HRC Staffers let Kaine down last night.

[Funtatlaguy]

Jen Palmieri and Karen Finney had the primary responsibility of prepping Kaine.
Both are veterans with a lot of tv experience.
Finney even hosted an MSNBC show fir a while.
They should have known all about optics.
They should have talked about the intimate setting of a sit down debate.
There is NO way that Kaine should have interrupted like that.
Just let Pence drone on.
Instead, the media was given its narrative on a silver platter that Kaine was too pushy, not calm and poised like the former radio talk show Pence.


All that being said, Kaine did win on substance.
He effectively attacked Trump and defended Clinton.
Whereas, Pence didn't defend Trump, for reasons known only to him.

By Sunday's next Prez debate, this will be forgotten.
But, Kaine could have won on BOTH style AND substance if he had been prepped better.
Opportunity missed and I blame HRC's staff as much or more than I blame Kaine.

[Adrahil]

1. Overstated....

Kaine was wound a little tight the first half, but he did fine overall, and beat Pence where it mattered.... On Trump. This won't move the needle either way.

[stonecutter357]

2. I'm not concerned at all.

[Democat]

3. By interrupting, he stopped Pence's long unchallenged lies

The most important thing for Kaine to do was to make sure that Pence didn't get a chance to sell Trump to America. By throwing Pence off he stopped any chance Pence had of unchallenged Trump commercials.

[Demsrule86]

26. I agree with that completely.nt

[brush]

37. Correct. The moderator was weak in letting Pence drone on past his time with no fact checking

Kaine's interruptions were the only thing that stopped Pence's side-stepping Kaine's challenges to defend Trump's statements.

[Fast Walker 52]

4. I thought Kaine killed it last night-- all his points were full on great

He did interrupt too much, but that was the format and the moderator was useless.

[Native]

69. I agree. The moderator wasn't calling Pence on his lies. Someone had to do it. Is it Kaine's fault

that Pence was throwing out a lie a second? With that record, I'm surprised Kaine didn't interrupt more often. Like Mook once said, if you have to spend your allotted time refuting the lies of your opponent because the moderator isn't doing it, then that eats into the time you're given to present your own vision. Bottom line, interrupting would be the only way to call a lie a lie without having it eat into your own time.

[Fast Walker 52]

70. indeed-- the moderator was useless for any kind of fact checking

she had a list of questions, and she was going to get through them come hell or high water!

[EV_Ares]

5. Actually, overall, nothing to worry about because Kaine did his job. Maybe, he could have done it

better but he did a good job nevertheless. He reminded everyone who is at the top of the republican ticket & what he is like.

He got that out. As for mannerisms, calmness maybe Pence got this there but for substance Kaine won. That said, it appears that Pence was the choice for winner, but when a debate is won by 4 or 5 points. That is like he said, she said.

Like CNN said they think that when a little more time comes, it may be that Kaine won because fact checking is going to show Pence lied on a lot of things trying to defend Trump where he really failed.

[AmericanActivist]

6. I disagree. I think Kaine was right to interrupt because

if he was polite and patient waiting his turn he would look weak. Pence, like Trump, and Republicans, and Fox News staff all interrupt and talk over people and ramble and disregard time; for years, decades even, Democrats were polite and these other people ran roughshod over them. Kaine did well. He hammered Pence with facts.

[grossproffit]

7. VP often debates come down to sound bites. #ThatMexicanThing is a good one and not for Trump.

[yardwork]

8. It's all about reaching the undecideds. They like strong men.

I'm sure that Kaine was told to be forceful.

[C_U_L8R]

9. Hillary spoke to camera

And connected with the bigger home audience.
Her language was tight on making her views relevant to you.
Kaine was speaking to the moderator off to the side
and was talking a bit abstractly about policy. .
Not so much 'hey here's why this is important to you at home' or 'here's what's in it for you'
And the ugh, interrupting.
Pence spoke into the camera but was a bit creepy with his gosh shucks schtick.
And lied his ass off to make their heinous positions seem kinder gentler
and covered with caring goo. The old Shrub trick.

Overall Kaine lost some style points that he shouldn't have...
But on the issues, he won (he just could have been better).

