Bernie has already Won

[FreakinDJ]

Lets be honest - do you think any of the candidates would be talking about "Income inequality" if Bernie was not in the race bringing the issue front and center to the American public

or Free College tuition

or Paid maternity leave

These were issues Democratic candidates dared not mention in fear of the GOP backlash yet they are issues Bernie has held dear to his heart to bring to the American people for decades.

Without Bernie in the race all we would be hearing about is finding "Middle Ground" with a bunch of Tea Farty fanatics

[EdwardBernays]

1. welll...

It's all just that, talk, until someone does something about it... people have been talking about gun violence for decades and well... you know the story...

[ejbr]

11. Exactly n/t

[FreakinDJ]

25. Ya middle ground is so much better to campaign on

[merrily]

28. +1

[Ikonoklast]

29. Except that gun violence has been *decreasing* for decades now.

It does work, people aren't just talking, if the various agencies involved get off their dead bureaucratic asses and enforce the laws already in place, even more guns would get out of the hands of criminals.

But that takes actual police work, and does not generate any revenue for the police departments. Real police work costs them money, way easier to bust a kid for smoking a joint and ruining his life.

Using gun violence as a boogey man, even as gun use is now and has been dropping for decades does get police departments all sorts of taxpayer money and military goodies though.

Makes one wonder what their agenda really is here.

[EdwardBernays]

33. yes and no

while it HAS been decreasing for decades it's still ANYWHERE NEAR as low as anywhere else worth talking about.

The US gun violence rate and murder rate are ridiculously high, so a reduction in something absurdly large is hardly proof of much.

Put it another way, in the 90s our murder rate was the same as Zimbabwe and Haiti have currently... now it's on average 4x higher than in any european country... is it BETTER? Yes... is it anything to brag about? Well.. I guess it depends if having the same murder rate as Niger is something you find acceptable...

[NCTraveler]

2. Paid Maternity Leave.

Obama brought it up in his SOTU and many Democrats have been fighting for it for a while. Including a bill introduced this year, not by Sanders. Very strange it is all Sanders when Hillary was talking about it before he launched his campaign.

[Major Hogwash]

4. Hillary has no affect on Washington or what bills are introduced.

She isn't in Congress, so most of her talk is just that, talk.

On top of that, it doesn't matter that Obama brought it up in his SOTU because he isn't actively pushing for it.
Even if he did, the Democrats in Congress are running in 250 different directions trying to keep their fucking seats in Congress!
They are no longer taking their cues from the President because he is a lame duck President who can't get re-elected.

[NCTraveler]

7. Lol.

Sanders is in the Senate and it wasn't his bill. Your words are empty. As a woman, I know who is fighting for me. You might want to spend some time researching.

[retrowire]

12. Are you implying

that Bernie isn't fighting for women?

[NCTraveler]

16. I never implied that in any way.

Hence your need to ask.

[retrowire]

51. well

you know who is fighting for women.

why not name them all?

[NCTraveler]

52. You make an incorrect statement trying to put words in my mouth.

Then ask me to do things. This is strange.

[retrowire]

53. just reading between the lines

"I don't like bernie, I know who's fighting for women's rights."

meh.

[NCTraveler]

54. Who are you quoting? nt.

[NCTraveler]

55. Link to your quote? nt.

[retrowire]

59. you dont understand the phrase

"between the lines"?

[NCTraveler]

60. I understand quotation marks and how you dishonestly use them.

I now understand that "reading between the lines" isn't your thing either. Says a lot that you would completely fabricate a quote.
I am laughing my ass off at the fact you truly just made up a quote and attributed it to me. This is great stuff.

[retrowire]

69. great we're laughing together then. :)

[closeupready]

56. Sounded to me like that is exactly what you were implying.

In more ways than one.

[NCTraveler]

58. You are wrong.

Clearly. As is the other poster. It is why they completely fabricated a post I supposedly made. It is the only way to come to the conclusion you are. Please look at the one hundred percent fabricated quote the poster making the claim attributed to me. A complete lie. That is what is necessary for them to hold the same thought you are.

