If I'm trying to change people's minds, I don't insult those people

[MineralMan]

by calling them snarky names. I've never found that to be a useful technique. For example, when I'm trying to convince a potential client that a new approach to marketing is needed, I don't call that client an "idiot" or an "adbot" for not already understanding that my search engine marketing solution will work better. If I did, I'd soon be out of business.

I'm pretty sure the same thing applies when it comes to primary elections. We're all Democrats, to some degree or another, and we're trying to decide among Democratic candidates running for President.

I don't understand how things like attaching "-bot" or "-bro" to a candidate's name aids at all in convincing people to switch to whatever candidate you or I current support. Similarly, the suffix "-ista" doesn't really help an argument if you use it to describe the very people you would like to convince to support your position.

I like the term "supporter" when referring to a candidate and his or her followers. "Fans" is OK, too, because we are fans of candidates we like.

"Third-wayers" is another term that is used a lot to refer to supporters of Hillary Clinton. I doubt that more than a handful of Clinton supporters has ever even visited the Third Way website.

I don't know, but it seems to me that the goal of attracting people to support whatever candidate you favor might be better done by using positive attributes of that candidate than by calling the people you want to convince names.

It would sure make things a lot more sane around this place, in any case.

[el_bryanto]

1. I think you may not be considering the warm glow of superiority that comes

when I label the people supporting the other candidate as something horrible. It just feels so nice to know how much better I am than people who support the wrong candidate - and not just intellectually better. I'm also morally better; frankly I'm just a better person all the way around.

It's obvious - if they were up to my level they would support the candidate I support.

Bryant

[MineralMan]

2. There IS that.

[Fumesucker]

6. I find Berniebro to be kind of charming in an over the top sort of way

It doesn't bother me at all to call myself a Berniebro, I'm quite a fan of sarcasm and satire and figured out long ago that the best way to ridicule and defuse name calling is to embrace it, not fight it.

It's why the various Mannys get so many recs.

[MineralMan]

10. Yah, OK. Berniebro is used mostly by his fans to

describe themselves. Good point. I'm not a big Manny follower, though. I look at some of his OPs, but not most of them.

Recs? I pay almost no attention at all to them. I can't see how they matter much, and when I have looked at them, they're really predictable. Even recs for my posts are predictable. That's not why I post.

[Fumesucker]

14. Recs mean people appreciate a post

You yourself have pointed out how many recs come from names we never or seldom see in threads.

My own rule of thumb is the reply/rec ratio. Lots of replies and few recs means flamebait usually, few replies and lots of recs means something solid but uncontroversial.

[MineralMan]

22. Most of the time they do mean that, yes.

At other times, though, they are just expressions of support for a frequent poster who has fans here.

It's pretty easy to tell which is which, really.

[Fumesucker]

30. All any of us here are our words and ideas

If someone has "fans" that means their words and their ideas please people.

I appreciate Manny because he says what I would like to better than I can and I'm not bad at it. He sees and exposes the half clever little memes slithering around by going over the top with them in a way I find very humorous.

Laugh, cry or scream, modern politics has got to that point for many and some of us choose laughter, you saw the results a few weeks ago when I momentarily couldn't laugh at it.

Do you think it's just coincidence that comedians were telling the truth more during the Bush years than were the news media?

[MineralMan]

33. OK. I look at the place differently than you do, I guess.

That's fine.

[Fumesucker]

41. I see people differently than you do

Sorry about your mother, that all happened to me so long ago it's almost a different life, had never even been in a relationship and now my grandkids drive to visit me.

Peace.

[merrily]

52. Berniebro is okay for sarcasm, but I can't relate to it otherwise.

[d_legendary1]

81. First time I ever hear of the term

Not sure what to make of it either.

[merrily]

82. Some periodical type website used it to describe supporters of Sanders, supposedly bad, bad, people.

MannyGoldstein repeated it in some of his sarcastic posts.

As a woman who has been labeled "too literal" more than once (probably accurately some of the time), I can't relate to being called a Berniebro.