[grossproffit]

13. Great post.

[Expecting Rain]

43. Hillary Could Have Done Better With Camera Awareness...

Last edited Wed Oct 5, 2016, 09:32 PM - Edit history (1)

...but you're right about Kaine. He was situated screen-left, yet his eyes line virtually the whole night (with the exceptions of the times he looked over at Pense) were to look screen left, creating a very awkward situation (and not connecting with home viewers). HRC had a less bad version of the same problem.

In contrast, Pense created the correct eye-line for himself (seated screen-right, looking to center, screen-left) and knew when to directly address the home viewer.

Such things are no small deals. They help one connect with a home audience (or not).

These are rookie mistakes that we can't afford. On style, Kaine was beaten soundly by a guy playing the JV version of the amiable dolt. Good thing Pense wasn't willing/able to defend Trump, because if this were a top-of-the-ticket debate it would have been a loss.

As it is, a narrow win for Kaine. But the amateur-hour prep and not having any awareness that the debate would be settled by a home audience is giving ground to the poorly organized campaign but the one whose chief advantage is (supposedly) having its act together.

They need to do better understanding how to work television cameras and managing eye-lines. It matters.

I wished it was Warren, and still do. She'd have eaten Pense.

[C_U_L8R]

46. Thx. Good analysis.

We can always be doing better.

[Onlooker]

10. Kaine did what he had to do

His job wasn't easy or pretty, but he had to prevent Pence from laying out a coherent Trump vision. Do that, he stayed on the attack and challenged Pence repeatedly to defend Trump. Pence did his best to try to make sense of Trump, but never really got the chance thanks to Kaine's constant attacks.

[LAS14]

61. I cited you in another thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1251&pid=2470844

[TonyPDX]

11. I don't agree-- someone had to interrupt the insanity.

[Madam45for2923]

52. This!

[uponit7771]

12. What the?

[book_worm]

14. blame for what? I thought Kaine won.

[Vinca]

15. I don't think it matters whether he won or lost.

After all, Dan Quayle still became Vice President and no one has failed to that magnitude ever.

[imanamerican63]

27. What about Chenney?

[Vinca]

59. I meant failed at a debate, not failed as a decent human being. Cheney still holds that title.

[imanamerican63]

62. Okay!

[livetohike]

16. I disagree. Letting Pence drone on with all of his lies and then Kaine wouldn't

have time for the actual question because he had to respond to the b.s Pence was spewing.

[BobbyDrake]

17. Mission accomplished: use "blame HRC" in thread somehow.

Obvious BS is obvious.

[JTFrog]

39. ^^^THIS^^^ nt

[bettyellen]

60. Yep, it's transparent - HRC failed even though Pence did not get one good sound bite the whole night

[SamKnause]

18. We are living in bizzarro world.

Facts are being ignored.

Lies are being rewarded.

The liar wins.

The truth teller loses.

WTF !!!

Welcome to 1984.

This country's future hangs by a thread, but don't be rude

or interrupt anyone to tell the truth or explain the facts.

That is a crime that will never be forgiven.

[Solomon]

35. This

+1000

[Sunsky]

47. Exactly

[Cosmocat]

19. THIS is the difference between Ds and Rs

Rs would easily positively frame TK's performance.

We LOVE a guy who is anxious to battle for his POTUS candidate like that. It shows a genuine sense of respect and belief in SOS Clinton. And, a toughness and aggressiveness we need today. You can tell TK won't back down when faced with contentious foreign leaders!

But, Ds ... Oh, gee, TK was too aggressive ...

Yes, TK was in fact a bit too edgy, but it was not remotely that bad and you gotta fight for your fucking candidates, not bend backwards and allow the Rs, WHO NEVER FUCKING BACK DOWN to get the high ground.

Jesus ...

[Funtatlaguy]

22. It's not the debate that matters

It's the post debate media spin.
More people see the spin than the debate itself.
Most media types are all over the interruption meme this morning.

I'm just saying the staff didn't help Kaine. Just my opinion.

But, in scheme of things, this is not a huge deal.
I'm MUCH more interested in what happens on Sunday.
I feel good about the town hall format for HRC.
I think she will be much better at that than Trump will be.
Fingers and toes crossed.
Damn, Nov 8th needs to get here soon. My nerves are frayed...lol.

