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Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:18 PM

 

The first woman EVER was running, and Trump got 42% of the female vote; abortion issue to blame?

I'm not saying that the Democratic Party needs to change its stance on abortion, but I think we do need to recognize that it's as divisive an issue as ever and that we're losing millions of votes over it, and think about new communication strategies.

Over the last few years I've noticed a trend where so many progressives, especially here on DU, have seemed to bubble themselves off from reality and assume that the only opposition to abortion is coming from old, white men and that ALL women are pro-choice because, well, why wouldn't they be? They're women, it's their bodies, etc.

The reality is that there are still TENS OF MILLIONS of women in this country that, whether for religious, moral or whatever reasons (I tend to think mostly religious), are against abortion. They consider it the murder of a child, and it's especially potent for them if they are mothers themselves (or at least women who have tried to have a child). And even though abortion rights are the law and it's a settled matter, and there are tons of other issues on the ballot, including the incredible misogyny of Donald Trump and the opportunity to vote for the first female candidate, a candidate being for or against that "murder of a child" is a dealbreaker for them.

I suspect there are hundreds of thousands of female voters, maybe MILLIONS, who disagreed with Trump on nearly every single issue, were incredibly offended by his rhetoric, and agreed with Clinton on nearly every single issue. But the fact that he could claim he was against abortion, while she proudly supported it, was the dealbreaker (especially late-term abortions).

The question is, is there anything at all that we can do to stop people from making their voting decision on this single (already settled) issue? Think about it. Wouldn't your vote be affected if, in your mind, you were choosing between someone who is pro-murder and someone who is anti-murder? What can we do differently on this issue? What framing needs to occur?



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Reply The first woman EVER was running, and Trump got 42% of the female vote; abortion issue to blame? (Original post)
MadDAsHell Nov 2016 OP
NCTraveler Nov 2016 #1
TheBlackAdder Nov 2016 #45
duffyduff Nov 2016 #57
vi5 Nov 2016 #2
dhol82 Nov 2016 #3
MadDAsHell Nov 2016 #5
uppityperson Nov 2016 #10
hollowdweller Nov 2016 #41
uppityperson Nov 2016 #4
MadDAsHell Nov 2016 #7
elehhhhna Nov 2016 #38
katsy Nov 2016 #78
BlueStreak Nov 2016 #68
uppityperson Nov 2016 #72
BlueStreak Nov 2016 #73
uppityperson Nov 2016 #75
MadDAsHell Nov 2016 #79
BlueStreak Nov 2016 #88
Cosmocat Nov 2016 #6
NewJeffCT Nov 2016 #8
MadDAsHell Nov 2016 #13
NewJeffCT Nov 2016 #15
mtnsnake Nov 2016 #9
LexVegas Nov 2016 #11
CrispyQ Nov 2016 #12
MadDAsHell Nov 2016 #14
CrispyQ Nov 2016 #16
MadDAsHell Nov 2016 #18
CrispyQ Nov 2016 #19
MadDAsHell Nov 2016 #20
LexVegas Nov 2016 #21
MadDAsHell Nov 2016 #22
LexVegas Nov 2016 #23
MadDAsHell Nov 2016 #24
LexVegas Nov 2016 #25
MadDAsHell Nov 2016 #37
LexVegas Nov 2016 #40
CrispyQ Nov 2016 #30
MadDAsHell Nov 2016 #33
CrispyQ Nov 2016 #39
AgadorSparticus Nov 2016 #54
mtnsnake Nov 2016 #26
Buckeye_Democrat Nov 2016 #17
Garrett78 Nov 2016 #85
zipplewrath Nov 2016 #27
MadDAsHell Nov 2016 #28
KT2000 Nov 2016 #29
athena Nov 2016 #35
KT2000 Nov 2016 #42
djsunyc Nov 2016 #60
yeoman6987 Nov 2016 #51
duffyduff Nov 2016 #59
KT2000 Nov 2016 #66
Budee Nov 2016 #65
KT2000 Nov 2016 #69
virgogal Nov 2016 #31
kelly1mm Nov 2016 #32
RobinA Nov 2016 #50
still_one Nov 2016 #34
Spider Jerusalem Nov 2016 #36
davidn3600 Nov 2016 #43
athena Nov 2016 #44
JTFrog Nov 2016 #62
Spider Jerusalem Nov 2016 #48
.99center Nov 2016 #46
SammyWinstonJack Nov 2016 #47
OhioBlue Nov 2016 #49
duffyduff Nov 2016 #56
raging moderate Nov 2016 #58
OhioBlue Nov 2016 #63
duffyduff Nov 2016 #64
Grey Lemercier Nov 2016 #86
JI7 Nov 2016 #52
emulatorloo Nov 2016 #53
duffyduff Nov 2016 #55
Barack_America Nov 2016 #61
spin Nov 2016 #67
LostOne4Ever Nov 2016 #70
Megahurtz Nov 2016 #71
MadDAsHell Nov 2016 #80
NickB79 Nov 2016 #74
MadDAsHell Nov 2016 #81
liquid diamond Nov 2016 #76
RelativelyJones Nov 2016 #77
BainsBane Nov 2016 #82
MadDAsHell Nov 2016 #83
BainsBane Nov 2016 #84
Statistical Nov 2016 #87
Midwestern Democrat Nov 2016 #89

Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:19 PM

1. Yes, women voted in large for Clinton. Not even close. nt.

 

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 07:35 PM

45. Evangelicals and orthodox women consistently vote 45% conservative, even against the E.R.A.

.


I took a Woman and Politics course that was taught by a doctor at Rutgers Eagleton's CAWP.

CAWP is the only college institute that is dedicated to woman and politics: http://www.cawp.rutgers.edu/


The high GOP vote count by women, does not deviate from norms of the past 40 years, abortion was not the factor.

There are a lot of women who are indoctrinated into a paternalistic society.


.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #45)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 12:27 AM

57. They didn't "vote against" the ERA. State legislatures dominated by white males,

 

especially Mormons, did that. So did state legislatures with powerful insurance industry interests.

Let's quit trying to rewrite history. I was around then.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:24 PM

2. Maybe some but not all to blame....

 

I know more than a few white woman who are not even religious let alone pro-life, and they loathed Hillary. I could honestly never figure it out. Again, while I disagree with the abortion and religious issues of conservative white women, at least I can understand why they would vote the way they did especially with Pence on the ticket. But not being pro-life or religious and still voting against Hillary? I could never put my finger on it. Especially since these are the type of women who post annoying memes and sayings on their facebook pages about being strong women, or being bitchy or the whole "If you can't handle me at my worst then you don't deserve me at my best" BS. How they rationalized voting for a sexual predator is beyond me. The only thing I can point to is the fact that Trump told them it was o.k. to be racist.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:25 PM

3. What is your suggestion?

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Response to dhol82 (Reply #3)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:41 PM

5. I want to hear other's ideas (if they agree it's an issue for us). But personal opinion...

 

Stop coming at it from a "They're trying to take away our rights" standpoint. Or a "War on Women" standpoint. Stop trotting out the Sandra Flukes of the world to accuse everyone who votes Republican of hating women.

Instead, acknowledge (as President Obama has done but very few other Democratic politicians or leaders have) that those who oppose abortion are completely justified in their beliefs if they truly believe it's murder. That while we disagree with their opinion, we respect why it's such an important issue for them.

Then bring their attention to the fact that while we respect their passionate opinion on this issue, basing their vote solely on the candidate's personal opinion on abortion is a wasted vote, because it's settled law at this point and is highly unlikely to ever be completely overturned.

Bring their attention to the anti-choice candidate's stances that don't encourage women to carry their unborn children to term: cutting food, housing, and healthcare support for poorer women, cutting support for schools, etc. Show them how the anti-choice candidate is helping to create an environment which is not very appealing for a woman who is choosing whether or not to abort her pregnancy.

I think these are effective strategies; simply saying "He hates women" (or absurdly, "She hates women" is not.

Just a few thoughts.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #5)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:50 PM

10. Yet so many of them who think abortion is murder have no problem with the death penalty or war

We do use those strategies you write, and they are not effective for too many. THAT is the problem. Not that we don't use those strategies because we do. But they chose to not care.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #5)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 06:53 PM

41. Wasn't abortion. I knew a lot of independant women who were for Trump.

 


They just didn't like Clinton as a person.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:36 PM

4. Abortion rarely came up during this campaign, don't see it as an issue over the others. But what

would you suggest?