[d_legendary1]

90. As a guy in his early 30's I can't relate to this term either

Thanks for the brief explanation of the term. At least I know now if anyone uses this term its not well intentioned.

[merrily]

92. You're welcome. One caveat: Some use it sarcastically, when mocking those who use it as an insult.

[frazzled]

17. Bingo

It's not so much the direct insults or name calling, it's the insinuation that people just don't understand or know enough about the issues, because if they did they'd certainly be for my candidate. (See, for instance, the insinuation that Delores Huerta must be dumb because she apparently doesn't know that Sanders is calling for a minimum wage $2 higher than Clinton.)

Actually, I kind of cringe when I hear the plea to just stick to the issues to convince people. Because people, here at least, generally know where candidates stand on issues. And because, truth be told, the candidates within each of the parties are not really that far apart from each other on the issues. When it comes down to it, it's a D v R situation in this country right now, and whether a candidate says this or that about a subject on their website is no promise of how that will shake out in reality should that candidate be nominated or elected. So many other considerations, reasonable or not, such as character, experience, demeanor, etc. come into the equation, aside what is being said on the campaign trail regarding this or that issue.

Bill di Blasio was our perfect progressive candidate. He's having a helluva time trying to get anything done at the moment, and everyone seems to have a beef with him now. We can't think only about the issues, and conking me over the head with hypothetical responses to vast, complex issues right now to convince me I'm stupid and wrong ... well, that may just push me in the opposite direction from what you are intending.

[MynameisBlarney]

62. Kinda like Schadenfreude

But on steroids.

[Dem2]

99. Lol

Thanks for making me smile.

[Rebkeh]

3. There's a not-so fine line between

attacking a position and attacking a person. Policies, philosophies, opinions, perspectives are fair game but name calling - not so much. People get emotional (myself included, from time to time) and that line starts to blur. Frequent breaks help, as does keeping the end goal in mind. It's really about votes at the end of the day.

[MineralMan]

23. Well, DU isn't really representative of overall Democratic

thinking in the rest of the world. Sadly, though, some of the same divisive strategies are being used elsewhere, too. The results will be obvious as the actual primaries occur.

[Fumesucker]

4. No long term poster here expects to convince a partisan of the other side of anything

This is first off entertainment, second a pretty good source of information if you are eclectic about what threads you read and third it's just barely possible that some lurkers or guest readers or whatever you wish to call them may weigh the opposing arguments in making their personal decision.

I can read just the titles of the first page of GD-P when I come back after being off in the real world for a while and get two or three belly laughs out of it.

[MineralMan]

7. I suppose so. Sadly, though, similar tactics appear

to be in use away from forums like this one. In the meat space I occupy, politics is not really much of a topic, for the most part. During general election campaign season, though, I am out knocking on doors in my precinct, doing GOTV and supporting candidates. It's rare when someone outright rejects my visits. In most cases, I get a chance to say something about how a Democratic candidate will address a concern someone I'm talking to expresses. That's why I listen to what people are saying and come up with something relevant to talk about.

In my opinion, any of the current three Democratic presidential primaries would be just fine in the White House. I know what Presidents can and cannot do in that office. I understand the limitations they have and the need for Congressional support for anything that has a chance of getting done.

The candidate I support is the one I think has the best chance of getting elected next November, but I don't dislike any of the Democrats who are running. They're all good people and support things I tend to agree with. For me, it's all about winning in November.

That's the real world I live in. It's a world where either a Democrat or a Republican will be President in 2017. I prefer having a Democrat win that election.

[Fumesucker]

13. I really don't like strangers hitting me up to convince me of something but I'll try to be polite

I don't like hurting people's feelings and I know many of my opinions are upsetting to a great many people around me so I keep them to myself mostly despite the fact I'm often tempted just to tell them what I ~really~ think. Not everyone is so kind.

For example... http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218215937

[BlueCaliDem]

56. Not necessarily true. Partisans here have convinced me NOT to support Bernie Sanders.

There's that.