[Cosmocat]

24. One other point about Kaine's aggressiveness

I think very clearly that part of their math was tweaking Trump and as a bonus sowing some seeds of discontent in the ticket. He has a bit of a slow fuse, but once it gets lit it burns hotter and hotter over time for a good while before it burns out.

They very well might have wanted him to be super aggressive like this to get under Trump's skin and get him riled up all this weak going into the town hall forum.

[bigbrother05]

33. Tend to agree, Trump will be pissed at all the 2020 talk for Pence

His refusal to defend Trump and the weak, "No he didn't" responses did nothing to shore up the ticket.
Pence looked just like one of the early Bond movie henchmen, stoic and grinning before being punched silly by Sean Connery.

[Ms. Toad]

65. They did. While bemoaning their own candidate's "wimpy" performance.

Unfortunately, when I leave my office late at night NPR has rolled over to music - and there are only conservative talk shows to be found.

[Sancho]

20. I agree, overstated. I just watched it again this am...

On second look, Kaine did very well. They are only complaining about "style" because a look at the facts would be a killer.

Pence not only denied many things that Kaine and Trump had said - so there are a bunch of ads there - but for the MAJORITY of Americans and undecided voters; Pense was a big loser:

The Trump foundation was described as criminal.
Kaine repeated (for those who hadn't heard it) that Trump was insulting.
The Russian connections was super bad.
SS privatization!
Immigration (deport 16 million!?), Stop-and-frisk, taxes...every ISSUE would have put independents running for the hills.

Many of those issues were owned by Pence and not just Trump. Pence said dumb things, like "that was a prepared comment" (of course it was!). Pence made faces and rolled his eyes.

The moderator was awful!! Unorganized questions; bad follow ups.

I think Kaine was prepared on the facts!! Style be damned. Who cares about style?

[Cosmocat]

28. Here is why you know he won

EVERY, I mean E V E R Y Presidential/VP debate has a built in handicap for the D by the media.

That it is being spun as a tie or a slight Pence win with no real impact on the race is indicative of the fact that Kaine won it outright.

[blue cat]

30. MSNBC talking heads keep saying

That people who haven't tuned in much wouldn't know all the facts that Kaine was throwing in there. If the public doesn't know facts, it's because the talking heads suck at their jobs.

[Demsrule86]

21. The guy was in Debate club and has run for many offices...

He knows the drill...he did fine in my opinion...tired of the negativity.

[Bettie]

23. If he hadn't interrupted

It would have been 90 minutes of Pence with no one else allowed to speak.

No matter what he did, there would be criticism. He made the effort to get some time in the Pence Show, but the moderator wasn't willing or able to wrangle them into a coherent format.

[Mamajami]

25. But I thought the white alpha males loved interrupters and bold, tough, forceful men?

But I guess that doesn't apply if they are telling the truth with their bluster?

I think Kaine did exactly what he had to do.

[blue cat]

29. Kaine looked strong

But pence looked uptight like he was lying nonstop. We can't depend on our media anymore. That's how trump got on top...the media never interrupting him to inject truth.

[athena]

36. Kaine was also much more likable than Pence.

Oh, wait. Likability is only an issue if you're a woman.

[BumRushDaShow]

31. Remember the DU insults of Obama in his first debate with Romney.

And then try again.

The DU and media hypocrisy is breathtaking.

[R B Garr]

32. Again with this? Kaine said in the beginning he would not let Pence's comments

slide without a rebuttal, considering they were just inaccurate. Pence interrupted constantly, as well.

[tallahasseedem]

34. No chance.

Kaine saw exactly what Pence was doing and did what he had to do to stop it. Look at how the undecided voters responded, all for Kaine. He did what he had to do, he's a veteran at this stuff.

[relayerbob]

38. I agree 100% with everything you say here

[obamanut2012]

64. lolz

[Cakes488]

40. When you debate someone in your own personal life aren't there interruptions???

[ismnotwasm]

41. What, exactly are you talking about?

You are blaming "HRC's Staff"? What the actual fuck..

[Expecting Rain]

44. Yeah...

When you are positioned screen-left and you look screen-left (way from the center of the screen) it creates a very weird effect and makes it hard to "connect" with a viewing audience.

