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Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:14 PM

I hope we agree that Webb is running to the center, Sanders to the left, and Clinton between those 2

I hope we also agree that even the most centrist in the field is considerably more progressive than even the most centrist Republican candidate (I don't see any Lieberman candidates in our field or any Huntsman candidates running in the Republican field with the goal of reviving the flat-lined moderate wing of that dying party).

I am trying to get a grasp on the general perception of where other Democrats would rank the following candidates from most progressive to most moderate:

1. Sanders
2. O'Malley
3. Chafee
4. Clinton
5. Biden
6. Webb

Thank you for your help.

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Reply I hope we agree that Webb is running to the center, Sanders to the left, and Clinton between those 2 (Original post)
Attorney in Texas Aug 2015 OP
elleng Aug 2015 #1
Comrade Grumpy Aug 2015 #2
Attorney in Texas Aug 2015 #3
elleng Aug 2015 #4
Attorney in Texas Aug 2015 #11
Raine1967 Aug 2015 #33
yurbud Aug 2015 #10
PowerToThePeople Aug 2015 #5
yurbud Aug 2015 #7
PowerToThePeople Aug 2015 #8
RichVRichV Aug 2015 #34
yurbud Aug 2015 #42
RichVRichV Aug 2015 #44
yurbud Aug 2015 #6
Attorney in Texas Aug 2015 #12
Raine1967 Aug 2015 #35
CharlotteVale Aug 2015 #9
Attorney in Texas Aug 2015 #13
CharlotteVale Aug 2015 #14
Attorney in Texas Aug 2015 #15
CharlotteVale Aug 2015 #16
Attorney in Texas Aug 2015 #17
restorefreedom Aug 2015 #18
DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2015 #19
NRaleighLiberal Aug 2015 #20
DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2015 #21
Raine1967 Aug 2015 #36
seabeyond Aug 2015 #30
NV Whino Aug 2015 #22
rurallib Aug 2015 #23
Attorney in Texas Aug 2015 #25
NYCButterfinger Aug 2015 #24
still_one Aug 2015 #28
restorefreedom Aug 2015 #43
still_one Aug 2015 #45
restorefreedom Aug 2015 #46
still_one Aug 2015 #47
restorefreedom Aug 2015 #48
CentralMass Aug 2015 #26
still_one Aug 2015 #27
TexasTowelie Aug 2015 #29
Skwmom Aug 2015 #31
Historic NY Aug 2015 #32
emsimon33 Aug 2015 #37
Juicy_Bellows Aug 2015 #38
Sancho Aug 2015 #39
Bluenorthwest Aug 2015 #40
Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #41

Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:17 PM

1. Looks correct to me.

Thanks, TX.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:18 PM

2. I think that's too simplistic. Pick your axis (axes)

 

Criminal justice policy?

Foreign policy?

Reproductive rights?

Racism in America?

Economic policy?

Et cetera. Gee, I think you'd have to define which issues to include, define the "center" and "left" positions on each one, assign points accordingly, and add up the totals. That would be interesting.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #2)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:27 PM

3. The vagueness is not unintentional. Someone who prioritizes foreign policy might fairly respond by

ranking the candidates as they line up on that issue which is most important to him or her.

I'm curious how Democrats generally perceive O'Malley in relation to Chafee or Biden in relation to Clinton or O'Malley in relation to Sanders or Biden in relation to Webb, etc.

I am more interested in a gut reaction than an essay (although an essay would also be informative).

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #3)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:31 PM

4. I'm pleased where you placed O'Malley;

as I said, looks correct. He IS progressive, thoroughly.

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Response to elleng (Reply #4)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:40 PM

11. One question I am seeking some input about is whether O'Malley and Chafee supporters

rank their preferred candidate as more progressive than other Democrats rank those candidates (for example, do Chafee supporters think Chafee is more progressive than O'Malley or do they think he is more moderate than Clinton and is their perception part of why the support him or do they support him primarily for other reasons besides where they perceive him on the ideological scale).