[Fumesucker]

70. You are disagreeeing with an argument I didn't make

I said no one expects to convince a partisan of anything.

[Capt. Obvious]

5. Today's repeat of another nag is brought to you by the letter M

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=789399

[MineralMan]

8. I'm not seeing your point, really.

Most of GD-P is repeated posting of the same things. I post an OP or two on average here on a typical day. I'm not seeing the problem. It's easy enough to selectively click on threads. Thanks for taking the time to reply to this one.

[Capt. Obvious]

9. I look forward to your next valuable contribution in a few hours

I don't expect a repeat for two days though.

[MineralMan]

11. I'm not sure I'll have time today, beyond this thread.

My 91 year old mother has some alarming medical symptoms just now and is having some tests today. She's in California, so I should be hearing from my sister, an experienced RN, sometime soon. I may have to decide to fly out there from Minnesota.

I also have a web content contract deadline looming.

Enjoy the break.

[SwampG8r]

15. Want to say

All my heart to you in these weeks ahead
I just came from NC where we laid my dad down for the last time at 87
The road you are entering is hard
We have had occasion to agree and disagree on du
Today you have my prayers

[MineralMan]

19. Thank you. When your parents are both 91 years old,

you have received a gift. Few people see their parents reach that advanced age. Still, every phone call coming from the town where they live makes my heart skip a beat. I call them every day, at exactly the same time, and we chat for half an hour or so. It's the calls that come from my brother and sister, who live in the same town they do, that are worrisome.

I'm aware daily that any call could be devastating. It's part of my daily life, really. I'm in Minnesota because my wife's mother lives here. We moved here after her late father had a stroke. Her mom is 87, and is in a transitional care facility after a fall and six broken ribs. It looks like she'll survive this injury, but we're in the same position with her, too.

We're fortunate, indeed, to have had our parents with us as long as we have. We never forget that, and try to be prepared for what is inevitable at some point. We also know that you can never really be prepared.

My fingers are crossed today.

[SwampG8r]

29. What I learned

Does closest will always try and paint a better picture on the situation then it may be
This will include your brothers your sisters your mother or your father
A month before my father passed was the first time anyone would acknowledge that he had cancer
Good luck

[MineralMan]

32. My sister is a no-nonsense person, and always gives me the

straight information about my parents' health issues. As a lifelong nurse, now retired, she is quite blunt in her assessment of the situation. I appreciate that from her.

[SwampG8r]

34. Then you have good Info

Married to a nurse midwife and rn so she will tell what it is
Again I hope all works for the best

[MineralMan]

65. Good news. It was a false alarm. The MRI of her

brain didn't show anything. So, she's home and will be heading off for her weekly appointment at the hairdresser in a couple of hours.

Good news, this time.

[SwampG8r]

94. That s great

In the future though dontnsay her MRI showed nothing
I would say nothing unusual lol

[Chitown Kev]

12. Well...

Last edited Thu Nov 12, 2015, 12:48 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm an uncommitted voter who is probably closest to BS on the issues but "the issues" are only one criterion for selecting a president as far as I am concerned...so a Bernie Sanders supporter would have to convince on electability, ability to be effective, etc.

Any given supporter is also an ambassador for a given candidate or issue.

Therefore, when some of the loudest contingents of BS supporters assume that I (a black voter) am uninformed, that I have Stockholm Syndrome, etc. etc. I do think that says something about the type of people attracted to a certain candidate.

And if there is one thing that I hate and turns me off, it is self-righteousness.

[SwampG8r]

16. I like your style

Even in disagreement your posts are pretty informed stuff and we'll presented
But if self righteous isn't your thing du must look like a gathering of village idiots.

[Skidmore]

18. I think you just very nicely illustrated both Kev's and MM's points

in that post. Sometimes less is more.

[SwampG8r]

31. I'm not sure I get your meaning

Truly.

[MineralMan]

20. Yes. I understand that very well.

Any candidate who wins will need the support of people of color, and in large numbers. The rhetoric here, and in other places, doesn't seem to be aimed at actually getting that support. Sad.

