2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumRepeal the 2nd Amendent
Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:31 PM - Edit history (1)
The Amendment was written over 200 years ago by privileged white guys that owned slaves who were unwilling to foresee the number of gun violence tragedies our country is facing.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Significantly higher.
I don't think they were unaccustomed to gun violence.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)handle gun ownership/rights and model ours accordingly? Our second amendment is incredibly anachronistic and inconsistent with our modern society's needs in order to function properly. Obvously something is terribly wrong when you have a society that has to put up with mass murders of its citizens in the name of a "right" of the "people." Plus, it doesn't make sense.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)It's pretty widely studied. Murder rates have been dropping steadily worldwide since the 1600s
ancianita
(36,095 posts)Background checked, trained, and tested, would produce licensed gun users, with the same procedure repeated for license renewal every four years, as is done with cars. Instead of the DMV, states could use add-on software databases in a different office, and call the overall facility the DGMV, Department of Guns and Motor Vehicles.
A dramatic re-regulation of gun USE is required as much as the background check enforcement.
rock
(13,218 posts)I would trust no modern Congress to change the Constitution in any way.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)we need to change our view of guns and those who love/abuse them.
jody
(26,624 posts)that words on paper can not repeal a preexisting right.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)I cannot believe you are saying that.
jody
(26,624 posts)the enjoying and defending life and liberty".
What you and I are discussing is what is the most effective tool to use to exercise that right.
810,000 LEOs choose handguns for self-defense so it should not surprise you that handguns are also the choice by law-abiding citizens to exercise their right to self-defense.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)That is as politically impossible as repealing the right of women to vote or reinstating Prohibition would be, probably significantly more so, actually.
Regulations? Of course. Repealing one of the dearest-held portions of the Bill of Rights? Nope.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)That is why an amendment (either adding or repealing one) hasn't been done in a long time. I would bet it won't happen (on any issue) before I leave this earth. It would take a pretty good public outcry for it to happen (and I'm not saying there should be one).
jimmy the one
(2,708 posts)There's some misinformation floating about on this thread, be more careful of what you contend.
The 2ndAmendment was written in 1791 which is about 221 years ago, altho you might be thinking of previous colonial 'have arms' decrees which it was based upon. There were relatively few murders in the rev-war era, sometimes cities having none for years then a couple etc.
2ndA was originally meant as a militia based right to keep/bear arms (RKBA) for collective defense against rebellion & foreign invasion.
There was no comparable modern dichotomy between 'militia based' vs 'individual RKBA' theories when it was written, for muskets were not plentiful & were single shot & risky for self defense when a long knife, sword, or club was more desirable. The prevailing thought was you could own a firearm if you could afford it, and use it for whatever justifiable reason came up, but the constitutional 2ndA RKBA was meant to put you armed in the citizens militia.
.. 2ndA was written in 1791 as I said, & the next year 1792 the 'Militia Act of 1792' was written, which made law that every white male between 17 & 45 was to serve in his state militia once a year for duty, & was to provide his own musket (if he had one). So this was no coincidence, 2ndA written in 1791 & the militia act in 1792, the latter spelled out the rules for what the 2ndA had written.
.. the militia did not turn out as the founding fathers intended, people started to shirk their duty, sometimes pay others to do it for them, or not show up at all. By 1830 the term 'unorganized militia' came about (apart from the well regulated one), and by then there indeed had risen the dichotomy, to a lesser extent, that americans had an individual RKBA aside from the militia, largely brought upon by those who wanted all their so called rights but with no obligation to do much to preserve them.
whistler162
(11,155 posts)and yes it is important if you are making a argument for or against something to get the information you are using correct!
NPolitics1979
(613 posts)For those who argue that taking away individuals right to carry a gun unless the individual purchases a gun licenses, which results in a background check is similar to prohibition of drugs or alchohol or denying people the right to vote are a bunch of fools.
There is limitations to the 1st Amendment- cannot yell "Fire" in the Movie Theater.
I oppose prohibition of drugs and alchohol- Drugs and Alchohol does not result in 20 people getting killed at the same time. A drunk addict would pose less of a threat to society if he was not possess a gun.