What was implied is that I am smart enough in this area to know when propaganda is being shoved my way. What you are stating I am implying is simply strange. Specially considering I have stated as recently as today that Sanders is excellent on womens issues. Back off the fight a little and the written word will become more clear to you.

[A Simple Game]

14. I may not be a woman but as a parent and grandparent I will not vote for someone that

refused to vote to ban cluster bombs all the time knowing that they mutilate and kill women and children collecting scrap metal even years after being dropped from our bombers.

Do you want to discuss depleted uranium munitions and their affect on women and children when they gather them for scrap metal? How about our surgical drone strikes that kill innocent people 90% of the time? Think Hillary will stop any of that?

"We came, we saw, we killed him" is that really the kind of person you want to vote for?

No more war mongers for President.

[Cali_Democrat]

15. Will you vote for someone who supports keeping troops in Afghanistan

and also supports the continuation of the drone wars?

[FrodosPet]

35. People are mistaking Sen Sanders for a pro-Palestinian pacifist

Just like in 2008 with President Obama, some people see what they want to see. and not what is really there.

[NCTraveler]

18. I appreciate your input...

Though it has nothing to do with the deceptive op. You are currently supporting someone who has repeatedly voted to fund foreign armies. Many of whom love what you claim to detest right here.

[beam me up scottie]

17. I'm a woman and Bernie has always fought for me.

To imply he's only doing so now because of Hillary is disingenuous at best.

[NCTraveler]

19. I did not imply that he doesn't.

I think he is excellent on women's rights. Virtually ineffective but his thoughts and words are solid. Doesn't change the deception and dishonest words in the op.

[BlueJazz]

22. Why do you hate women?

[beam me up scottie]

66. Yes you did:

Very strange it is all Sanders when Hillary was talking about it before he launched his campaign.

You implied that he didn't care about the issue until your candidate brought it up.

The fact that you're trying to deny it after you were called out proves that you were being disingenuous.

And you just made another snide implication about his record and his being "virtually ineffective".

I'm just glad Hillary's support for a ban on late term abortions was "ineffective" and thankful that Bernie has always been 100% pro-choice. Unfortunately her support for DOMA was very effective.

Bernie's always had our backs, Hillary - not so much.

[Plucketeer]

92. Now ya got me wondering

"As a woman, I know who is fighting for me." Is it a secret or could you share? You've done alot of footwork to avoid saying it flat out. I'm not a woman, but I really, genuinely, seriously want them to be treated fairly and on as equal a footing as is possible. Your insights might sway my thinking if they bear more merit than mine.

[NCTraveler]

94. I don't mean to deflect in any way.

When you say "saying it flat out," what are you referencing. I'll add some thoughts and I think it might answer it. Not sure though. Are you thinking I am beating around the bush not say Sanders isn't strong for women's rights. I wouldn't say that because I don't believe it to be true.

The only other option I can kind of see is my woman comment and am I one to believe men can't have as strong of a voice in this area. While I do believe I might have better understanding, our greatest allies and often leaders are men. So many more educated than I. I probably shouldn't have made that comment. Still not that concerned about it considering the manner the topic was being discussed.

[Plucketeer]

96. I'm not all that deep

It was the ->who<- in "who's fighting for me" that I was trying to pull out. I thought specific individuals were the point of the back 'n forth. I guess that was an generalization as opposed to an identification. That's cool.

I'm hoping my favorite in the race wins. And in no small part because I'm certain they'll go out of their way to see that women are treated fairly in any way that they aren't. It sure to hell is time that women had equal participation in the governmental workings of our country. That sort of equality would make enormous changes, I think - and for the better. I doubt I'll live to see that day, but I do think it's inevitable - provided this grand experiment survives long enough.

