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Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 03:48 PM Nov 2016

Critiques of the '16 strategy aren't "hatred"...they're an effort to help us recover.

We have nothing to gain as a party by refusing to listen to people who are offering them.

We won in the popular vote by a large margin, a growing margin, but stating that, true as it is, doesn't help us move forward.

All of us who are posting here now are loyal and we all mourn the defeat.

The best approach is benefit of the doubt.

That's how disappointment this year can turn to celebration in '20.

And that's what we all want, isn't it?

28 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Critiques of the '16 strategy aren't "hatred"...they're an effort to help us recover. (Original Post) Ken Burch Nov 2016 OP
What we all want. HassleCat Nov 2016 #1
Well...all of us on this site, at least I hope. Ken Burch Nov 2016 #2
You are singing the same not over and over again in OP. boston bean Nov 2016 #3
I'm not calling for us to agree with anything Trump does, for God's sakes. Ken Burch Nov 2016 #5
Who said I see you as an enemy. I might be a bit suspicious because of the Bernie posting though... boston bean Nov 2016 #7
I was respectful to her, and got more so as we got closer to the convention. Ken Burch Nov 2016 #8
ok boston bean Nov 2016 #10
I am sickened that the election came out as it did. Ken Burch Nov 2016 #11
some folks got very used to DU being officially a 100% Hillary Criticism-free zone Warren DeMontague Nov 2016 #4
Possibly. Ken Burch Nov 2016 #6
That attitude kept me away. EOM sfwriter Nov 2016 #26
Understandable, but there is a lot of work to be done, so I hope we can all GreenPartyVoter Nov 2016 #28
(Yawn.) Dupe. NurseJackie Nov 2016 #9
Why do you even post here? Ken Burch Nov 2016 #12
Who said you're the "enemy"? WHO? (And why do you feel that way?) NurseJackie Nov 2016 #13
Ad nauseam indeed. nt JTFrog Nov 2016 #14
Everything you've said in response to me is about trying to taunt & shame me into ceasing to post. Ken Burch Nov 2016 #15
Thank you, Ken. Everything you've written here is well said and necessary if we're to win in '20. hedda_foil Nov 2016 #16
Thank you. Ken Burch Nov 2016 #17
Oh, kwitcherpouting! NurseJackie Nov 2016 #20
I have never justified anybody's decision to write in Bernie or to vote Stein. Never would. Ken Burch Nov 2016 #21
It sounds to me like that's what you're doing. Coming right up to the edge, then backing away. NurseJackie Nov 2016 #22
Bernie endorsed Hillary before the convention and campaigned for her all fall. Ken Burch Nov 2016 #23
He delayed and delayed and delayed WAY beyond what anyone could consider to be NurseJackie Nov 2016 #24
constructive criticism is appropriate for a portmortem.we learn no lessons living in our bubbles n/t BREMPRO Nov 2016 #18
There is nothing constructive Erin_Petrovna Nov 2016 #19
I often wish there was a "Like" button or "Rec" button for individual posts. And... NurseJackie Nov 2016 #27
Understanding how the Democratic Party did so poorly in this election is "Very Important" andym Nov 2016 #25
 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
1. What we all want.
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 03:53 PM
Nov 2016

Some people within our party are primarily concerned with getting elected, which they believe they will do by raking in more cash than the other side. So I would say not all of us want exactly the same thing.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
2. Well...all of us on this site, at least I hope.
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 03:56 PM
Nov 2016

My intent was to end the OP on an inclusive note.

boston bean

(36,300 posts)
3. You are singing the same not over and over again in OP.
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 03:56 PM
Nov 2016

And no, most of us, are not going to work with people who think supporting a racist, misogynist, homophobic, xenophobe is ok.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
5. I'm not calling for us to agree with anything Trump does, for God's sakes.
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 04:05 PM
Nov 2016

And I don't want us to work with people who actually support his hate rhetoric and xenophobia.

Those who want us to "move to the center&quot we were actually already IN the center) will basically end up calling for us to do that.

What I'm saying is that we need to find the way to make nonvoters into voters and to get our existing voters TO THE POLLS. Not that we should appease hate.

Why do you see me as the enemy?