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #4)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:46 PM

7. You are correct, it barely came up. But how many immediately had their minds made up because of it?

 

I think way more voters than we think immediately know who they're going to vote for, purely based on the (R) & (D) and their assumption of the candidate's stance on abortion based on that party affiliation.

All of those people could not be swayed by a single negative thing Drumpf did, simply because they had made their minds up from the beginning that they couldn't vote for someone who was "pro-murder."

My guess is there are millions of straight-Republican ticket voters based solely on that single (settled) issue.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #7)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 05:02 PM

38. Too fucking bad.

 

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #7)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 05:37 PM

78. But these women also voted for PBO so why turn their back on HRC?

I don't think HRC could've done anything more to win them over & I don't think abortion had anything to do with their exodus from the dems.

Bigotry, racism & self loathing women was what i saw. These weren't women concerned about their well being & economy as much as angry low info fangirls.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #4)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 01:15 AM

68. It had zero to do with abortion, pro or con.

 

The issue is that this was one of the least trusted women on the planet before the general election started and Trump hammered "Crooked Hillary" nonstop for 75 days. Clinton did practically nothing to counter that. If anything she made matters worse by never giving a clear answer on the email thing. There were far better answers available to her.

The whole thing was a monumental miscalculation, on the part of the campaign team, and by the Party bosses. If this point hasn't yet sunk into to the good folks of DU then we probably aren't going to make much progress.

While I believe we are looking at 4 years of hell including the most corrupt administration ever and a heavy economic recession, we should at least be honest that Trump worked his ass off campaigning. While the Clinton campaign did little more than fundraisers from Aug 1 to well after Labor Day, Trump was out there almost every single day. He probably saw 20 times as many people in person as Clinton saw and that was decisive. You couldn't turn on any channel for 2 months without seeing that Kellyanne Conway riffing about nonsense. How many times did you see Clinton's campaign manager on the air? Try zero. Does anybody here even know who her campaign manager was?

These things add up.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #68)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 01:47 AM

72. Trump worked his ass off while Clinton did little campaigning? He saw people and was "decisive"?

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #72)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 11:00 AM

73. I said his campaigning was decisive.

 

If you think Hillary campaigned at the same level Trump did, you are delusional. He was out there every day with LARGE rallies. She went 40 days after the convention doing numerous fund raisers and a few small greetings, but almost no large rallies. It was as if her campaign manager told her "Don't worry. We are way ahead in the polls. And nothing important happens until the debates.

And where was that campaign manager? Do you even know who her campaign manager was? We saw Kellyanne Conway 50 times a day. I find that woman loathsome, but she worked her ass off too.

When Obama ran, we saw Axelrod all the time, and we saw Plouffe a lot. That is an important part of making the case, ESPECIALLY when you have a candidate with such high negatives and so much baggage.

Democrats had better learn some lessons here. So far it doesn't seem that is happening.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #73)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 03:38 PM

75. Sinking to insults means the discussion is over.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #73)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 01:42 AM

79. Agreed. If anything, everyone seems intent on losing even more in the future. WTF. nt

 

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #79)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 09:58 AM

88. Lots of group think here

 

Einstein said "The definition of insanity is doing something over and over again and expecting the same result"

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:45 PM

6. The 30 year slander of hillary

They just so relentlessly tore her down even non conservative assholes just came to think of her as evil.

I know exceptionally liberal 40 year old women who didnt vote for her.

My wife is mildly left leaning and hated her, I had to give her space all year on it, and it took a brief talk the morning of to get her to vote for hillary, and she knows trump is a pos scumbag.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:47 PM

8. Romney got 44% of the female vote

so, Trump's outrageous acts against women only cost him 2%.

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Response to NewJeffCT (Reply #8)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:55 PM

13. That's exactly what I'm saying; yet I bet a pro-choice stance would have cost him millions of votes.

 

We have to find a way to reframe this debate.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #13)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:59 PM

15. Trump never would have won the primaries

if he was pro choice.