[rhett o rick]

62. Not sure why you are pointing out that it wasn't his bill. What are you trying to imply.

Not every Senator gets to introduce every bill. HRC may work for women but her first priority is to help Goldman-Sachs and her billionaire friends that don't donate without expecting a huge return. And Goldman-Sachs doesn't care at all about women's issues. Profits are number one. Sen Sanders, on the other hand, is not obliged to Goldman-Sachs and the big money. He is now and has always worked hard for the 99%.

There are two sides to this class war. You do recognize the class war? HRC is a member of the 1% thanks to her friends in the 1%. Her campaign is funded by the 1%. She is on the wrong side of this class war.

[NCTraveler]

63. Deflection followed by a non-sequitur. Bravo. nt.

[rhett o rick]

64. Once again, apparently lost for a response. nm

[Jester Messiah]

90. Lol, s/he rolled a 10 but needed a 15.

Sorry, nerd humor.

[rhett o rick]

95. I see her post as classic projection. I directly responded to her insinuation. nm

[Lordquinton]

108. So, just to set the record straight

Who, "as a woman" is fighting for you?

[Chan790]

50. "Democrats in Congress are running in 250 different directions"

which is proof that we haven't learned the lessons of our defeats. When you stumble across a winning agenda like the Sanders agenda is resonating with Americans...you make promises to fall-in and effect that agenda. That is the lesson we failed to take away from the 1990s and Gingrich with the "Contract for America."

Even if it was really the contract to fuck America over, that's besides the point. The saw an opportunity, they fell in-line on message and they promised to effect that "contract" if elected. As a result, they were elected. It wasn't magic or voodoo...they offered what large swaths of the public wanted and they delivered it when given the opportunity.

Americans want the progressive ideas that are coming out of this primary. It's time to promise to deliver if given the reins. It's time for a "Promise to All Americans" where Democrats fall-in to rally behind a compelling and cohesive progressive agenda that resonates with America.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

103. Most of what Hillary said while IN Congress was just talk.

Bernie is the authentic progressive leader that is showing us the way forward. Go Bernie Go!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[enid602]

87. bs

Also, Obama has tried half a dozen times to have the Bush era tax decrease for the wealthy rolled back, and has worked tirelessly to increase capital gains taxes. The Tea Party thwarted him every step of the way. Republican legislators are sworn to vote against Obama. The Bernie people tell us BS will have no such problems, due to his 'long coattails.' I've never seen a list of congressional candidates that are running on his platform, however.

[tecelote]

3. Bernie is the best thing to happen to American politics in a long time.

--- text version ---

"I am going to do my best to try to create a country in which children are not living in poverty, in which kids can go to college, in which old people have health care. Will I succeed? I can't guarantee you that, but I can tell you that from a human point of view it is better to show up than to give up."

- Bernie Sanders

[peacebird]

5. Love that meme, just stole it & tweeted it!

Thank you!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

104. Makes one proud to be an American. Go Bernie!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

86. Love the guy. Don't you just want to give him a hug?

[Cali_Democrat]

6. Obama mentioned paid leave in the SOTU speech and he also

used his executive authority to mandate it for federal workers/contractors:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/01/14/obama-to-propose-seven-days-paid-sick-leave-for-workers/

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/07/politics/obama-mandatory-sick-leave/

The article also mentioned that he pushed Congress to implement the Healthy Families Act.

Also, Obama has called for tuition-free community college much like Sanders:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/Obama-trying-to-boost-free-community-college-plan-6492631.php

The notion that Dems dared not mention these issues is false.

[NCTraveler]

9. They made it clear in their reply to me.

Obamas actions are insignificant. They just can't believe what they are typing. I refuse to believe they are serious. It's something else.

[Cali_Democrat]

10. Like you mentioned upthread...

Paid maternity leave is something Dems in Congress and President Obama have been fighting for....for a while now. There's a bill in Congress and Sanders wasn't even the one who sponsored it.

Also, tution-free community/public college is something Obama/Dems have been talking about for a while now.

Suddenly Bernie proposes these things and they swoon.

I don't know what to tell you.