I'm also curious whether people see Biden as significantly different in ideology than Clinton or do they seem them as ranked close to one another.

Also, I assume there is a consensus that Webb is the most centrist candidate but I'm curious whether Webb supporters agree with that assessment (frankly, I don't hear much from Webb supporters on DU).

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #11)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 12:21 AM

33. There are very few if any supporters of his on DU.

Same goes for Webb. I will say this, Chafee at the very least has a group.

Speaking for myself, Webb is not centrist. He is a a moderate Republican who changed parties — possibly in order to run against George Allen.

At the time (and things are shifting here in Virginia) it was as good as we could get in this commonwealth.

Regarding Biden and Clinton, I am not sure how to answer your question.

I do believe that policy matters as much as personality when it comes to electing people for office. This is human nature, IMO.

I believe O'Malley is very progressive, I also believe that he has put forward comprehensive ways to make his ideas happen. Read his white papers on criminal justice and wall street reform. They are more detailed than anyone else I have seen thus far.

I appreciate details.

I know that the next thing I am going to say is going to piss people off, but I truly don't believe that being the most angry person on the campaign trail makes them the most progressive. I disagree with Senator Sanders on a few of his topics. For example, while I deeply agree that the billionaire class is a really big problem, that isn't the be all and end all of todays problems.

There will always be rich people. There will always be poor people. There hopefully will still be a middle class that will take in/allow (for lack of better phrasing) people to no longer be in poverty.

Going after the billionaire class is fine, but I really want to see the middle class strengthened once again. I want to see a path for it to thrive and grow again, and that is why I support O'Malley. He is inclusive.









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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #2)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:39 PM

10. if we don't fix economic and foreign policy, what we do on the others won't matter

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:34 PM

5. I think O'Malley is a good guy

 

and probably about as far left as an "in-the-fold" Democrat can be at this time. The problem is that all the establishment has moved too far right for me. We desperately need change that will not come from them.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #5)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:36 PM

7. Even for Bernie, it will be tough to shift course on a profoundly corrupt & dangerous foreign policy

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Response to yurbud (Reply #7)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:37 PM

8. I agree. n/t

 

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Response to yurbud (Reply #7)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 12:27 AM

34. Thankfully foreign policy is one area that's under direct control of the executive branch.

Yes there are many people that can exert influence on the president about war, especially military advisers. And yes congress can vote to go to war. But ultimately the decision whether or not to launch an attack on another country resides in the hands of the president. He can simply say no (I know, easier said then done in today's environment).

A president can't decide to attack another country without congress, but they can most definitely decide not to without them. And they can choose to ignore any authorizations for war by simply doing nothing.


Likewise, congress may have to ratify treaties, but the ability to negotiate and set the tone with other countries falls solely on the president and his appointed cabinet and diplomats. The president can choose peace over war without any interference from the other branches.

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Response to RichVRichV (Reply #34)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 11:43 AM

42. events and perception of events can be managed to force his hand or make the public clamor for

it so much, the executive either goes along with it or is chased out of office (or carried out feet first).

And as we saw in the Bush presidency and to some degree now, if the rich want something, checks and balances cease to exist.

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Response to yurbud (Reply #42)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 02:31 PM

44. That's where the bully pulpit comes in.

The president and their administration can use their voices to influence public opinion.

Let's take ISIS for example. They can lay down a time line showing how our military intervention in Iraq and our involvement with Syria has directly led to the creation of ISIS. They can show how were cutting off funds to ISIS by going after the people dealing with them. They can show how we're supporting our allies while letting those directly affected by the problem deal with it. And if there's ever a direct need for engaging ISIS it will be done through an international coalition, not by us alone.

Let's take Iran for example. There a lot of Rhetoric going around that if these talks fall through we'll be forced to attack. Why? They can easily explain that if the talks fail then all sanctions that have crippled Iran go back in force with more if necessary. They can point out that Iran has not attacked anyone in hundreds of years. And they can make clear that if Iran ever attacks Israel or another ally then we will come to the defense of our allies as expected. However we won't be another countries proxy. Not Israel's or anyone else's.