Taking away an individual(women or minorities) right to vote is foolish because no one got hurt for expressing views that one may not agree with.
What is wrong with having gun laws that prevents guns being in the hand of criminals or people who have serious mental problems.
RudynJack
(1,044 posts)Check your math.
Marcia Brady
(108 posts)would do nothing to change the culture of violence. I think banning violent video games, movies, and TV shows would have a lot more positive effect.
Response to Marcia Brady (Reply #12)
DisabledDem This message was self-deleted by its author.
Midwestern Democrat
(806 posts)increase in the occurence of these mass killings. There was significantly less gun control 50 years ago and we didn't have this kind of mass murder sadism on a regular basis - the difference is obviously the culture. Before 1968, films were highly censored - there was no "R" rating option - a film was either Approved or Not Approved for general distribution. I'm uneasy about the concept of censorship, but I do suspect that images of graphic violence in our films and especially the violent video games (which permits people to kill virtual images of human beings) have strongly contributed to inspiring many of these murderers.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Which seems to be exactly what you are doing.
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)You are so completely fucking wrong it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sick.
Doodler71
(443 posts)Assault weapons and amazingly they aren't reporting mass shooting nearly every 4 months.
ancianita
(36,095 posts)last century. Come ON. People have to live with the difference between violent thoughts and violent deeds. That's what freedom affords them. If you want to take away violent culture, you also want to take away the freedom to exercise one's imagination -- violent or beautiful -- just because some people decide to treat life as if it's a game. Eliminating the 2nd Amendment would definitely change their behavior, but you don't have to drag down the 1st Amendment with it.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)right away!
trueblue2007
(17,228 posts)Ter
(4,281 posts)And this time the Rebels would win, and rightfully so.
Shrek
(3,981 posts)So repealing the second amendment might have only a limited effect.
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)"Congress, the States and local jurisdictions have the right to pass laws regulating and restricting the possession, sale and carrying of firearms and ammunition for the purposes of public safety."
kwolf68
(7,365 posts)And I don't agree on gun control. She is pretty much for a ban and I (until recently) was not opposed to gun control.
Her statement was that if we want to strictly enforce the constitution to the words written 200+ years ago then the environment should be applicable as well.
Thus, my wife is in favor in the right to bear arms of the EXACT guns protected by the 2nd amendment in 1791, but in none other. Part of me appreciates that view.
Bake
(21,977 posts)A literalist. Hmmm.
Bake
NPolitics1979
(613 posts)Adults with no criminal records or history of mental illness will be allowed to go shopping for firearms but he will have to be issued a firearm permit/license-(take a gun safety course, be subjected to background checks). He must purchase the firearms from a licensed gun dealer from his state- (he must present his firearm permit/license to the gun dealer, the gun dealer conducts a background check) Once the background check is complete - the gun purchaser and only the gun purchaser picks up the guns he bought from the gun dealer.
Kuhbner
(13 posts)ellie
(6,929 posts)Kath1
(4,309 posts)No more of this insanity.
SouthernDonkey
(256 posts)and really ignorant to think you are going to get rid of guns by outlawing them. It's against the law right now for a felon to possess a gun. Does that stop them? Absolutely not. The only people who won't have guns are law abiding people. The 2nd amendment will never be repealed. Your time would be better spent trying to come up with a more workable solution.
I think violent video games and movies probably contribute to these mentally unstable kids going on rampages as much, if not more than anything as well. How can anyone not see a correlation?
Tmloft
(6 posts)I agree, murder, theft, and rape are already felonies. Why would a felon care if he broke another law? In a perfect world guns wouldn't exist. But I can assure everyone, my family will not be a victim without a word in the matter. Why should America outlaw guns? IMO if there's a debate about it err on the side of freedom should apply to everything.
Sedona
(3,769 posts)Tmloft
(6 posts)Not sure the meaning of a 3 inch bullet. anything over .5" has been banned already. Why don't we just outlaw murder?