And, despite his lack of awareness on almost every issue of importance, Trump did choose wisely with Pence. Pence helped give him credibility with the evangelical voters/conservative Christians. Chris Christie would not have done that for Trump (wasn't Christie the original first choice?)

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:48 PM

9. Good question. I think the other stumbling block is guns.

No matter how much more it would be in their best interests to vote for a Democrat, there are way too many voters who will never vote for a Democrat because of abortion and the false perception they have about gun control.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:53 PM

11. What the fuck? nt

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:54 PM

12. Good fucking grief, do I miss unrec!

For several years now, republican (mostly) men have made horrendous comments about women & women's reproductive choices. State legislators have implemented restrictive laws in many states to limit access to abortion. Fuck your arrogant (already settled) issue bullshit.

It is not already settled & our rights are even more at risk than ever before!

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #12)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:58 PM

14. So apparently you think we should write those millions of potential votes off?

 

That millions of potential votes aren't worth the minimal effort it would take to examine how we could reframe the issue?

I see. Interesting. And noted.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #14)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:02 PM

16. Yes. If it means capitulating on choice, then absolutely, yes. Write them off.

I can't believe I'm reading this on a democratic board! And above, the poster who thinks we need to back off the gun issue. Why don't we just turn into pre-Trump republicans? Think of all the votes we can get if we do that.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #16)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:04 PM

18. There are 17 posts in this thread; show me the one that says we should capitulate on choice.

 

I think you might be getting confused; take a break for a little bit.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #18)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:06 PM

19. The most important decision a woman can make, isn't yours.

There. I reframed it for you.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #19)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:14 PM

20. Sounds like a winning argument. Worked well this year. And 2014. And 2012. And 2010.

 

Can I hire you as our permanent National Campaign Strategist?

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #20)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:16 PM

21. Lots of racists voted for Trump...maybe we should try something else on the civil rights thing. nt

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #21)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:23 PM

22. 4 brutal elections in a row, & another poster that suspiciously wants to change nothing; interesting

 

Nevermind that in the last 6-7 years we've lost 900+ state legislature seats, 12 governors, 69 House seats, and 13 Senate seats.

We're not going to change a thing!!! Because, gosh darn it, we're right!!!!

I'm not sure who is more ignorant, the racists who voted for Trump, or the folks in our Party who think "being right" is a winning strategy.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #22)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:24 PM

23. Lots of homophobes voted for Trump...we should rethink the gay marriage thing. nt

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #23)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:29 PM

24. Let me know your preferred candidates in the future, so I can place some opposite bets in Vegas :)

 

I have a feeling you're going to make me a lot of money.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #24)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:30 PM

25. Lots of xenophobes voted for Trump...may we should jettison the Muslims, huh? nt

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #25)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 05:02 PM

37. You ever seen the Tin Cup scene where Kevin Costner's character keeps hitting it in the water?

 

Check it out, the strategy might look familiar to you, although I doubt you'll have as happy an ending with your personal approach to politics as he did in golf.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #37)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 06:37 PM

40. How many recs you got on this dogshit OP?

You wonder why?

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #20)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:46 PM

30. And trying to reach out to zealots who equate abortion with murder is a winning strategy?

That will only weaken the resolve of dems to support a woman's right to choose. They will frame the debate to get the votes of unreasonable zealots & next thing you know they are backing off legislation, too, for fear it might offend the goddamned zealots. Fine. Go with that. This is only one of the reasons I'm no longer a dem. They don't know how to draw a line in the sand & say, "We're not crossing that."

But thank you for your concern, since you think it's already a settle issue.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #30)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 04:03 PM

33. What's interesting is that you had a reasonable point, and it got completely lost in your approach.

 

You could have simply responded to my question with a rational, reasoned, intelligent response around your fears of opening a can of worms.. Instead, it was:

-Good fucking grief
-do I miss unrec!
-Fuck your arrogant (already settled) issue bullshit.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #33)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 05:29 PM

39. Well, I don't think your point is reasonable in the least & your approach got lost in stating that

these are (already settled) issues and implying that we should reach out to zealots, who will never see beyond their ideology, to find common ground on this issue. There is no common ground to "the most important decision a woman can make, isn't yours."