I campaigned for Hillary all fall and endorsed her a week before the convention. And I can show you the posts I made begging people to vote Hillary on antifascist grounds and pointing out that some Sanders things were in the platform.

boston bean

(36,300 posts)
7. Who said I see you as an enemy. I might be a bit suspicious because of the Bernie posting though...
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 04:07 PM
Nov 2016

That was terrible.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
8. I was respectful to her, and got more so as we got closer to the convention.
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 04:10 PM
Nov 2016

And I always agreed with you about the "Stockholm Syndrome" thing and did all I could to get it removed(I finally talked the guy into deleting it).

My sole purpose, and the sole purpose of the other people who are posting what seem to me respectful, fact-based critiques of what occurred, is to help us regain the White House and get progressive majorities in both houses by 2020.

That's all I have ever been about here.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
11. I am sickened that the election came out as it did.
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 04:13 PM
Nov 2016

And we're in this together, in whatever way we can be.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
4. some folks got very used to DU being officially a 100% Hillary Criticism-free zone
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 04:00 PM
Nov 2016

I think you're gonna need to give em time to shift gears, here.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
6. Possibly.
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 04:06 PM
Nov 2016

I've tried my best to post in a respectful, non-demonizing, non-personalizing way about what happened.

And I get it that we are still traumatized by the hack.

GreenPartyVoter

(72,603 posts)
28. Understandable, but there is a lot of work to be done, so I hope we can all
Fri Nov 18, 2016, 06:25 AM
Nov 2016

put our differences aside and get to it.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
12. Why do you even post here?
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 04:13 PM
Nov 2016

What you do on this site does nothing to help anything.

I'm not the enemy. Neither are the other critics.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
13. Who said you're the "enemy"? WHO? (And why do you feel that way?)
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 04:46 PM
Nov 2016
Why do you even post here? What you do on this site does nothing to help anything.

Well, that wasn't a nice thing to say to me.

Why do you automatically assume that someone views you as "the enemy" if the only thing they've ever done was challenge you or criticize you? Is this your world view? If so, it's a sad one.

Anyway, it's a dupe post. You're repeating yourself in multiple OP's that say essentially the same thing over and over. I point it out, and you ATTACK me with ugliness like that? To what end? For what purpose? Why do you hate me? What have I ever done to you? It's totally unnecessary.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
15. Everything you've said in response to me is about trying to taunt & shame me into ceasing to post.
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 07:18 PM
Nov 2016

And you did that to other Sanders supporters. Over and over again.

You have no reason to try and stop me or anyone else from offering respectful critiques of what happened. Nothing bad can come from any of those.

And we can't ever win a future election if everyone who backed Bernie is treated like it's all our fault and as if we should have to apologize for supporting the candidate we thought best reflected what we stood for.

You've sneered. You've berated. You've acted like you are entitled to talk down to everyone from some point of inherent superiority, and it's just destructive.

The only reason people are saying things you disagree with is that we want to make sure that what happened last Tuesday never happens again. That we recover and create a long-standing progressive majority, pro-inclusion, pro-social equality, pro-economic justice or equality or whatever you want to call it.

hedda_foil

(16,417 posts)
16. Thank you, Ken. Everything you've written here is well said and necessary if we're to win in '20.
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 07:33 PM
Nov 2016

Not to mention winning in '18, when we have a shit ton more Senators up for reelection than the other party does. Reaportionment of House seats comes hard on the heels of the 2020 election.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
20. Oh, kwitcherpouting!
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 08:33 PM
Nov 2016


You have no reason to try and stop me or anyone else from offering respectful critiques of what happened. Nothing bad can come from any of those.
Only, that's not what I'm doing. If you see it that way, then it's a very imaginative way to victimize yourself. More of the same old "poor me" bullshit! Cut it out!

And we can't ever win a future election if everyone who backed Bernie is treated like it's all our fault and as if we should have to apologize for supporting the candidate we thought best reflected what we stood for.
Can you show me where I've done or suggested such a thing. Go on. Show me. I'll wait.

But, on the other hand, if that's a veiled attempt to justify and defend those who wrote in Bernie's name because they "thought best reflected what we stood for" ... well, then... that's pretty damned disgusting, and you SHOULD be ashamed and you SHOULD apologize for defending them, and they should apologize for skewing things in Trump's favor.

The only reason people are saying things you disagree with is that we want to make sure that what happened last Tuesday never happens again. That we recover and create a long-standing progressive majority, pro-inclusion, pro-social equality, pro-economic justice or equality or whatever you want to call it.

That's your goal? Seriously? Coulda fooled me. Sorry, you're failing. Try again. It's a nice goal and all... but you're going about it the wrong way.