[Fumesucker]

27. Uninformed sufferers of Stockholm syndrome voting against their best interests?

I think I've heard that description before on DU at some point or other, maybe it'll come to me.

[artislife]

21. Not in this OP. nt

[procon]

24. I'd settle for just the facts, thank you.

Tell me what the candidate stands for.
What are the details of their policies if elected.
Explain how the candidate would actually implement those policies.
Show me their published platform so I can read about their current ideas in depth.
Be realistic about the candidate's weaknesses and how they must improve.
Show me how those policies are any different or better than the existing ones.
Define how those policies are different and better than what the opponent is offering.
Describe how those policies will actually improve my life.
Just answer questions openly and without prevarication.

[MineralMan]

25. I usually try to get that information directly from candidates.

Much of what passes for news these days is really opinion. We seem to have lost the ability to discern the difference between news and opinion.

I listen to candidates. Still, I also watch what campaigns and supporters do. There's something to be learned from that as well, especially during primary season.

[procon]

40. Some candidates remain kinda sketchy of their platform details, yeah?

I understand the reasoning for the deliberate lack of details, but in turn, that makes it harder to learn and difficult ro verify the specious and outlandish claims made by fervent fans.

I too, take note of the behavior and prevailing attitude of a candidate's fan base as it reflects the presidential temperament and leadership ability of the candidate. Would I even want to be associated with such like minded people?
Even early on, a presidential candidate must set the tone and mood projected by their campaign and adherents, even if it means weeding out the rancorous elements that create a hostile and negative image of the candidate because that alienates too many potentially interested and unaligned new voters.

[MineralMan]

42. They all do, pretty much.

Most of the position and policy information they put out is hedged carefully. Primary elections are not really the time for detailed plans. They're more about general feel and presence, along with determining how well they can acquire funding and followers.

The question very many voters ask is, "Can this candidate win." Important endorsers, especially, think about that question carefully before adding their names to the endorsee list. It's an important question, after all, even though many on DU seem to think otherwise.

Having participated in one way or another in a bunch of presidential elections, that always seems to be the overriding question the party has when selecting a nominee in the years where a Democrat wins the election.

1968 sucked especially badly in that regard. That was a depressing year all around for Democrats. The years that followed were even more depressing. Not our best showing, to say the least.

[Gothmog]

26. A Sanders supporter called me a bad parent

That was a really dumb way to convince me to support sanders

[MineralMan]

28. That's very weird.

I can't imagine someone doing that, really, as part of a political discussion. What could possibly be the point?

I'd like to see that discussion. You can DU Mail me a link, if you like.

[Gothmog]

96. I was stating that as the father of two daughters, I was proud to support Clinton

A sanders supporter took offense to this statement because supporting Clinton would be bad for my daughters. I was a really sad exchange

[MineralMan]

97. I'm sorry to hear that.

People sometimes let their enthusiasm get the better of them and say stupid things.

[SwampG8r]

36. And I saw a Clinton supporter make a joke out of someone's dead child

No one has clean hands

[shenmue]

71. Oh really

[Logical]

39. Sure they did. Nt

[Iggo]

53. They turned me into a newt.

[Aerows]

55. Okay

You nearly owed me a new keyboard!

[BlueCaliDem]

35. "Supporter" is the most polite term to use. "Bots", "Fans", or "Shills" are meant to be put downs,

in my honest opinion. The term "bots" is short for "robot" and implies a lack of self-awareness and critical analytical thinking skills. "Fans" is short for "fanatics" - not very complimentary although it can depend on one's usage. And "shills", well, that word is out and outright ugly and disrespectful and there are no excuses to use it on anyone here - ever.

[MineralMan]

37. I forgot to include "shills." That's one of the worst possible words to

use in describing supporters of a candidate. The implications of it are just plain ugly. I've been called that, and I actually don't sing the praises of my favored candidate much here. I say I'm supporting her and why, but I'm not really that active in doing so on DU. That's because I really approve of all of the candidates. I just think Clinton has the best chance of becoming President. That, and a lot of clumsy support for Sanders that tends to alienate people has made her my choice.