That said, I could have counted to 10 before posting.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #20)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 12:08 AM

54. Reframe it? You mean tell the truth? B/c there is an awful lot of misinformation out there about ab

And it goes back to the media and their agenda. Supporting women's choice is not a losing endeavor. Lack of real information is a losing endeavor for us.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #16)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:33 PM

26. No one said to anything close to backing off the abortion or gun issues. Good grief.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:03 PM

17. Trump received a majority of votes from WHITE women.

That shocked me.

It was mostly African American women who swung women, overall, in Hillary's favor.

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Response to Buckeye_Democrat (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 02:29 AM

85. Yep, and Trump only lost by 6 points among white women with college degrees, according to exit polls

But I don't find it shocking. It's par for the course. Women of color, college degree or not, voted overwhelmingly for Clinton.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:36 PM

27. Not the issue

I don't think that the data supports a position that the abortion issue is the deciding factor in women supporting, or not, a candidate, much less finding a female candidate preferable. My perception, heavily influenced in my spouses work with domestic violence victims, is that women tend to make political choices heavily influenced by spouses. Not all women by any stretch, probably on the order of 20-30%. But I often find that women of a certain class/condition tend to be the "diplomats" in relationships and they tend towards a "get along to go along" strategy. The extreme example are the women that are drawn towards these close, polygamist societies, but also the Christian women that accept a male/husband dominated authority within the relationship. Again, a minority by far, but they exist none the less. Mix in another 10% or so that truly are some sort of social/economic conservatives and you're well on your way to 42%. That glass ceiling is in part because of an unconscious bias of women.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #27)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:37 PM

28. We disagree, but you make good points; thanks for the thoughtful response. nt

 

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:41 PM

29. why has the Equal Rights Amendment

not been ratified? Many women do not want it - such as many conservatives. They are happy with their position in life and feel threatened by women who succeed in traditionally male positions. They believe they may have to do the same but they prefer being "taken care of."
Someone knew that many women hold an animosity toward Clinton - how dare she!! Then they played on that to give reasons to not support her. Many women absolutely hate Hillary but cannot tell you why - or more likely they will not tell you why.

Anyone who thought Clinton would win most of the women vote does not understand women and it is not the abortion issue.

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Response to KT2000 (Reply #29)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 04:25 PM

35. Exactly! And beautifully stated!

The reason most white women voted against Hillary is the same reason most white men voted against Hillary: misogyny. Women are just as misogynistic as men are. Those who think that women can't be misogynists do not understand what misogyny is.

They are happy with their position in life and feel threatened by women who succeed in traditionally male positions. They believe they may have to do the same but they prefer being "taken care of."


This is exactly right. This is why one doesn't see the same sort of solidarity among women as one does among members of other minority groups. Many women are very conflicted about feminism and equality. They accept what patriarchy has taught them about their own inferiority because it gives them a feeling of security.

Many women absolutely hate Hillary but cannot tell you why - or more likely they will not tell you why.


The idea of being lead by a woman makes many women extremely uncomfortable because it challenges their notions of men's and women's roles in society. Rather than admit that they have been held back by society's sexism, they would prefer to think that women are naturally inferior. A woman who is the equal of men in ambition, intelligence, capability, and courage seems completely wrong to them: there must be something unnatural and evil about the woman that she is hiding from them.

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Response to athena (Reply #35)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 06:59 PM

42. thanks - I expected

some slings and arrows - whew!

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Response to athena (Reply #35)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 12:34 AM

60. great post

i agree.

ann marie cox also presented this POV on bill maher's show. she felt women never competed with men b/c of their status in society as 2nd class citizens. therefore women's only real competition was with other women and minorities. in the case of this election, race trumped gender.

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Response to KT2000 (Reply #29)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 11:57 PM

51. I thought for sure we'd finally get it in 2009 but it wasn't even brought up.

 

Not sure when we'll get it.