So someone goofed up one of the most basic elements of good television.

I've spent a career working in television. This was a fuck up. And an easily avoided one.

[ismnotwasm]

48. That is interesting and I hadn't thought of it

I noticed that--but didn't think of it in those terms. I still wouldn't blame "HRC's staff" for this--as someone has to be on the apparent?--or screen, left. I just glanced over other debates, the positioning seems to vary.

Who, in your opinion makes that decision of positioning?

[Expecting Rain]

49. It isn't a problem to be screen left...

One just needs to be aware that one's eye-line, in that case, is to look slightly to screen-right (towards center).

If you watch a replay (or rely on memory) there were occasions during the debate where Kaine turned to face Pence (visually confronting him). In these moments Kaine had the correct sort of eye-line for the home viewers, and it made a big difference in how he came off. But then he'd drift back to look "off screen."

I'm sure that for many the weird eye-line was something they weren't fully conscious as "wrong," but these sorts of things undermine television appearances. Pense understood the cameras, Kaine did not.

[ismnotwasm]

50. I see

That makes sense.

[Lucinda]

42. Nope. Kaine did exactly what he needed to. n/t

[Blue Idaho]

45. The Moderator Failed... Pence Bullied

If Kane had waited politely for his turn, Pence would of happily fillibustered the entire 90 minutes. Pence routinely ignored the moderators attempts to call time and the moderator failed to control the event at all.

I'll tell you one thing... if "debates" continue to be as raucous and chaotic as the first two this season, they will cease being important.

[hamsterjill]

51. I felt that Kaine got a lot better in the second half of the debate.

I liked the points that Tim Kaine made in rebuttal to TrumPence's attack on women's rights to control their bodies. Pence went way over the line IMHO as to any moderates with that statement. He (like Trump) couldn't help himself and had to pander to the right extremists. But Pence came across as very controlled.

I sadly have to agree with the Pundits that Pence "won" the debate. But I see the strategy in the Clinton/Kaine camp as this morning the fact checking isn't going so well for TrumPence. Give it a week and I don't think any of this is going to make much difference.

Either way - onward to Sunday night.

[Madam45for2923]

54. I also liked when Kaine said that we cannot ignore racism

[hamsterjill]

55. I agree.

I did, as well.

Welcome to DU!

[tonyt53]

53. Kaine did exactly what he was supposed to do - make Pence defend Trump or deny Trump.

He took his interrupting cue from Joe Biden in his debate with Paul Ryan. Biden did the same thing Kaine did.

[cilla4progress]

56. Anyone else pick up on

Pence's obvious mimicking of Reagan's facial expressions and movements? He obviously practices in front of a mirror.

Yechhhhh.

[Expecting Rain]

57. Yep. Faux Reagan.

We kept saying last night that Pence was doing "the amiable dunce."

[LAS14]

58. I think it was a good tactic. They knew...

... Pence was unflappable (former conservative talk show host). This way the VP debate had a surprise factor. It got talked about. And the media had to highlight the content part of it to "balance" their judgement on the style part of it. In talking about it, if they mention content, they have to talk about Kaine's true references to Trump's idiocies and to Pence's anticipated lies.

[Ms. Toad]

63. The sad thing is -

While I was disappointed by Kaine's behavior, that struck me as rude - the conservative radio station I listen to when I head home after NPR flips to music was praising Kaine for his behavior and bemoaning how wimpy their candidate was. In their opinion (caller after caller - as well as the professional guest pundit) they thought Kaine won because - essentially - he acted more like Trump.

So while I don't like winning for that reason, it apparently didn't hurt.

[Bill USA]

66. Pence is trying to 'sell' slow-wittedness as being thoughtful & considerate. Same a Raygun did.

I don't buy it. That said, I would have counseled kaine to not jump into interrupting the droning Pence right off the bat. Should limit interreptions and if you do interrupt any, not right out of the gate like that. Looks too pugnacious. Pence is playing the "nice guy" image just like ronnie raygun did. Have to be careful with that sly m/o.

[DawgHouse]

67. I disagree. He delivered the message in a way HRC never could.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

68. People won't care in November anyway.

I doubt many people "on the fence" will point to this debate as their tipping point.