It's official -- Mitt is about to leave the building

[rocktivity]

Last edited Sun Sep 2, 2012, 12:30 AM - Edit history (1)

Sue Emmett, the ex-Mormon great-great-granddaughter of super-Morman Brigham Young, has given an interview to The Daily Beast that should officially mark the beginning of the end for Mitt:

...“Mitt has had people defer to him and not challenge him his entire life,” says Emmett. “In the Mormon church if you challenge your priesthood leaders it’s a very bad thing to do, especially for women. As the world can now see, Mitt has a very hard time with being questioned and criticized; he’s had so little of this in his life..."

...Emmett cites a bit of Mormon lore called the White Horse Prophecy...It suggests that Mormons believe a time will come when the U.S. Constitution is eroding and Mormon leaders will save it and usher in a new theocracy...

Romney has said that he considers the White Horse Prophecy just a matter of speculation by church members. "I haven't heard my name associated with it or anything of that nature," he told The Salt Lake Tribune in 2007. "That's not official church doctrine…I don't put that at the heart of my religious belief..."

But Emmett begs to differ. “I can guarantee you that there are millions of Mormons who believe this prophecy and see Romney as potential fulfillment of it,” she says. “As a Mormon, you grow up hearing about this prophecy. I think Mitt believes he has a mandate from God to become president so he can help move this along. I don’t know if it’s a conscious thought, but it's in his subconscious...”

“Every Mormon grows up with the idea that it’s OK to lie if it’s for a higher cause,” says Clark, who now works for a company that markets employment and labor market data. “But what happens is when this becomes a part of your ethical tool kit, you develop a condescending attitude toward people. Like Ann Romney saying 'you people.’ This idea of lying for the Lord gives you license to place people on an inferior level. It’s OK for Mitt Romney to ignore the principle of full disclosure because it’s in his DNA. Look what he’s doing with his taxes...”

Look at what Mitt (who, by the way, is a descendant of one of the original Mormon families) said about the White Horse Prophecy again: "I haven't heard my name associated with it or anything of that nature. That's not official church doctrine…I don't put that at the heart of my religious belief..." THAT'S supposed to be a denial?


rocktivity

[grantcart]

1. link please

and as the great great great grandson to Young's successor Herber J. I agree.

[Cracklin Charlie]

6. May I be a tiny bit nose-ey?

I have seen a lot of your posts on this subject. It won't bother me if you don't want to answer. Did YOU ever specifically hear Romney's name associated with the Prophecy, when you were growing up? Did you hear about the Prophecy?

[grantcart]

7. Here is the funny part of the story

I grew up in a very active Presbyterian family. I attended a family reunion when I was 7 in Salt Lake City where they showed us, among other things something about Jedidiah Morgan Grant, our great great great great grandfather and the first Mayor of Salt Lake City.

We knew that his son, Heber J Grant, was President of the Mormon Church, and that was about it.

I attended school with Rick Romney, Mitts cousin. I wasn't particularly close to Rick but he was a perfectly nice fun guy. I was obsessed with politics at a very young age and I was fascinated to talk with him in 1969 when his uncle was running for President. Of course I was aware that he must also be Mormon so I told him that I was a direct descendant of Heber J, and Jedidiah M. Grant.

He couldn't believe it. He knew all about these guys. I wanted to learn about his uncle (who really was a great guy) and all he wanted to do is talk about Jedidiah and especially Heber. Turns out Heber was President during the depression and was the guy who brought the chaotic and debt ridden organization into order by renegotiating the debt in New York, which he did after seriously enforcing the anti polygamy order and engaging a public relations campaign.

I would take information from Rick to my Dad and he would tell me what he knew. Like many people who came from Mormon roots he was extremely anti Mormon once he learned about more traditional Christianity. I would go back to Rick and he would have counter arguments, which meant that even in the 7th grade they were well prepared to answer any anti Mormon feelings that they would encounter.

I became more interested in it after I attended Seminary and understood just how far out of the confessional tradition Mormonism was, and how much representation there is about it.