[NCTraveler]

13. It's something else.

I think this is the first time they have been involved in the process. It's the only way one can come to the conclusion that they aren't spreading outright falsehoods. They simply have never cared about any of this before. While misguided, it's at least nice that they are acting like they care today. I just doubt the same people will still care tomorrow considering how they present what they believe to be true here.

[Fawke Em]

34. Wrong.

I've been involved before.

But I'm so tired of establishment corporate war hawks that I'm just, well, tired.

Couldn't pay me to vote for her.

I'll vote Dem down-ticket, but voting for her is signing my son's own death warrant. Won't do it.

[NCTraveler]

36. None of which addresses my point...

About the blatant falsehoods in the op.

[randys1]

76. Then those of us who want to prevent dead Women in back alley abortions will work that

much harder to get someone to vote in your place, if Hillary is the nominee.

It is a matter of life and death.

[AgingAmerican]

45. Bizarre, baseless 'conclusion'

Where do you folks get this nonsense?

[NCTraveler]

46. You will have to ask the op? nt.

[AgingAmerican]

47. When Bernie started doing these things

Hillary was still a 'Goldwater Girl'.

[NCTraveler]

48. That's right. grrrrrr. nt.

[magical thyme]

8. talk is cheap.

[cprise]

83. That is my response, too.

Clinton likes to pull the rug out from underneath the poor, then give them little "humanitarian causes" as a consolation prize.

She urged Bill Clinton to end welfare. It was all downhill from there.

[Walk away]

93. Wow! This place is really somthing!

[deutsey]

20. Just as Occupy did, Bernie at the very least

has broken through the false narrative that the Establishment props up as reality and has tapped what many people who are shut out of that narrative really feel.

[FreakinDJ]

42. +1000

[Helen Borg]

21. But we need more than talking.

Last edited Tue Oct 20, 2015, 09:05 AM - Edit history (1)

Do you really think that Hillary will actually do anything about this, if she wins?

[djean111]

24. No, I don't think will do anything about this. Campaign blather. n/t

[FreakinDJ]

43. She'll be swamped by GOP rumor mill

[Dr Hobbitstein]

23. Hillary Clinton in 2007.

She speaks about income inequality.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/21/clinton.trans.economy/


In other words, she's been addressing this for some time.

[Armstead]

31. She talks about symptoms buit nut real causes

"Tweak a few things,ask nicely and those Corporate Empires will behave themselves, and eventually maybe pay your a little more."

[stevenleser]

68. But the Bernie folks say this crap with such confidence in their assertions!

[DanTex]

26. I agree. Now we just need to consolidate that victory by putting Hillary in the White House.

[merrily]

27. Sanders has already won.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12778005 (arcane1's thread) I have always thought that.

I will sound like a broken record, but Bernie is the ONLY one talking about wealth inequality. I can't think of much that the federal government can do about income inequality, other than raising the minimum wage. However, it can do a LOT about wealth inequality.

[FreakinDJ]

44. Yet now it was the main topic of the first debate

Yes he has changed the political discussion

[Eric J in MN]

72. What should the federal gov't do about wealth inequality? NT

NT

[Vincardog]

73. The Federal governments' TRADE TAX and (lack of) ENERGY policies create inequality.

They are the causes of the inequality we suffer.

[merrily]

88. Thanks for the question.

Not really on topic for this thread. However, I will say this: The government has always been creative about making sure wealth got to the top and stayed there. I am sure it can be just as creative and clever about making sure at least some of it actually does trickle down. I know that because the government demonstrated that with the New Deal and the Great Society, when the fear of revolution weighed heavily in the minds of the plutocrats.

It's not a question of the what but of the want to.

I'd start by doing all I could to get Sanders elected. At least, he wants to.

[Armstead]

30. We'll end up with the usual Dem v R "Go Team Go" Bullshit in the general

Sorry to sound cynical, but I think if Clinton is the nominee, the Election will revert to the same centraist crapola we;ve had for the last 35 years.

"The only cause of problems are those Republicans."