And on a personal level, just once I'd like one person in government to admit how hypocritical it is to demand others not have nukes while we have the largest stock pile in the world and no desire to shrink it.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:34 PM

6. I would say from most progressive to most corporate

Sanders is most progressive

O'Malley is second

Clinton, Biden, and Webb are all roughly equally corporate tools.

I don't know enough about Chafee to say.

Clinton, Biden, and Webb ALL running is a bit redundant.

I will vote the way I did in the primaries: the most progressive of what's left.

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Response to yurbud (Reply #6)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:48 PM

12. Personally, I vote for the most liberal candidate in the primary and happily (wih no regrets) vote

for the Democratic nominee in the general election (although having Lieberman on the ticket in 2000 tested my loyalty to this practice).

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #12)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 12:27 AM

35. I was a Bradley supporter. I would have been fine with Gore and was…

when he picked Lieberman I was gobsmacked.

That was just a really bad move. I will never understand that choice. I disagreed but understood (still thought it was a bad decision and he seriously underestimated the Dem Party) with his running away from Clinton but choosing Lieberman… I am still shaking my head.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:38 PM

9. I don't consider anyone who wants to privatize

Social Security (Chafee) or who defends the Confederate flag (Webb) as "progressive" and no, I wouldn't vote for anyone who holds those positions.

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Response to CharlotteVale (Reply #9)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:50 PM

13. I don't either but they're both far to the left of Pataki or Kasich or Christie (the least rightwing

candidates in the dismal Republican field)

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #13)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:52 PM

14. Not in my book they aren't. They are ALL completely

unacceptable to me.

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Response to CharlotteVale (Reply #9)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:53 PM

15. Do your feelings about Chafee's social security proposal cause you to rank him 2nd most moderate?

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #15)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:56 PM

16. Moderate Republican, maybe.

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Response to CharlotteVale (Reply #16)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 06:58 PM

17. Fair enough

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 07:04 PM

18. i would put webb to the right of all of them

1 sanders
1.2 omalley
2 chafee
3 biden/clinton tie
4 webb

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 07:10 PM

19. In the real world...

1 Sanders
2 a Clinton
2 b O'Malley
2 c Biden
3 Chafee
4 Webb

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #19)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 07:12 PM

20. looks about right to me. (or left!)

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #20)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 07:19 PM

21. I suspect on economics HRC would be to Chaffe's left and on foreign policy to his right.

Ditto for Biden and O'Malley...

Lincoln Chaffe's economics strike me as decidedly New England Republican.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #21)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 12:28 AM

36. very few of those left, btw.

good observation, sir.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #19)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 11:16 PM

30. even at that some of sanders is more right of clinton and some of clinton more right of sanders

 

and mostly they are aligned. sanders edges clinton out on most progressive, but all said and done, barely.

it is just that i think people are putting more importance on sanders rhetoric like no war, though he has voted for military action and his fight with wallstreet, as more important in the scale of progressive than the areas clinton is more progressive.

omalley has a little more conservative in him, again, reading his proposals and plans and listening to him, no more so than the others. just a shade more over all conservative in his progressive and liberal self.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 07:54 PM

22. If I were to place the dividing line between left (progressive/liberal) and right/corporate,

I would place that line about 3/4 through the left side of O'Malley's name with Bernie's name firmly to the left. Everybody else is firmly to the right.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 08:16 PM

23. If Webb is running to the center, then the center is much further right

than I would like.

I actually think much of America is left of Webb now.

The whole damned republican party (tea baggers? reactionaries, maybe?) are off the rails to the right.

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Response to rurallib (Reply #23)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 10:23 PM

25. if you line up the 6 Democrats included in most polls and the 17 Republicans, Webb is 6th of 23. I'm

referring to everyone right of Clinton and left of all the Republicans as "centrist."

