election cycle.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/us/politics/trump-clinton-debate-body-language.html?ref=politics

It began, of course, with the ritual handshake at center stage before the candidates retreated to their lecterns. After the shake, Mr. Trump placed his hand gently on Mrs. Clinton’s back.

There were different ways to interpret the gesture. Was he being patronizing — trying to assert his alpha-male dominance from the get-go — or just looking to demonstrate that he felt comfortable, relaxed, unthreatened by the professional politician? Whether involuntary or intentional, the signal was unmistakable: I’m the strong one here.

SNIP

Minutes later, it was all over. Once again, the candidates came together. Once again, Mr. Trump put his hand on Mrs. Clinton’s back, this time with a little pat, as if to confer his approval on a job well done.

[bigwillq]

1. I didn't see anything wrong with it

Have had it done to me my colleagues and folks who work at rival companies of mine.

[niyad]

7. surely you understand the optics involved with drumpfy. not sure about your company.

it is indeed a dominance thing--just like chimpy "massaging" angele merkel's shoulders, uninvited.

[pnwmom]

8. Have you been patted by people you detested? While you are supposed to be smiling through it?

She loathes him as much as we do. Would you want Trump to pat you on the back? To touch you anywhere?

[bigwillq]

16. Yes. yes.

No. No.

But sometimes you have to play the game, which I understand, and didn't see anything wrong with it in that aspect. Politics is all about playing the game. Any job, really, is about playing the game.

[pnwmom]

18. She had to play the game of not being bothered. But he shouldn't have touched her,

other than the mutual handshake.

It was a dominance move, not a friendly move.

[bigwillq]

20. Trump is a dominant person

as are a lot of men and woman.
I've seen both men and women do this.
Sometimes intentionally, and sometimes not.
It is what it is.
She can tell if not to touch her if she wants to.

[bettyellen]

34. Oh come on- she really did not have the option of telling him not to touch her-

She had to grin and bear it, otherwise she'd be deemed a horrible b*#€h. Let's not pretend otherwise.

[bigwillq]

36. Folks will think whatever they want anyway

If she had a problem with it, she should have said something. Her choice.

[bettyellen]

37. It's not really free choice when the stakes are so high. She lives in the real world-

Not the world we deserve. And I think it's a good thing she does, but not going to pretend the real world isn't often full of shit.

[pnwmom]

55. Millions of women will KNOW she had a problem with it. And smart men.

The rest will be voting for Trump anyway.

[rock]

56. I agree bigwillq

It may not even be a put-down. It simple doesn't rise to (say) giving someone the finger. And may even mean, "Job well down."

[LanternWaste]

65. Bless your little heart.

Bless your little heart.

Hope you didn't see anything wrong with that as well... its sincerity is the same as the back pat, and I too "had it done to me my colleagues and folks who work at rival companies of mine."

[Bernardo de La Paz]

2. He was checking for boxes and wires and earpieces. . . . . nt

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. I didn't see it that way.

Older men often do that sort of thing without even thinking. It may be a sexist gesture, but I doubt that even Trump meant it that way.

It's more a reflexive gesture than anything else.

[Greywing]

4. Patronizing ... he actually thought he had won the debate

[retrowire]

5. I didn't think anything of it when I saw it happen.

But I can see how it could come off as dominant...

However, from the other side of the viewpoint, (and I don't believe this is the case for Trump and Hillary) that body language can be used as an affectionate, "I've got your back" kind of thing.

[pnwmom]

11. That's the thing. They can't stand each other -- that's the context of his touching her.

It's asserting a right to touch her that I don't think he has.

[retrowire]

14. Oh I'm sure they gave firm handshakes trying to hurt the other's fingers. nt

[bellmartin]

70. Must be creepy to try to shake that stubby-fingered hand.

[yeoman6987]

38. Can't stand each other? I doubt that

I mean you don't go to a wedding of someone you can't stand.

[pnwmom]

39. That was more than 10 years ago. They can't stand each other now. n/t

[skylucy]

6. I noticed it. It didn't seem to bother Hillary one bit, so I guess

I am ok with it. He probably thinks he deserves a gold star for not snapping her bra.

[niyad]

10. she has endured so much sexist crap over the years, she has probably had to non-react

in many situations where the common inclination might be to break his tiny fingers.