V chips, school uniforms...blah,blah,blah

[emulatorloo]

78. You forgot vaginal probes.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

105. huh?

[emulatorloo]

109. The more Republicans we get, the more women will be forced to endure vaginal probes

Before receiving an Abortion. Just responding to posters comment about Dem vs Rep rah-rah. He doesn't believe their are differences between Republicans and Democrats. But no Democrat has suggested a women be violated by a vaginal probe. Just one example of many.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

110. oh ok

[emulatorloo]

111. I know, pretty poor writing on my part! Clear as mud lol

Thanks for the post, I really appreciate it.

[mmonk]

32. In many cases, yes. Or I would like to say we.

At least some of the conversation has changed.

[kelliekat44]

37. Well John Edwards talked about it during his campaign and the poor. nt

[Beaverhausen]

81. That is my first thought too

that's why I supported him until...well... you know.

[firebrand80]

38. Income Inequality, yes

*Warning: the following post may not fit into the "hate one candidate, love the other dynamic*

That issue has been gaining momentum for a few years now. As for free college tuition, etc. Bernie brought those issues to the table.

I respect the enthusiasm of Bernie supporters, but I don't think this is the time for Bernie, yet. He's not the right candidate, and the country isn't quite far left enough. I don't say this as a dig at Bernie. For the most part, he's the same candidate as Dennis Kucinich, a candidate that couldn't even get off the ground 10 years ago.

I predict that in 20-30 years from now, we're going to look back and see a bigger picture of the country moving left since 2000: The brief success of Howard Dean and the viability of the 50 State Strategy, leading Obama catching hell for pushing the country as left as he could, a self-described Democratic Socialist in Sanders mounting a credible campaign, which which I think will ultimately culminate in a President with Sanders-like views.

I don't think Sanders is going to be the nominee, but as part of the larger war, I hope he goes as far as possible.

[zipplewrath]

57. Probably Closer to the Truth

I predict that in 20-30 years from now, we're going to look back and see a bigger picture of the country moving left since 2000: The brief success of Howard Dean and the viability of the 50 State Strategy, leading Obama catching hell for pushing the country as left as he could, a self-described Democratic Socialist in Sanders mounting a credible campaign, which which I think will ultimately culminate in a President with Sanders-like views.

I don't exactly agree with this, but I do think that there are "under currents" that proceed major changes and as you suggest we may have seen some of this already. The GOP has wandered into insanity land and the system is awaiting a major shift. I'm not saying it couldn't be a Trump like shift, but it equally could be a shift towards a more progressive system. The millennials are getting screwed six ways from Sunday and are going to be responsive to discussions about college costs, and pensions, and professional work opportunities, not just "jobs". We've had an AA president and are headed towards a female candidate with a serious shot at becoming president. One of the most popular senators is a progressive woman. We have watched LGBT rights on the move, and we have a resurgent civil rights movement in the BLM population. The OWS did put the concept of the 1% into the national discourse.

Basically, we've got a lot of pieces available and are awaiting them being assembled into a major shift.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

84. Like I have said before.

Now is the time for a real progressive populist movement, but the message needs to be clear and not overly complex and it needs to be repeated over and over to drive it home into the minds of the people.

Then Bernie will win.

[randome]

65. Good big-picture view of things. I hope you're right.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]

[randome]

39. This is too common a pattern on DU.

When OWS peetered out, the refrain changed to "We won!" Now that it's obvious that Sanders will not be President, it's "He won!"

It's still divisive, isn't it? Why does anyone need to 'win' anything against our own party? Yes, Sanders has contributed to the overall debate. So has Clinton. So has Obama. No one person wins if we all contribute.

I detest this horse-race mentality. (No offense.)
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

85. Well said

[Robbins]

40. no he has lost

dems don't care about issues.they are proving there is no place for liberals and progressives In Democratic party.

Once primarys are over Clinton will move back to center/right and be all about finding middle ground.and majority of dems
support that since they support her.