I think people should vote in the primaries for the candidate they like best. I don't actually campaign for anyone in primary elections. As a minor Democratic Party functionary, I shouldn't do that, so I don't. I can state my preference, but that's about as far as I go in actual work in my precinct. As the caucus nears, I'll post a list of candidates on the precinct website and encourage people to show up and support the one they prefer. That's it.

[BlueCaliDem]

45. It's as if I'd written your post because it's exactly how I feel.

I don't believe I've been called a "shill" yet, but I could be wrong since I gloss over those words in responses to me. But I've seen it used in connection with Hillary Clinton supporters here and everywhere else. That nasty term is also hybridized with Hillary Clinton's given name. Shamefully disrespectful, but it tells me a lot about the person doing it.

I have issues with all three Democratic candidates, but I had them with President Obama in 2008 and 2012, too. I understand that it's impossible to get 100% of everything I want from a single candidate since no one is perfect. I also understand that the lion's share of my issues would require Congress' cooperation. My interest is in seeing this country move forward, and I'm looking for a Democratic candidate who can stand up to Republicans, has allies among congressional Democrats, can work the Teapublican House to get what we need, and above all else, can actually win against the well-funded Republican money machine in the G.E.

I feel only Hillary Clinton can at this point.

[MineralMan]

46. Oh, "Shillary, Shrillary, Billary" and other modifications of the candidate's name

are heinous, in my opinion. When I see them, I think "Oops, right-winger in the house" immediately. Anyone who does that has no opinion I'm interested in, ever. Yesterday, someone called Hillary Clinton "pure evil." I alerted on that crap and the post got hidden.

Such stuff is the stuff of teabaggers, in my opinion, and not worth any support here.

[whatchamacallit]

51. BS, Berniebots, Bernistas, Berniebros...

Such a selective awareness...

[MineralMan]

54. Those as well. I'm talking about all candidates in this thread.

Last edited Thu Nov 12, 2015, 03:19 PM - Edit history (1)

You're reading selectively. You'll also see none of those in any of my posts.

[corkhead]

38. Then If you are trying to change people's minds, don't insult those people

Last edited Thu Nov 12, 2015, 02:50 PM - Edit history (1)

with condescension.

You're welcome.

[MineralMan]

43. I'm sure you will do as you think best.

Thanks for the kick.

[corkhead]

72. my pleasure

[longship]

44. Well put, MM.

As I have recently posted myself, a substantial part of DU has turned into a toxic waste dump. The personal attacks are unbelievable, yet remain pervasive. People argue against the person instead of the political position. As you posted here, that is no way to convince anybody.

Insults never do.

R&

[mmonk]

47. So the Third Way came up with it's own snarky name. Why blame us?

http://www.thirdway.org/

[corkhead]

74. just like "teabagger"

coincidence?

[Iggo]

48. I'm not trying to change people's minds.

[whatchamacallit]

49. Your posts insult my intelligence

[MineralMan]

66. Don't read them, then.

Problem solved. Just skip right over them. I won't mind at all.

[Aerows]

50. No, you just make condescending posts

lecture people and generally author paternalistic posts like this one.

[MineralMan]

67. Thank you for taking the time to reply.

[Aerows]

98. You are welcome.

I did not reply out of spite, but out of courteous disagreement.

[brooklynite]

57. I'm not trying to change people's minds...

...at least not here. I assume most people here are locked in to their respective choices. My efforts to change people's minds occur in the real world where the average voter doesn't read political blogs.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

63. the average primary voter very likely does

[ZakCarter]

58. Huffington Post columnist Robin Koerner

Has some really great articles out there on winning supporters rather than "winning" an argument and losing potential supporters...