Actually, it kinda looks like "sneering" and "berating" and "talking down" in a "destructive" and almost giddy and celebratory way.






 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
21. I have never justified anybody's decision to write in Bernie or to vote Stein. Never would.
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 08:48 PM
Nov 2016

You actually posted the other day that Bernie and his supporters(you didn't say "people who wrote Bernie in"-a group I'm pretty sure was quite small). You put it on him and on everybody who supported him.

I'm on the way out the door but I'll find that quote and post it here later.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
22. It sounds to me like that's what you're doing. Coming right up to the edge, then backing away.
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 08:55 PM
Nov 2016

Yes... Bernie and his supporters for TEARING DOWN our party's nominee, even after it was obvious that Bernie had no chance. That was disgusting and despicable. Beneath contempt.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
23. Bernie endorsed Hillary before the convention and campaigned for her all fall.
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 09:00 PM
Nov 2016

He couldn't NOT run and he couldn't get out of the race any earlier than he did and keep any sort of faith with his supporters. He'd have ended up like Hubert Humphrey after 1964.

And I hate the some people wrote in Bernie(AGAINST his wishes) or voted Stein. I spent the whole fall, when I wasn't out campaigning, begging people not to do that. Got all sort of shit from some of them.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
24. He delayed and delayed and delayed WAY beyond what anyone could consider to be
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 09:05 PM
Nov 2016

... a reasonable time. He squandered an opportunity for VANITY reasons. Short-sighted and very selfish of him, and of those who continue to defend him for so doing. Even AFTER we've seen the consequences of his selfishness.

Got all sort of shit from some of them.
I'm sorry to hear that.

BREMPRO

(2,331 posts)
18. constructive criticism is appropriate for a portmortem.we learn no lessons living in our bubbles n/t
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 08:17 PM
Nov 2016

agree

 

Erin_Petrovna

(13 posts)
19. There is nothing constructive
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 08:29 PM
Nov 2016

about saying, either explicitly or implicitly, "It should have been Bernie."

It wasn't. It was Hillary. She made some regrettable stumbles in her campaign, but nothing that warranted her losing to the assclown set to take the oath of office on January 20.

All of these "critiques" have the sneering tones of Sanders supporters rushing to say "Toldja so!"

I'm African-American and a woman. I'm tired of white-male rule. I have been in a country dominated by white-male rule for all except 8 of my 32 years on earth. I. Am. Tired.

Sen. Sanders seems like a nice guy. He didn't win the primaries. Just like Hillary didn't win in '08.

It should have been Carol Moseley-Braun once upon a time. Before her, it should have been Shirley Chisolm. It wasn't and it wasn't. People, like my grandmother, were disappointed, but pulled up their big-girl bloomers and moved forward.

As long as you and yours are going 'nyah, nyah shoulda picked Bernie!," there will be nothing constructive said or done here. I'm willing to listen to serious, honest critique. When Sanders supporters are ready to give it without snickering, let me know.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
27. I often wish there was a "Like" button or "Rec" button for individual posts. And...
Fri Nov 18, 2016, 06:14 AM
Nov 2016

... if such a thing existed, I'd definitely use it for this post.

Thank you for clearly pointing out why whining OP's such as this one are just a way to re-hash things that cannot be changed. In spite all the claims of "I'm just trying to help" the fact remains that these types of post cause more harm and reinforce all the bitterness that divides us (only to complain later about all the bitterness that divides us).

andym

(5,519 posts)
25. Understanding how the Democratic Party did so poorly in this election is "Very Important"
Thu Nov 17, 2016, 09:09 PM
Nov 2016

It was not only the loss of the Presidency, although that is a disaster. It is the gain of so few Senate and House seats when in the Senate, the GOP had far more candidates up for re-election. I was especially saddened to see progressives like Feingold and Teachout lose, again demonstrating the political power of conservative ideology and negative campaigning that has dominated US politics since Reagan. I personally believe that Comey was the decisive factor (and thought that it was terrible news as soon as I heard the news that gloomy Friday), but that other factors did play a role as well. Let's just say that I am convinced that President Obama would have won even key red states against Trump had he been allowed to run again.

As for the climate at DU, I have thought for some time the 20xx primary forums (not just in 2016, but in 2008 and 2004) should not have existed as they just help create bad feelings among Democratic Party activists and supporters. Fortunately DU has relatively small impact in the grand scheme of things, but it does indeed have some impact, especially through ripple effects and through activism, and as such should not help create enmity.

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