While fooling around on ancestry.com today I got to doing Rmoney's family tree just for fun.

[kestrel91316]

Aside from the fact that he has a few surnames in common with me (though any common ancestors are obviously over 200 years ago if at all), one thing disturbed me greatly.

Now, I have Mormon ancestors just like him. I know what the LDS church is about, especially their habit of baptizing the dead, and even baptizing Jews who died in the Holocaust. But what I found out about what he and Queen Ann did really bothers me.

Ann Rmoney was raised in a nominally religious home, and her father was actually a vehement atheist until the day he died. Mitt and Ann baptized him into the LDS church after his death. From his Wikipedia page:

"Davies rejected religion and (was) an avowed atheist. He was known to call organized religion "hogwash" and "drudgery". However, 11 months after his death, he was baptized in accord with Mormon tradition. Mormonism being the religion of his children including his daughter Ann Romney and son-in-law, 2012 Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney. Despite Davies being an avowed atheist to his death, Mitt and Ann Romney performed the ritual afterwards.[7]"

The fact that they waited until 11 months after he died is significant: her mother died 9 months after her husband. I suspect it would have horrified her mother for them to do so. They had SO LITTLE RESPECT for her parents that they did this to them, knowing full well how Davies felt. It just chills me.

These people are sociopaths. They are so concerned about their OWN status in the church that they completely disrespect their elders. It's almost as bad to me as the Holocaust victim baptisms.

WEEEEEEEEEE want to have our own planet in the afterlife and reign over our lessers, so WEEEEEEEE will do ANYTHING to ANYBODY in this life to get it.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Just because they did these baptisms, doesn't mean they actually took.

I think the posthumous baptisms are essentially worthless.

Just my 2 cents...

[Angry Dragon]

4. That is beside the point

It is respecting other people
and it seems they have no respect for others

[kestrel91316]

7. Exactly. It is the height of disrespect and hubris.

[roguevalley]

15. true, but if memory serves me right they wanted to be together in the afterlife and

this guarenteed they would be able to see each other. If I can remember it right.

[abumbyanyothername]

17. As for respecting the dead

I'm with Dave Cross here. When I'm dead, do with me what you will. Fart in my face. Cut of my penis. Poke out my eyeball and stick your penis in the socket.

I won't care because I'm dead.

Sheesh.

[Angry Dragon]

18. Some do

[davidpdx]

19. Don't have that put on your gravestone

There are people out there that just might do it.

[Angry Dragon]

2. Willard -- the great American liar and fraud

[Rosa Luxemburg]

3. Against the father's wishes

[HereSince1628]

5. The trouble isn't vicarious baptism for the dead, it's that some people think it matters.

That belief held onthis side of death by Mormons and their anti-vicarious baptism is what makes this little tempest in the baptismal font.

[Momgonepostal]

6. I'm a Mormon and know a little about baptisms for the dead...

A couple of random thoughts:

1. You can't have a baptism done for a deceased family member until they have been dead at least one year. It's been like this at least since the mid 1980's.

2. Mormons believe that after death, we still have our free-will. So if Ann's father has been baptized in a proxy ceremony what that does is allows him the accept the ordinance. If he still thinks religion is a bunch of hooey, he won't accept the baptism.

3. My "status" in the church is not based on any work I do or don't do for my elders.

And for the record, I'm a democrat and an Obama supporter. I'll be voting Obama/Biden (again!) in November.

[kestrel91316]

8. I still think it was particularly sneaky and underhanded.

If we have free will in the afterlife and god is truly in charge, why can't we just be baptized in the afterlife rather than somebody down here on poor little flawed earth doing it for us???

Seems kind of silly and bass-ackwards.

[Momgonepostal]

10. Because you need a body to be baptized

In the spirit world, you don't have your body.

I don't see how having a baptism done for your own father is sneaky or underhanded. If you know about how, how sneaky could it be?

[kestrel91316]

13. If baptism is about matters of the mind and choice and belief, why

is a body necessary? If the body is so important, why don't we have one in the "spirit world"?

I guess now you can see why I'm not religious. I ask too many questions and don't simply accept dogma. My family has been like this ever since my g-g-g-grandfather, Bill Hickman, figured out that the Mormons weren't worth murdering for anymore and he ratted out Brigham and the Danites, lol. We went through a few generations of being jacks and then fell away altogether.

[HereSince1628]

22. Why do catholics, lutherans, baptists etc baptize if it's unnecessary?

I think your comments are spot on, but they actually apply to all christian denominations that insist upon this act of obedience from followers.

[Angry Dragon]

9. Are you not stepping on others' rights without their permission??

seems pretty rude of Mormons

[Momgonepostal]

11. I don't see how.

Especially when it's your own father.

[Angry Dragon]

12. Gee ....... I guess because it is his life not hers

I would think if he would have wanted it he would have done it before he died

It is called respect ........... I guess she and her husband have none for others

[kestrel91316]

14. It's exceptionally rude when he made it abundantly clear how he felt about

all religion when he was alive and breathing and actually existed.

[gaspee]

21. How's he supposed to

become god of his own planet if he's not baptised? I cannot believe that seemingly sane people, in this day and age believe this shit. And then baptise dead people who didn't agree with their delusions. Talk about disrespecting the dead!

[HereSince1628]

24. Strange as it may seem that's only part of it...

The LDS culture deep family ties...clearly not always met, but that's the model. In their view things like extended family reunions, in this life, are very important to a happy and satisfying life. That is pushed forward into eternity as marriages and children (born before a couple is married in a temple) are sealed to each other for time and eternity...thus it's possible to have truly extended family reunions and the rewards that come with them in a celestial existence.

From a sociological perspective the ancestral proxy baptisms, proxy sealings, create a great sense of importance to family and to family roots. If you know many mormons you will know that they have family problems like all families. But they are under great peer pressure to achieve family cohesion, which is itself a proxy for the cohesion within the wards and branches of the church that both holds the church together and perpetuates it among descendants of living members.

[abumbyanyothername]

16. Arguing about posthumous baptisms

is a bit like getting in a fight over who has more powerful superpowers, superman or spiderman.

I mean, if I am going to give the pugs credit for anything I heard tonight it's now their theme that rights come from god AND NATURE.

So apparently we are making progress on the scientific and environmental front.

Small progress, I admit.

[davidpdx]

20. I think whether you are alive or dead you can't force religion upon people

I won't say anything else about religion because that's likely to get me in trouble.

[kenny blankenship]

23. I think it's great we have a Gypsy running for President.

Romany (also known as Gypsies in English, from the Greek gyptoi)-> Romney, the surname of one of the two mountebanks running for the office.
They say, "America's diversity is its strength"; in fact our diversity is so strong and imperturbable, I doubt we'd notice any difference if he won.

[FreeState]

25. Only 9 months? Church policy is 1 year

https://www.lds.org/manual/members-guide-to-temple-and-family-history-work/chapter-7-providing-temple-ordinances?lang=eng

[mike_c]

26. personally, I really don't care whether anyone chants their mumbo jumbo...

...over anyone-- myself included-- who is dead. Dead is dead. You can't hurt the dead. Disrespect is lost on them utterly. This LDS nonsense is just another bit of superstitious stupidity. Let them "baptize" anyone they like. Hell, they can baptize me while I'm still alive for all I care. Let them waste their breath. Piss on 'em.

[Ebadlun]

27. Is Romney descended from King John?

If not, it looks bad for his chances.