I prefer Hillary over Bernie on Guns. I prefer Bernie over Hillary for President

[Tom Rinaldo]

That's because I prefer Bernie over Hillary on most bedrock issues that are important to me. It' really not that complicated. In my book Bernie gets a passing grade on tightening up common sense gun safety laws and Hillary gets a passing grade on caring about the Middle Class. Hillary is clearly stronger on gun safety issues but Bernie still backs the improvements that are most likely to make it through any Congress in the foreseeable near term future. Bernie knocks it out of the park however for me on economic issues while Hillary merely hits a single. I trust Bernie more on foreign policy also. Both would be fine on social issues with just minor variations separating them.

Bottom line - Bernie has my strong support in the primaries. And either Bernie or Hillary or "Uncle Joe" for that matter would have my strong support over any Republican running for President. To me it is that simple.

[Schema Thing]

1. same

[djean111]

2. "It's really not that complicated." - I think it is, or must be, totally incomprehensible to some,

judging from the torrent of OPs on the subject of Bernie and guns.

The hilarious thing is that Bernie's supporters have been accused of being "purists" because we do not like a LOT of Hillary's policies - little things like war and fracking and TPP, etc. - but evidently they have trouble with the actual application of the term. The term is meant, by them, to be a pejorative, not something that actually describes why they can post GUNZ OPs all day long and still not sway a Bernie supporter. No, Bernie's supporters are not purists. Too bad, eh?

[Tom Rinaldo]

3. There is no such thing as a "purist" candidate in national politics

Unless maybe you are running yourself and believe in 100% of the positions you have taken - which is unlikely because even then you would probably be forced to make at least minor compromises on behalf of important supporters (be they major donors or large passionate groups of voters).

You make a good point and observation. Actually I am amazed that there is an arguably quite viable candidate for President (Bernie) who I so strongly agree with on so many things. Come November whoever the Democrats are running will seem a whole lot more compatible with my views than whoever the Republicans run.

[artislife]

4. I doubt there is little difference on gun policy

between them and O'Malley, too.

I do think two are posturing for the election, however.

[DanTex]

5. Good post, and a valid opinion.

The thing is, on economic issues, Hillary and Bernie also agree on most things that will make it through congress in the forseeable future. Single payer and free college and so on are going nowhere.

The way I see it is, given congress being what it is, the difference in terms of actual policy that gets through between any of the leading Dems is minimal. I will happily support any of them in the general. In the primary, I support Hillary because I think she is the best positioned to win the general.

[Tom Rinaldo]

6. I respect this position also

One of the main reasons why I support Bernie however is because he is the national politician best able to frame the debate on economic issues in a manner that is of critical importance to me. In that way IMO he is most likely to move the needle of public opinion in the direction needed in order to change what it is possible to politically achieve.

As to who would be best positioned to win the general election, in a more conventional election cycle I might easily agree with you. This may not be that however. We will know a lot more on that front after the Democratic Presidential debates begin and the public's reaction to them starts becoming better known - and not just the reaction of Democrats. There are some indications that Bernie has the potential for some unusual cross over appeal. Whether or not that is sizable however is yet to be seen.

[DanTex]

7. That's true, he is the best at framing the economic debate.

And he's doing a great service simply by talking about things like single payer and free college, and reaching large audiences with them. For a long time these ideas were almost unspeakable in the mainstream.

Part of this comes down to level of cynicism. I am pretty cynical when it comes to American politics. If I was less cynical, maybe I'd more easily believe that the nation would elect Bernie, that he can compete without big donors and SuperPACs, that he'll be able to transform the electorate in ways that would force congress to work with him, etc. I just don't see it though.

[Tom Rinaldo]

8. By that same token...

Though I was among those hoping that Bernie would run, because of the voice he brings to the national debate if nothing else, I didn't see him doing anywhere remotely this well before he even got onto a debate stage. So one could say that I have officially suspended disbelief at this point. He really may catch fire, even more so than he already has. And even if Bernie doesn't make it through, the more support he gets the more his message will be heard.