One of the things I learned was that Jedidiah Grant was the last living member of the Council of Fifty, charged with implementing Smith's vision of Theodemocracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodemocracy

By the turn of the 20th century, Mormon expectations of an imminent Apocalypse had largely dissipated, and Utah's admission to the Union in 1896 required the removal of the last vestiges of theodemocracy from the local government. The Council of Fifty had not met since the 1880s, and was technically extinguished when its last surviving member, Heber J. Grant, died in 1945. Thus, theodemocracy within the LDS church has slowly receded in importance. While Mormons still believe that the Kingdom of God maintains the bifurcated definition espoused by Brigham Young, both church and millennial government, its political implications are now rarely alluded to. Rather, the kingdom predicted by the Prophet Daniel is commonly identified simply with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.[24] Theodemocracy has become a principle which, when discussed at all, is relegated to an indefinite future when secular governments have already fully collapsed in the turbulent times preceding the Second Coming. Until such time, injunctions within the LDS church to "build up the Kingdom of God" refer to purely spiritual matters such as missionary work, and Joseph Smith's political ideal bears little weight in contemporary LDS political theory or objectives.

I don't think that Romney believes that he is the implementation of Theodemocracy (but he may be that crazy), I think that he is simply running to help bring Mormonism within the realm of 'normalcy' in the US. I think that he is more motivated to become the 4th most important person in Mormon history, the one that made Mormonism as American as apple pie. If he was trying to fulfill the Prophecy I think he would be more tied to some policy, which he is not.

I refereed to that here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002436216

[defacto7]

10. Agreed....

Thank you.

[Cracklin Charlie]

12. Thank you very much for taking the time to answer.

I share your opinion of George Romney, I think he seems to have been a sincerely caring man. His son, not so much. I think your explanation of Mittens' desire to be president is one that I can accept, because he just doesn't seem like he really wants it that bad, to me. I may be wrong, and he may just be that inept a campaigner; but, if he really thought the Presidency was his 'destiny', he would be working harder for it. I just read that he is taking the weekend off. It seems to me that he takes every weekend off lately.

I just happen to live in Independence, MO, so I do have, if not a fascination, then a somewhat creepy Gentile interest in Mormon history. The story of the beginnings of Mormonism are just remarkable to me; I really do not understand what in the world would lead someone to believe in the teachings of Joseph Smith. My city is the world headquarters of the RLDS Church, and Joe Smith was chased out of this town a few times. I regularly shop in a building that he is said to have jumped out the back window of, while being chased by the sheriff.

Have you ever read the book "Devil's Gate"? It is the story of immigrant Saints that were coerced by Brigham Young to WALK to Zion (Utah) from Iowa. It is a chilling tale about the hardships faced by hundreds of people who gave up everything they had ever known in European cities, traveled though an unknown, and inhospitable land, expecting to ride in wagons to the promised land. Imagine how they felt when they reached Iowa, and found no wagons, and Brigham Young ready to shame them for their hesitation to walk to Utah. Many, many people were lost along the way. I believe that I saw your ancestor's name in the book. It is quite a chilling story.

[grantcart]

14. My grandmother on my mother's side was on one of the push cart caravans that were caught in the snow

She was an infant and survived.

We have a picture of her arriving in Davenport WA after they decided to relocate from SLC, it was on a wagon train.

She wrote a 5 page memoir and wrote of the horror of the pushcart caravan and the huge loss of life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_handcart_pioneers

Ann Eliza Young, Brigham Young's 19th wife broke with the Church and accused the tragedy of the late departures on Brigham Young's continual interference in design and production, always trying to reduce the amount of materials to save a few cents on the cost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Eliza_Young

The importance of this is, I believe, that it shows what you can get from other sources that Young was obsessed with control and details and it makes it impossible to believe that the Massacre of Mountain Meadows proceeded wtihout members of the Church contacting him and getting his decision.

I am not sure that George Grant who lead one of the rescue parties was a relative, I haven't worked my geneology back that far yet.

[Cracklin Charlie]

17. Wow!

Thank you so much for sharing your unique perspective. I can not begin to imagine the privations those hand cart pioneers must have faced. To think that once these people left western Iowa; and walked, and pushed their way almost all the way to Salt Lake, they very seldom encountered towns, or other people, along the trail is absolutely chilling. Add to that the fact that these were not people who were at all accustomed to a life on the trail, and you have the makings of an absolute humanitarian disaster. The fact that anyone at all survived is a testament to the strength of an organism's will to live.