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Response to KT2000 (Reply #29)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 12:33 AM

59. How old are you? The ERA has been a nonstarter for nearly 35 YEARS.

 

That was thanks to the idiot time limit that was put on the amendment. It wasn't "women" who fought against it, Schlafly's Eagle Forum stunt notwithstanding. It was state legislatures that were white male Mormon-dominated that voted against it and legislatures heavily influenced by the insurance industry which would have lost billions of dollars in profits if they treated men and women the same. Insurance companies are regulated by the states and have a lot of influence on legislation in those states. Schlafly was a useful idiot for those business interests.

Still, the vast majority of states ratified the ERA, just not the 3/4ths needed.

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Response to duffyduff (Reply #59)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 01:09 AM

66. Old enough to have seen

the term "Women's lib" and "feminist" turned into words used against women. Old enough to have seen women distance themselves from the concept as well, for fear of being called those names.
In Washington state insurance can not charge differently for men and women, which was one successful thing that came out of that but there are many women who found the issue unfeminine.
Yes - I lived through that time and had many discussions with women who rejected equality.

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Response to KT2000 (Reply #29)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 01:04 AM

65. hmm

 

Many women do not want it - such as many conservatives. They are happy with their position in life and feel threatened by women who succeed in traditionally male positions. They believe they may have to do the same but they prefer being "taken care of."


Different strokes for different folks. If some women prefer getting married, having babies and relying on their husband that is just as valid of choice as being a career woman.

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Response to Budee (Reply #65)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 01:18 AM

69. No one said it is not

a valid choice. The discussion was about why many women did not vote for Clinton and why there was this hatred of her from women. I offered an explanation that I think is true. Some women have issues with women who seek male dominated positions. I suggest they feel threatened.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:53 PM

31. Some women just didn't like Hillary

 

and wouldn't vote for her even if she was the first woman candidate.

Men vote against certain men all of the time and I'm sure that many men voted for Hillary.

The sex of the candidate shouldn't matter.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 03:53 PM

32. Both my MIL and FIL in PA voted for Trump due to their pro-life beliefs. I agree that we don't

need to change our position but it would be foolish to believe we don't lose some votes on abortion and gun issues.

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Response to kelly1mm (Reply #32)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 11:42 PM

50. Well, Every Position

"Loses" votes if you want to look at it that way. Apparently the only thing these days that doesn't lose votes is mocking a handicapped person on the podium with TV cameras rolling.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 04:25 PM

34. The Democratic position is that it is between a woman and her doctor, and no one elses business

and her position was choice, not pro abortion.

And how many of those so-called voters are out their adopting unwanted children?

How many of those supported invading Iraq, not once but twice, and fostering an 8 year war between Iraq and Iran where millions of lives were lost

I promise I won't force them to have an abortion

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 04:51 PM

36. Nope

"44% of the female vote", but more notably, over 50% of the WHITE female vote. Trump wouldn't have done that well among women without white women. Every other demographic of female voter went for Clinton.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #36)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 07:18 PM

43. That's not uncommon.

 

Minority women typically vote Democratic pretty strongly and reliably. White women tend to be a far more complex. White women vote in all sorts of different ways depending on their geographic location, age, education, marital status, etc.

But no matter how you look at it...the fact 53% of white women voted for Trump has to absolutely be a total disappointment not just for Hillary but feminism as a whole. Trump may be the most misogynistic candidate in the modern political era. Yet women voted for him over the first potential female president? This wasn't John McCain or Marco Rubio or half-way decent person. This was Donald Trump!
That's bad....no matter how you twist it. It's bad. And it's something feminists will be trying to figure out and explain for years to come. There's some type type of disconnect there between Democrats and white women. And that needs more attention.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #43)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 07:23 PM

44. Feminists are not surprised.

This is nothing new. Go over to the History of Feminism forum, and you'll see that feminists have always known that female gender does not make one a feminist.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125559733

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Response to athena (Reply #44)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 12:37 AM

62. Oh please don't send him there, lol.

 

I don't think he could adhere to the SOP of that group.



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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #43)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 10:00 PM

48. The answer is pretty obvious to me

over half of white women voted for the candidate running on a platform of xenophobia and banning Muslims and deporting Mexicans. That's not "far more complex", that's "far more racist". I'm simultaneously both bemused and disappointed by the evident reluctance of so many (white) people to admit the role of bigotry in Trump winning a majority of white voters.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 07:40 PM

46. I think it had more to do with Islamophobia and securing the border.

There were some stunning polls after the primaries that showed the majority of 45+ white woman supported Muslim bans and building a wall, even democrats in the demographic showed close to 25% support for the wall and even higher for a Muslim ban.