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 08:21 PM

24. I like Webb. I'm centrist on some issues. But I don't like his Confederate beliefs.

 

If Webb is the nominee, and that's a big if, I can see myself voting for him. If Webb is the 2016 Democratic presidential nominee, he will pick a running mate like him. He may most likely pick former Sen. Bob Kerrey (D-Neb.) as his running mate.

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Response to NYCButterfinger (Reply #24)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 11:07 PM

28. He is against the Iran deal also, and I have a problem with that

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Response to still_one (Reply #28)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 11:50 AM

43. yeah that sucks imo

i am tring to find reasons to like webb in case he were the nom. but he 's not giving me much to work with

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Response to restorefreedom (Reply #43)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 04:59 PM

45. In all fairness I think it will be between Hillary and Bernie. Maybe O'Malley might gain some

traction after the first debate, but I suspect Webb and Chaffee won't be in the top 3

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Response to still_one (Reply #45)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 05:07 PM

46. yeah i think you're right..webb and chafee

are not likely to get much more interest. i would like to see more of om though.

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Response to restorefreedom (Reply #46)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 05:10 PM

47. I agree it is good to be presented with different perspectives, and it also gives all candidates an

opportunity to defend their views on the issues

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Response to still_one (Reply #47)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 07:04 PM

48. i think it helps them all grow. nt

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 10:27 PM

26. I think that you are right , just dont ask Hillary to commit to anything on paper ;-)

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 11:06 PM

27. well since Webb is against the Iran deal, and has no problem with the confederate flag, I am not

sure if those are moderate positions.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 11:12 PM

29. I hope that we have some good left side blockers

or our team won't get any decent yardage.

Oops, wrong forum--I thought I was in the Sports Group.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 11:23 PM

31. Sanders is running for the people. the others, well.....

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sat Aug 15, 2015, 11:58 PM

32. Did he even showup in Iowa yet???

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 02:51 AM

37. Webb was senator for only one term

He is very much for the middle class and dislikes lobbyists and that running for public office beholdens a person to corporate masters. Both Clinton and Biden are Third Way Democrats who owe allegiance to corporate interests. RI think that you have a narrow definition of progressive and moderate. Bernie is certainly the most progressive; however, I am not sure that Webb is the most moderate--depends on your definition.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 04:15 AM

38. I'd go this way.

1. Sanders

















Everyone else running for the Democratic nod.























Republicans.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 07:03 AM

39. The Democratic candidates are more similar on "real policy" than most people acknowledge...

they obviously differ in personality, but if you had them vote on real legislation or describe the "big issue" goals of Democrats, they would agree 90% of the time. If anything, Bernie's socialist roots do stand out, but he's a bit nuanced on some issues where he backs off the pure "socialist" position and moves to the center.

Certainly, the Democrats are much more homogeneous than the GOP candidates on major issues. The repubs have major splits on serious questions.

Even here on DU, enthusiastic supporters argue desperately over minor or irrelevant topics that will not likely be important or realistically get through Congress. More often, personal and character attacks are the norm.

The value differences are in the details, but not in the overall direction.

OTOH, there are certainly differences in experience that would be useful to being a President.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 09:23 AM

40. Sanders, O'Malley, Clinton, Biden, Chafee, Webb.

 

Chafee has favored privatizing Social Security and he's a huge Free Trade advocate. If DU is concerned with things like TPP, note that Chafee votes for all of them, while Clinton only votes for some trade deals. In the Senate as a Republican Chafee voted for CAFTA, while Hillary was among the Democratic no votes.
Chafee voted against the IWR, but he also voted for George HW Bush who started a war in Iraq then voted for George W Bush who started another one. Chafee had voted for Bushes, war machines and Republican foreign policy for decades. Without the Bushes and their policies that IWR would not even have been on the table. So his no vote, it's not that much.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 16, 2015, 09:39 AM

41. Clinton is Right, Left and Center of all of them.

 



We need to see if she actually takes some firm positions during the debates. Then we can decide where she is on the political spectrum.



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