The only way for bernie to win is to win nomination and that seems unlikely to happen since too many dems are prepared to vote for her nomatter what.

[Utopian Leftist]

61. Don't give up hope.

A lot can happen in a year, and we all know that it's going to take a hell of a lot more than Bernie OR Hillary to affect meaningful change in America, from our current point.

It IS going to take a revolution of sorts. We progressives are capable because science is on OUR side. They have the money but we have the masses of reasonable people who sincerely care about the future of the country.

And the world cannot wait for the time to be right for socialism in America. Mother Nature will not tolerate more abuse. And that time will never come until we the people decide we've had enough and MAKE it come!

[Robbins]

67. actuly it's more like 4 months

If bernie doesn'r win both iowa and NH it's over.and he has been losing ground since debate.

only way for Bernie to win is to win nomination.otherwise this campagin has been failure.you can't move clinton left.

[sabrina 1]

41. Or the 'Corrosive effects of money on our electoral system' - Joe Biden

[Zorra]

49. The purpose of this revolution is to take our country back from the oligarchs,

and establish a genuine working democracy.

Occupy, and Bernie, have done much to change the national dialogue. But if Bernie is not elected POTUS, the establishment corporate government will do whatever it takes to maintain the privatized idiocracy of the oligarchy.

Changing the national dialogue is a gain, but it is not victory. Victory is Bernie in the White House, and all of us working together to transform our country from an inhumane and violent profit obsessed oligarchy, into a compassionate democracy, where the interests of human beings are of primary importance.

That is what real win is.

[Duval]

70. And there's more to come! eom

[Eric J in MN]

71. They're talking about that stuff, but

...Hillary Clinton still opposes free state universities, instead promising a centrist band-aid she calls "debt-free college."

I don't feel that's a victory.

[Demeter]

74. It's a nice start, to be sure, but I think we deserve a COMPLETE victory

After 50+ decades of abuse.

[Bernblu]

75. They will talk about Bernie's issues in the campaign

but unless Bernie wins the Democratic establishment will wipe them under the rug until the next election. If you want to end the third-way pretend progressive kubuki campaigns we get every election you must vote for Bernie.

[sabrina 1]

77. Yes, he has! Go Bernie! He ignores all the noise, and just keeps going! Gathering more and more

support every single day!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

106. What I love about Bernie - he's the real deal.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[ErikJ]

79. Bernie is a cheater though. No billionaire to brown nose. nt

[liberal_at_heart]

80. K&R

[valerief]

82. We can also thank Occupy Wall Street for massive public awareness of income inequality. nt

[WorseBeforeBetter]

98. Absolutely. (n/t)

[Jester Messiah]

89. If Bernie isn't the nominee, all the happy talk will go up in smoke after the primary.

I don't trust Hillary to stick to anything she says, and she will say anything to get elected.

[WillyT]

102. + 1,000,000,000 - What You Said !!!

[PosterChild]

91. Yep. And ironically enough...

.... he couldn't have pulled off this "victory " without pretending to be a serious candidate .

[TheKentuckian]

97. Maybe but WE haven't won shit. Qualified lip service doesn't mean much.

[McKim]

99. All Talk and Later No Walk

Of course Hillary is now talking progressive. But once elected, she will revert to her old self. Just like Obama all talk and little walk.

[Doctor_J]

100. except that Mrs Clinton has no intention of actually following through on her newfound

populism. She will meet the teabaggers 9/10 of the way.

[DonCoquixote]

101. this

"Without Bernie in the race all we would be hearing about is finding "Middle Ground" with a bunch of Tea Farty fanatics "

[akbacchus_BC]

107. No, in as much as I admire Bernie's stand, you very well know that a

lot of Americans hate that socialist word. And no matter how Bernie tries to explain what he means by being a Democratic Socialist, those assholes will never understand. He is looking to achieve fairness for all Americans, but man, those clowns on the neocon side will never understand!

[ismnotwasm]

112. Yes.

Hillary certainly would be. O'Malley certainly would be. Oddly phrased question