Sedona
(3,769 posts)SouthernDonkey
(256 posts)But they further warp the minds of someone who isn't stable enough to handle reality to begin with. If you don't realize that you haven't spent any time with someone suffering from a mental illness. Don't get me wrong. I'm for banning assault weapons. I don't have a problem in the world with that. I'm for more stringent gun registrations, and legislations. Limiting clip sizes and possibly other measures. We need some serious debate on this though. But we need to focus on the other causitive factors in this as well.
We need to increase funding for mental health issues, and definitely work to remove the stigma involved with mental illness. There should be help readily available for families who have members suffering from mental illness. This is the kind of things that happen when it is ignored for too long.
Sedona
(3,769 posts)I also know that she wasn't well enough to drive or even handle certain kitchen utensils at times.
Are we going to outlaw cars and knives too? Then take the fucking guns too.
I call bullshit on the video games and Hollywood excuse. The SCIENCE and the ARITHMETIC agree with me.
You NRA types keep blaming everything EXCEPT the GUNS.
Good to know we have NRA folks who agree with Limbaugh and Lieberman here on DU.
SouthernDonkey
(256 posts)Let me set the record straight for you. I'm not one of those "NRA types" anymore than, I imagine, you are one of those "Communist types". Perhaps you are. More power to you. But lets dispense with the accusatory labels please. You don't know me at all!
Also for the record, Im for a total ban on assault rifles. I'm for stronger legislation and requirements for gun ownership. I'm for limiting the amount of ammunition one is able to load into a gun. What I'm against is you "communist types" who want to totally strip me of my constitutional rights. You are as bad as the people you rail against for limiting your freedom, or suppressing other peoples rights to live there life as they see fit.
For your information, I've raised an austistic child to adulthood. He still lives at home with us at age 22, and probably will for the rest of his life so spare me your "voice of experience".
When they start outlawing cars and knives, ask me again about outlawing guns. Until then, I'll hang on to mine. Supporting the rights given to me by the United States Constitution is not a Limbaugh, Lieberman, Reid, Pelosi, Obama, Democrat or Republican thing. It's an AMERICAN thing. So spare me your opinion about what YOU THINK is an approprate DU thing. If I find that DU is not about being a Democrat in America, then I wouldn't choose to be here anyway. But I don't need you telling me that, or how I need to think and I certainly don't need you deciding that for me. Thank you very much.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Right, let's bring down the First Amendment when the Second is being attacked.
Good grief.
ancianita
(36,095 posts)LeftInTX
(25,383 posts)And go back to the Gun Control Act of 1968.
From what I understand that 1986 was when states began all of these Right to Carry laws.
I don't think we need to get rid of the 2nd amendment to eliminate all of these guns.
Right to carry laws 1986-2011
Green: No restrictions
Blue: Shall Issue
Yellow: May Issue
Red: No issue
SouthernDonkey
(256 posts)of the past public executioners actually held concealed carry permits? I fail to see your connection.
edited to add: not trying to be a smartass, as I understand it's really not relevant to your overal point, but a .223 is actualy 57mm or 2.26 inches long.
Sedona
(3,769 posts)but how much less damage TO A SIX YEAR OLD HUMAN BODY do ELEVEN 2.26 inch bullets do than 3 inch bullets?
hack89
(39,171 posts)Concealed carry is a purely state issue - there are no federal issues involved with states licensing concealed carry.
What you are seeing is the results of the first AWB - notice how the big changes happen after 1994? The AWB taught the gun rights movement that guns rights had to be protected at the local level - you saw an explosion of activity at the state legislatures which resulted in many pro-gun laws.
The irony of gun control in America was that their biggest victory sowed the seeds for their ultimate defeat.
budkin
(6,703 posts)ancianita
(36,095 posts)rights, nor anyone else's public protests against injustice. They help no one, and protect no one. Gun owners only want the illusion of power by owning guns. Period.
Conceal and carry advocates? They are cowards. If they were manly men in the way of men of the wild west, even, they'd publicly stand up for what the constitutional amendment they say they believe in, and open carry their weapons. Everyone would be safer for the heads up of seeing an open carry gun toter.
aquart
(69,014 posts)How about just reading it correctly with the words "well-regulated" included?
totodeinhere
(13,058 posts)If you are going to use that as a reason to repeal the Second Amendment you may as well repeal the entire constitution.