[pnwmom]

13. Women are trained not to acknowledge every thing that bothers them -- especially women in politics.

If she had reacted, imagine the uproar.

[BlueCaliDem]

33. Exactly. I agree with you, it was a dominance gesture, and I didn't like it the moment I saw it. eom

[AgadorSparticus]

9. I grew up with men doing that. It is a gentlemanly thing to do.

[pnwmom]

17. When you loathe them and they loathe you? Would you want Trump to pat you on the back

after you'd just got done arguing with him?

[AgadorSparticus]

21. I don't think Trump meant it to be anything. He probably didn't even think about it.

And I doubt Hillary even noticed it.

I truly despise Trump and everything about him. But I think this is a nonissue.

[pnwmom]

22. I'm guessing you aren't female. She noticed it. See post #19 below. n/t

[AgadorSparticus]

25. I AM female and I grew up with this being the norm.

I also grew up with men opening my doors. Maybe not in other places but where I came from, that's what they did. Even punk ass frat boys had enough manners to open doors. I can see though that strangers wouldn't necessarily put their hand on my back. Just men I knew. But Clinton and Trump are not strangers. They know each other.

[pnwmom]

26. They loathe each other at this point. She wouldn't want a pat from him any more than you would.

Would you want him to touch you anywhere?

[AgadorSparticus]

31. I wouldn't have really noticed or cared. It's a reflexive gesture

That I dont think means a whole lot. There's TOO MUCH other stuff to be upset about. This just isn't one of them. If I thought it was a disrespect, that would be another story. I find his interrupting, mansplaining, and flat out lies to be far more offensive during the course of the debate.

[Maru Kitteh]

61. Women making excuses for sexist behavior is something to be upset about.

Especially on a Democratic message board. We get enough of that shit out in the world, sad to see it here.

It was one step away from patting her on the head or swatting her backside. It was a patronizing dominance gesture and it made me sick to my stomach when I saw it.

[AgadorSparticus]

81. To be clear, I am not making excuses for sexist behavior when I see it as that.

Your opinion is not the gospel on defining sexist behavior. People CAN disagree on this. I love how people think their way of thinking is THE ONLY WAY.

"Especially on a Democratic message board."

So are you saying I am not a Democrat because I disagree? Oh the irony.....

[Maru Kitteh]

82. To be clear, you were telling women what to be upset about

"There's TOO MUCH other stuff to be upset about. This just isn't one of them."

If you are not offended by big orange racists patting you on the back to assert their dominance over you fine; but you are not the arbiter of what other women should be upset about.

We do get plenty of that in the world. It is disappointing when it comes from other women. It is disappointing to encounter on a Democratic message board. It has nothing to do with whether or not you are a Democrat.

[AgadorSparticus]

83. I also said that is what I BELIEVED upthread. My bad. I didn't repeat that EVERY time.

If you want to believe it was an act of dominance, go right ahead. But people can have differing opinions. I think people overreact and that doesn't move the needle forward. I think we need to pick our battles better than this...

[anneboleyn]

42. Being pat on the back is different than holding a door open. Patting a woman's back

especially when the woman is a rival is a dominance move, saying that he can invade her space-- he is entering her space without her invitation. A handshake is a socially acceptable norm that maintains personal space. Simple. A pat on a woman's back (unless she is a relative, good friend, etc NOT A POLITICAL RIVAL OR BOSS OR ANYTHING ELSE) suggests that the person doing the patting thinks they have access to the woman's personal space.

[AgadorSparticus]

43. I disagree. I have seen plenty of men patting each other on the back with a handshake

That was in no way a sign of dominance. If anything, it was more affection. What about people shaking hands with 2 hands? Is that a sign of dominance too? Not every interpersonal touch is a sign of dominance. Kind of like when lawyers rip each other apart and then afterwards go have drinks. In politics, it is their job to rip each other apart. But it doesn't mean you can't say, "that was a good competition. Good game". That pat was no more than a"good game". It may not be the most professional move, but it is not like Trump has ever been professional.

Trump interrupted Hillary throughout the debate. THAT showed more his nature to dominate than a little pat on the back to me. His words to describe Alicia Machado and other women show more of his mysogyny.