I don't want to rehash anything, but my god was it frustrating watching the attacks on the youth at DU as her support among older white women was plunging.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 09:57 PM

47. Seriously...

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Wed Nov 23, 2016, 11:40 PM

49. Yes, I agree with you that we need to better frame the subject

I think it should be a woman's health issue. Abortions have always happened regardless of the legality. My great-grandmother died from an illegal and unsafe abortion which essentially orphaned her 3 children as their father was an alcoholic that abdicated his parental duties. This left my grandma at age 5, to be raised by her aunt for whom she always talked about with love and gratitude. He life was greatly affected tho. I remember near the end of her life, battling bouts of senility, she once asked my mom as we entered her room, "Are you my mother?"

Besides that, we are talking about a medical procedure. When I had a tubal pregnancy, the medical code for the D&C to determine if I miscarried or if it was tubal was "abortion". I remember the nurse told me not to be upset over the paperwork. I was surprised. The word on the paper was the least of my concerns. I very much wanted a baby. I was glad tho that through medical care, my tubes didn't rupture and harm my chances for another pregnancy.

We shouldn't ban medical procedures. Nobody is pro-abortion. The Dem's have campaigned before that we need to make them "legal, safe and rare". We do this by empowering women, education, and providing safety nets for those that feel there is no hope.

We need to make the focus on people and not a medical procedure. There are thousands of different reasons why a woman seeks an abortion, some elective, some circumstantial and some medically necessary. For the elective, we focus on policies such as education to reduce unwanted pregnancies, for the circumstantial, we focus on support for mothers that don't know how to support another baby or work through a pregnancy, for medically necessary, there should be no governmental interference. Trust women.

I don't know how to message it, I know it needs to be short and repeated. But what the so called "pro-life" movement has done to threaten women's health is reprehensible and I don't think many of them even realize the effects if they got what they wished. Their movement plays on emotions and ours on logic. We need to move it to an emotional appeal.

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Response to OhioBlue (Reply #49)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 12:22 AM

56. Framing has nothing to do with it. You cannot change their mindset.

 

If you are a woman who has been raised all her life to think her only value in life is to be a wife and a mother to some guy, beliefs reinforced by institutions like conservative churches, you are not ever going to change.

People around here just do not get it with the right-wing mindset. These women--and the white dudes some are saying the Dems should court--are impossible to reach. They live in a bubble, and they refuse to listen to anybody outside of that bubble.

They are unreachable.

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Response to duffyduff (Reply #56)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 12:31 AM

58. I know some who are mad because some people say "Happy Holidays."

Quick, everybody, start saying " Merry Christmas" to right wing people as often as you can!

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Response to duffyduff (Reply #56)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 12:38 AM

63. Framing has everything to do with the issue

There may be some that are unreachable, but that isn't our target audience. There are many in the middle. The overall message on abortion from the anti-choice groups has been winning. George HW Bush was pro-choice before he was anit-choice, even Trump was in the pro-choice camp before he ran.

This isn't an issue that can be changed by one candidate or in one election cycle. The right has been working for decades to frame their message, target their electorate and hone their messages. We need to do better and not give up on our messages.

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Response to OhioBlue (Reply #63)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 12:39 AM

64. The "middle" is not the issue. It is the right-wing mindset. It cannot change. n/t

 

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Response to duffyduff (Reply #56)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 06:49 AM

86. this is truth, they will NEVER change

 

Last edited Sun Nov 27, 2016, 05:30 PM - Edit history (1)

Its all so terribly depressing and so hard to explain to non Americans. I find the best comparison is to use the religiously insane anti human Muslim countries.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 12:06 AM

52. it's mostly white women and it's more about race .

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 12:08 AM

53. Abortion or the Comey letter?

HRC was up in the polls, Comey letter reversed that trend.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 12:17 AM

55. Abortion and the USSC

 

The issue is a bunch of shit, but you have to understand their mindset. While women who support legal abortion feel it is important to have that option for self-determination, there are millions of women who see legal abortion as a way to undercut their power of pregnancy, intended or not, as a way to control men.