[Fumesucker]

9. At this point in 2015 I'm more inclined to think Bernie has a chance than I was Obama in 2007

Seriously, a black man with the middle name "Hussein" so shortly after 9/11?

Obama has broken the Presidential mold so thoroughly I don't think anyone can predict if or how it will go back together.

[Tom Rinaldo]

12. Very true. How quickly we forget

And prior to Obama running it was almost written in stone that a major party candidate for President had to have a significant political resume - not just some time in a state senate followed by two years in the U.S. Senate. That conventional wisdom sure is dead and buried now.

[Fumesucker]

14. I was like Barack Hussein O'What?

As far as I was concerned Obama materialized from thin air in 2007, I may have heard of him but I certainly didn't remember.

I think people are far more willing to look beyond the surface of a candidate than they were pre-Obama.

[Armstead]

11. Since you're in a reasonable mood today Dan.....

Regarding the cynicsm.

Back in the late 1970's many in the the GOP were cynical about the chances of getting a "true conservative" in the WH, and making any actual changes in government by defeating the "entrenched liberal establishment."

The cynics were wrong, and the GOP succeeded in pushing the pendulum far to the right.

This is a possibility to actually do a similar push of the pendulum in the opposite diretion.

[Tom Rinaldo]

13. I remember lots of Democrats being ecstatic when Reagan got the GOP nomination

They were certain he was so extreme that Carter would easily beat him. It then took 12 years for Democrats to regain the White House.

[DanTex]

15. I'm always in a reasonable mood!

I agree that cynics are sometimes wrong. But not usually. Also, Reagan was before my time, so I don't know about him and the 1980 election viscerally, only from reading.

I'm not sure if there's any fact-based or scientific-ish way of resolving this. Basically, we all look at the world, take into account different observations, and then conclude one way or the other about what's possible, what's likely, and what's not.

Here are a few reasons why I believe what I believe. First, I think it will be difficult to compete in the CU era without large amounts of money, including SuperPAC money. I don't believe that enthusiasm will be able to overcome that. Second, I don't think that the word "socialism" has lost its sting, at least not all of it. It's true that among younger people it doesn't carry much of a negative connotation, but most voters are not Millenials. Also, more generally, the whole "tax and spend" think will be difficult to shirk when people start to total the amount that everything Bernie wants will cost. And I also don't think that Bernie has the charisma to pull the whole thing off. So in the final analysis, when I weigh the potential added benefits to a Bernie presidency versus a Hillary presidency, which as I've explained, I don't think are very large, against what I feel is a significantly greater risk of the GOP with Bernie as candidate, I come to the conclusion that Hillary is the better choice.

But, again, a lot of it is based on judgments that are difficult to quantify.

The one thing in this whole debate that I had hoped everyone could agree on is that any Dem, including Hillary, is far, far, preferable to any Republican. Regardless of the electability issues, or concerns about any of the individual candidates, this would seem like a slam dunk for anyone with any kind of progressive beliefs. But it appears that I was wrong about that -- there are a substantial number of people here who, faced with the choice between Hillary and the GOP, have professed the intention to abstain. This I truly do not understand, and I don't think it's defensible, even taking into account differences of opinion and judgment.

[Tom Rinaldo]

16. I strongly agree with that final point

As to other points made in this thoughtful post, the future doesn't always arrive on the expected schedule, but it arrives. I remember the Wall Street dot.com bust in 1998 after investors got way ahead in placing a value on the digital revolution. But that digital revolution is finally mainstream and entrenched now. For the last dozen years people have been claiming that the online world would transform politics and level off the playing field where big money and major media had dominated. Year after year those claims were premature at best, but this may be the election cycle when that future actually meets the present.

I also remember a coarse anecdote I read from 2008 about how people with an entrenched "bias" respond when their economic self interests begin to break through. The 2008 crash had started and a volunteer for Obama door knocked at a rural "red neck" home and started making the pitch for Obama when an older woman there responded "Don't worry, I'm voting for the nigger".

"Socialist" may still be a highly charged word for some, but the feeling of getting screwed may over ride that for many in the current political and economic climate

[Armstead]

10. As usual, terrific post