[pnwmom]

45. But we KNOW it isn't a sign of affection when Trump does it to Hillary. It's all an act,

and a display of dominance.

Not affection, because he can't stand her. If he felt affection for her, he wouldn't still be taunting her about Gennifer Flowers.

Yes, you're right about the interruptions. But the back pats were part of the same sexist behavior.

[onenote]

58. It's an act, but an act a lot of politicians engage in

Do you think Obama had "affection" for McCain or Romney when he patted them on the back? Do you think it was a display of dominance when Obama patted Clinton on the back.

Go back and watch the beginning and end of the debates between Obama and Clinton or Obama and McCain or Obama and Romney or the Republican debates. You'll see a lot of back patting, shoulder patting, arm squeezing. Do you think when Ben Carson patted someone on the back it was done as a display of dominance?

Oddly, the most uncomfortable handshakes I remember from the past few election cycles were those between Clinton and Sanders, who sometimes didn't shake hands at all and when they did, often did it perfunctorily.

[pnwmom]

60. None of those people DESPISE each other. McCain actually defended Obama

to the birther woman at the town hall.

And even if a back pat is common, that doesn't mean it isn't an alpha-male display. Do you see Hillary patting the men on the back?

[onenote]

72. We'll just have to agree to disagree

Politicians back slap. Always have. Always will. That includes women in politics.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2228967.1432127699!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/dem-2016-o-malley-clinton.jpg

And yes, the Clinton/O'Malley relationship isn't the same as the Clinton/Trump relationship. But if the fact that two politicians despise each other should impact their physical interaction, then it would have been hypocritical for either one of them to shake hands with the other, let alone do it with a big smile.

?crop=12px%2C0px%2C2947px%2C1977px&resize=446%2C299&ssl=1


Politicians do what politicians do.

[pnwmom]

73. Men aren't the default gender, even if they think they are.

As more and more women enter politics, what is considered "standard" behavior will change -- because women won't feel they have to conform to the male standard.

http://www.scienceofpeople.com/2015/02/body-language-differences-sexes/

1. The Approach

Typically, women like to be approached from the front and don’t like having someone come up behind them and tap them on the shoulder. Researchers think this is about protection. When a woman can see who is approaching her, she is able to suss them out before a conversation and get a grasp on her safety. Personally, I know being approached from behind can feel a little threatening, even when you are in a friendly place. Men prefer to be approached from the side or at angle because it is less aggressive. The front approach is more like charging at someone.

3. Touch

Touch can be a tricky nonverbal area. Some people love to be touched and to show affection, while others have strict personal zones. There is a major difference between the sexes:

Women use touch for camaraderie. Men use touch for signals of power.
Touch can do both–insert power and build connection, it all depends on how you use it. After the initial handshake or greeting is where men and women really use touch differently. Women tend to reach out and touch someone’s arm or forearm or give a hug to build connection and show support. Men (even subconsciously) will pat someone on the back to show dominance or place a hand on a shoulder to show superiority or control.

Be aware that pats, back slaps and shoulder touches can be a way to show dominance. Use them carefully.

[CajunBlazer]

12. It is an attempt to show that he had that he had the upper hand

That he was in charge - it's similar to someone putting the hand of the opposite arm on the arm of the other person while shaking hands - its a body language ploy.

[anneboleyn]

41. MTE. It was a patronizing move. Trump does a similar "dominant" move with men when

he shakes hands with them -- he jerks them forward with the shaking hand and pats them with the other. These are domineering moves.

[niyad]

15. I like the fact that below that video is the one about drumpfy feeling up ivanka at the rnc

[C_U_L8R]

19. Being tapped on the back is jarring

Our personal boundaries are very sensitive to
being touched from behind. Have someone try it on you.
It was a dick move by Trump and Hillary brushes off
his bullshit gimmicks like the cheap tactics of
a dumb cheesy sales guy.

[pnwmom]

23. Exactly! It would be unexpected and jarring. And even if it's something he did without thinking

it's still a dominance signal.

[Laffy Kat]

24. I saw a photo of it and the first thing I thought about..

Was how condescending it looked. A hand shake would have been fine, but the paternal, hand on the back, um, no.