Having abortion illegal (and birth control) ties these men to them who they feel would otherwise walk away from them, leaving them destitute (these women KNOW how poorly women fare in the job market, blather about glamorous careers notwithstanding). These women believe there is no real option other than marriage--they see how poorly single women fare economically--so men are a constant presence in their lives, whether or not these men are good husbands.

It is all about power with these women, and forced pregnancy is a form of power for them.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 12:34 AM

61. It's more than this; it's deep-rooted conflict regarding the role of women...

...and the diminishing role of men in a globalized economy.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 01:13 AM

67. My son in law told me that his mother initially told him that she planned to vote ...

for Hillary just to cancel out her husband's vote for Trump. However when she found out Hillary's position on abortion she decided to vote for Trump.

I do remember her saying once while she was visiting that she thought Trump was obnoxious. However she was very enthusiastic about his win on the day after the election.



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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 01:23 AM

70. I am against in anyway backing down from a Pro-Choice position

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=#009999]We should support the right of every woman to their own body and oppose any attempt to restrict that or shame them for their decisions. If this drives away some voters then that is better than supporting a party that doesn't even believe that people have a right to autonomy.

If we are going to make any change on this issue it should be greater promotion of contraception and the promotion of our policy on social safety nets that help provide for the families of poor women who CHOSE to give birth but need assistance in taking care of them.[/font]

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 01:30 AM

71. Too Fucking Bad

Sorry. If you are not a woman then you have fuck all to say about it. Everyone else needs to CAN IT. Not your body, not your business etc.

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Response to Megahurtz (Reply #71)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 01:49 AM

80. Yes, 4 brutal election losses in a row are "too bad." nt

 

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 11:18 AM

74. Women can be gun-humping, xenophobic, high school dropout, racist assholes too, ya know

This goes deeper than just the abortion issue.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #74)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 01:52 AM

81. Deeper? Most of DU is telling me race is the ONLY thing that mattered in this election.

 

Go figure, I thought both candidates were white.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 03:54 PM

76. This post

 

reminds me of all those fucking "We need to convince racist whites to vote for us" threads. What the hell is going on at DU?

Face it. Some issues aren't negotiable.

As of now your thread has zero recs and rightfully so.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Thu Nov 24, 2016, 04:04 PM

77. I respect that you are trying to build a bridge

But there is none. A woman's right to choose is non-negotiable and ensuring that lower income women have access to quality healthcare for family planning is non-negotiable. Growing up a strict Catholic I know you must be firm on this.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 02:07 AM

82. My, you're awfully anxious to get rid of women's rights

to compete for the Republican voter.

Hell, no. Not going to happen. You obviously haven't bothered to look at polling on the issue because it's clearly on the Democratic side. But even if it weren't, equal rights are not negotiable.

Note: I am restraining the anger I feel at reading your post. The way you casually suggest doing away with the rights of the majority of Democratic voters is disgusting.

I find it interesting that the same people who have insisted that the Democratic Party is the GOP lite are anxious to throw away the rights and concerns of the Democratic base--women and people of color--in order to make it GOP/Trump lite,

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #82)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 02:20 AM

83. "The way you casually suggest doing away with the rights of the majority of Democratic voters"

 

Kindly find and quote where I or anyone else in this thread suggested that and I will be happy to delete it.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #83)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 02:22 AM

84. Is your OP not about winning over the pro-life voter?

and how abortion rights are too divisive?

It was hardly discussed in the campaign at all, so absent an about change of position, I don't know what you could imagine they should do differently.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

Fri Nov 25, 2016, 09:10 AM

87. There is absolutely no evidence to indicate that abortion was a major issue.

Yes some portion of (mostly evengelical mostly married mostly non-college educated) women against Clinton. They also voted against Obama twice, and Kerry, and Gore.

To quote a smart Democrat:
"It is the economy stupid"

Trump gave people in the rust belt platitudes and false hope but we has talking to them about what mattered. The Democrats failed to convince working class voters that they were the better choice of the economy.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Original post)

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