[MineralMan]

68. I'll check them out. Thanks.

[daleanime]

59. Some times the question is the answer....

many of the posts you are referring to are not intended to 'win hearts and minds'. To do my best to be charitable, some are meant to rally the troops, others are simply to vent, most of the rest are just flame bait.

It's best not to worry on it too much and hope everyone else does the same. Because some seem truly willing to tear it all down rather then let change happen.

[jeff47]

60. No, you rely on condescension instead.

Has it been terribly effective yet?

[corkhead]

73. It must be to him because he will double down on it by thanking you for kicking his thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251798173#post43

[La Lioness Priyanka]

61. honestly, I really have to sometimes remember that I like Bernie Sanders a LOT

it's some of his supporters on DU that i do not like.

and i do not like them because of the way they talk about people not supporting Bernie.

[MineralMan]

69. I like Bernie a lot, too.

I'd vote for him in a minute if he were the nominee.

I don't think he will be, though, and don't think he would win against a Republican who is not an absolute nutcase. Marco Rubio is likely to be the GOP nominee, I think now. Bush is done, although I used to think he'd be the nominee.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

76. i think rubio is the likely nominee too. I think whomever wins from our side (most likely HRC) will

tap one of the castro brothers as their running mate.

[MineralMan]

77. That seems logical as a VP choice, for many reasons.

[aikoaiko]

86. I hear you. I was a default HRC supporter and then switch to Bernie

I have to try hard to remember that I was willing to vote for her and not adopt the "I can't vote for HRC because of some of her disposable supporters" which we sometimes see on DU.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

89. i think it pays to remember that one of them will win, and demonizing him/her

will make it cognitively dissonant for you when you end up voting for him/her (which given that this is a big D board, one hopes people will)

[ErikJ]

64. "Circular firing squads' are a waste. Save your ammo for the RWers.

I dont debate LWers on candidates, I debate RWers which is time consuming enough. Maybe need to spend more time outside the LW bubble.

[lark]

75. In a lot of these, conversion doesn't seem to be the goal.

Derision or condescension seems to be a more descriptive word for quite a few of "those" responses/ OP's.

Thank you for your appeal to our better selves.

[underpants]

78. Mineralista Manbro

Great post. Rec'd.

[MineralMan]

79. LOL!

Maybe I'll use that as a pseudonym for satire posts.

It'd be better than MineralManny, which I retired after a post was hidden for using it.

[underpants]

80. I think that was my first post in GD:P

If not the first certainly in the single digits. Yeah like I need THAT in my life.

[MineralMan]

83. I loved it. Please vote in my pseudonym poll:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251799165

[randys1]

84. I was honestly shocked to find out there were alleged liberals willing to risk Teaparty

control of our country if they didnt get their way.

I assumed anyone saying it was a rightwing plant, as there are several of those on any message board of any size, but beyond those few I continue to be shocked.

[MineralMan]

85. Well, see, if the Teaparty wins the Presidency

and the Republicans continue to dominate Congress, the country will descend into Hell. It will rise again, however, four years later, to become an ideal socialist democracy that destroys capitalism, guarantees that all citizens will live to be 100 years old, and there will be no further need for elections, since everything will be copacetic for everyone. Even the teabaggers will recognize the wisdom of the new order at once. That's the plan.

In solidarity,
Mineralista Manbro

[AgingAmerican]

87. Actually you do insult people

You just aren't self aware enough to see it.

[MineralMan]

88. I see. Thanks for your analysis.

And thanks for the additional kick for my thread.

[Tipperary]

91. I agree wholeheartedly.

[pinstikfartherin]

93. We don't do sane around here anymore.

The only way to get discussion is to post hit pieces on a candidate. Real topics and issues fall like a brick.

[Hiraeth]

95. Black kids are being killed in the streets but, you don't care for our tone.

Isn't this OP just another version ... ? seems to me, yeah it is.... I could be wrong but, I don't think so.

This OP of yours cuts both ways. HRC supporters on here have been very bit the same as what you are describing here.

My last five-six jury duties prove it.

[Hiraeth]

100. In real life the squeaky wheel gets the grease.