[hlthe2b]

27. I agree, but I also think that is why she decided to refer to him only as "Donald"

which was a good tactic, IMO.

[rumdude]

28. I have no problem with it - nt

[LuvLoogie]

29. That was a total passive aggressive pat. With the condescending "good job."

She totally and quickly pulled away from him after that. He wanted to be closer to the edge of the stage and give her a shove. That is the vibe he gave. He oozed his stifled rage, and Hillary left him in the dust to stew. Watch closely. (on edit: you have to see the angle from the front and the look on their faces.)

He was left to flail about on the floor spinning at the press. Mark Halperin was the first to congratulate him.

[Loki Liesmith]

30. In general I do not like to be touched

it made me uncomfortable, but I have an explicit bias against contact.

[Blue Idaho]

32. I instantly thought her response should be

"Get your hands off me!"

[Bucky]

47. Yeah, but actually doing that would indicate a bad temperament.

Which she couldn't do right there, not when it would be contrasted with his tremendous, great, great temperament, which is very good, a lot of people tell me.

[Doreen]

35. Suprised me.

I however figured it was a show off for Trump. It was almost like him saying "now, now honey you'll be fine."

[6chars]

40. In a way funny from a guy who was just totally owned

[Hekate]

44. I said "Ew" and hubby said "Patronizing."

There you have it from two older folks.

[Bucky]

46. Harmless. He's an alpha male; it's a natural reflex. Humans d)o it all the time.

People got to see the real Trump. It's okay to let the little things (like a simple pat on the back) slide.

[pnwmom]

49. Alpha male politicians need to control themselves if they don't want to alienate millions of women..

Men in the corporate world can and do learn to control these behaviors.

Of course Hillary let it slide. That's what women do. But that doesn't mean both of them weren't very conscious of his move, or that she appreciated being touched by him. Why would she want to be touched by a man she can't stand?

[DLevine]

50. I agree. Well said. nt

[GopherGal]

74. Respectfully disagree.

Because it was the "alpha male" asserting dominance, it was not harmless.

Would he have done it with a male opponent?

But there was no good way Hillary could respond to it without the fallout coming onto her rather than him. Which is exactly why he did it. And why it's borderline creepy.

[TexasProgresive]

48. It reminds me of baby bUSH massaging Merkel.

I don't know what it means, but it made me uncomfortable.

[redstatebluegirl]

51. Me too, I had a boss who did that to me.

Especially the "pat", it's ok dear I know you are hormonal, we will take care of you.

[niyad]

52. considering that the man is a germophobe, I am amazed that he would actually touch someone

other than the obligatory handshake. yes, it was clearly a dominance thing, and no matter how people try to dismiss it, or dress it up, it was a deliberate dominance thing.

[hamsterjill]

53. I saw it and I thought it was insincere and manipulated on Trump's part.

It was done in his mind to make him look like a nicer old man. He's not nice.

Boy, don't I wish we lived in a world where Hillary would have been championed had she turned around and swatted Donald's ass. But she could not have done that, of course.

She handled it perfectly by not letting it bother her, or at least not seeming to be bothered. Part of her brilliance is knowing when to pick her battles, and what battles to let slide.

[DrDan]

54. an authoritarian gesture - probably practiced - he did it both prior to and after the debate

[onenote]

57. I don't read any more into it than I did the times President Obama patted debate opponents

Go back and watch the Romney/Obama debates, or the McCain/Obama debates -- in virtually every instance, Obama, while shaking hands either at the start or the end of the debate, reaches out with his other hand and pats -- multiple times -- his opponent on the shoulder and/or back. Same thing with the Obama/Clinton debates -- he sometimes gave her a pat, on the back, at the end.

It's a politician thing. Not just a Trump thing. (In fact, it's not even just a politician thing -- I know lots of people who accompany a hand shake with a shoulder or back pat).

[pnwmom]

62. Show me where Hillary patted a man like that -- a man she isn't close to.

And he was behind her, and they were done with the event. She wasn't in a position to expect that pat. It was invasive.

http://www.scienceofpeople.com/2015/02/body-language-differences-sexes/

1. The Approach

Typically, women like to be approached from the front and don’t like having someone come up behind them and tap them on the shoulder. Researchers think this is about protection. When a woman can see who is approaching her, she is able to suss them out before a conversation and get a grasp on her safety. Personally, I know being approached from behind can feel a little threatening, even when you are in a friendly place. Men prefer to be approached from the side or at angle because it is less aggressive. The front approach is more like charging at someone.

3. Touch

Touch can be a tricky nonverbal area. Some people love to be touched and to show affection, while others have strict personal zones. There is a major difference between the sexes:

Women use touch for camaraderie. Men use touch for signals of power.
Touch can do both–insert power and build connection, it all depends on how you use it. After the initial handshake or greeting is where men and women really use touch differently. Women tend to reach out and touch someone’s arm or forearm or give a hug to build connection and show support. Men (even subconsciously) will pat someone on the back to show dominance or place a hand on a shoulder to show superiority or control.

Be aware that pats, back slaps and shoulder touches can be a way to show dominance. Use them carefully.

[GopherGal]

75. Also, there's "back" and then there's "back"

Back slaps between men are usually on the upper part of the back. These were on the small of the back down near the waist.

Not somewhere I'd expect to be touched by a business acquaintance.

[pnwmom]

78. Right. His hand was near her waist. What business guy pats another business guy there? nt

[CTyankee]

84. I don't touch and am not touched by any of our male friends except an embrace for goodbye...

If they are particularly close I might put my hand gently on his shoulder...exp. if they are not well and kinda lonely. Unfortunately, we have male friends who have had more than their share of misery -- emotional and physical. One of them said "It's been a long time since a woman touched me like that." I was surprised and embarrassed but my husband wasn't fazed...

[GoCubsGo]

59. So, it wasn't just me, then.

I'm in the "patronizing" camp, as well.

[maxsolomon]

63. It pissed me off - you'd do that to your kid after her ballet recital

overly familiar, belittling, disrespectful, patriarchal. I yelled at the TV, and I was already exhausted from yelling at the TV.

I'm sure he thought he was being cordial, but he doesn't get it - that's well established. She should have leaned over and whispered "touch me after the next debate, and I'll pat your beer belly in response."

That said, I always agree with you, PNWMom - ever since the Amanda Knox battles on DU.

[pnwmom]

68. Speaking of Amanda Knox (nice change of subject)

have you seen her blog? It includes her articles in the local newspaper.

It's good to see her making a life for herself.

www.amandaknox.com

Good to see you, maxsolomon.

[MrScorpio]

64. You're exactly right

That was an attempt at dominating Hillary by Trump. People who are a bit more attuned to reading body language signals could see that for what it was. I recognized it the moment it happened. The first was instinctively on his part. I'm sure that he does that to others a lot.

The second back pat, however, was definitely his way of intentionally trying to patronize her.

[TeeYiYi]

66. Better than a kick in the teeth...

It's just part of the protocol.

TYY

[pnwmom]

67. It's part of the male dominance protocol. Try to envision her doing that to him. nt

[TeeYiYi]

71. I CAN envision her doing that to him...

I agree, it's a condescending, patronizing, passive-aggressive thing to do... but not surprising or unexpected in that historically misogynist setting. Hillary is not afraid of him. I can totally see her returning the gesture just to piss him off.

TYY

[ailsagirl]

69. Agree. We know he loathes her-- why pat her back?

Last edited Thu Sep 29, 2016, 02:54 AM - Edit history (2)

Gratuitous and devious and, of course, condescending

But I doubt he's fooling anyone-- even his crazy followers

The two opponents are supposed to shake hands-- that's ALL

[guillaumeb]

76. If he had been generally polite and respectful that would be one thing.

But his entire history argues against that. Definitely patronizing.

But 40 minutes into the debate he looked weak and confused.

[handmade34]

77. offensive

[sarae]

79. I find it a bit condescending coming from him,

although compared against his insanely long list of other offenses, I suppose it's relatively low.

Yesterday CNN had a body language expert analyzing the debate. She pointed out Trump's pat on the back and commented that he did that as a sign of dominance. I wonder if he does it knowingly or if he's acting on pure instinct, like a chimp?

[pnwmom]

80. He no doubt does it routinely to women. So he's treating her as a woman, not a peer.

He'd never have patted Jeb Bush on the waist, or even "little Marco."