The author of the book "Devil's Gate", David Roberts, relates in the book, that the surviving handcart pioneers are much esteemed persons in Mormon culture, and it is considered very desirable to have a handcart pioneer in one's genealogical records. While researching the book, he traveled to Salt Lake City, and booked a room at the Marriott Hotel. He was checking out the lobby, and saw a plaque, or figurine or something that related that someone from the Marriott family was part of the handcart expedition. Having already researched the names of those on the expedition, he knew that this was not the case; there were no Marriotts listed on the expedition. He actually formally asked them to remove this tribute.

[davidpdx]

16. If you aren't working on a book you should be

Lots of possibilities especially after the election is over.

[TeamPooka]

29. no one will care after Mitt loses :)

unless you're saying he will win?

[davidpdx]

30. Nope, not saying he will win

But he has 5 boys who's grandfather and grandmother both ran for office along with their dad. I'd bet at least one of them will.

[CreekDog]

19. The Heber J. Grant Building at BYU

it's the testing center.

[grantcart]

20. great, I will send it to brothers and cousins where it will ignite another round of laghter

at Heber J's expense.



My question "Does it house the Japanese language institute for BYU?".


Heber J was the first missionary to Japan where having spent a couple of years was unable to recruit a single Japanese to join the LDS Church, a fact that always made us wonder why in the hell God would pick a guy to be President that couldn't convince a single Japanese to convert. Either God's screening mechanism was defective or he didn't like the Japanese, lol.

[CreekDog]

24. i think that building is exclusively for the testing center

i always figured they sent the smarter missionaries abroad because not only did they have to do the job, they had to do it in another language.

[grantcart]

26. Well the really smart ones checked out of the enterprise entirely.

[enough]

2. Link? Thanks. (nt)

[Voice for Peace]

9. link

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/07/exclusive-brigham-young-s-great-great-granddaughter-on-mormonism-and-mitt-romney.html

[rocktivity]

3. In the interest of fairness and balance, the reporter also spoke with

Last edited Sat Sep 1, 2012, 11:16 PM - Edit history (2)

official Mormon church spokeswoman Ruth Todd:

“...To assert that my membership or participation in the church is based on compulsion or deception is both offensive and disparaging to me as a woman, and is patently false...The right of every individual [Mormon] to make choices for themselves that determine their path in life and in the eternities is a fundamental doctrine of our faith.

"As a woman, I view my role in the church and in God’s plan as distinct and complementary to the efforts of men. Trying to characterize the role of women in the church in a purely hierarchical way misses the mark and is a flawed premise that demeans the role and value of women.”

But then the reporter was derelict in his duty: He didn't ask, "Is that the REAL truth, or were you lying for the Lord just then?"


rocktivity

[Bernardo de La Paz]

8. Notice that is a non-denial denial. She only said *she* wasn't lied to about her membership.

She leaves open the possibility that the public face of the church is a lie and that the participants can lie about Medicare and taxes and government bailouts of mutual fund companies and tax amnesties for foreign tax dodges and ....

[deutsey]

4. "believes he has a mandate from God to become president"

Wonderful...that worked out so well the last time someone thought they had a similar mandate...

[flamingdem]

5. In other words Willard is a FREAK

[bleever]

11. The very first time I saw Mitt on TV, I thought: This guy thinks he should be the President.

I didn't know anything about the White Horse Prophecy. But there was something that emanated from him onstage at the Salt Lake Olympics that oozed ambition and entitlement, and telegraphed what the guy was all about.

It's something like seeing the one of the girls walking along San Pablo Avenue and knowing that she's not just a woman on her way somewhere in high heels, tight shorts, and with a tiny purse.

No offense to those girls intended.

[treestar]

13. If lying is really OK in this religion

Then it's questionable religion. A cult.

[jenmito]

15. I read about this before. I tweeted it. K&R. n/t

[Cybercat]

18. This is dumb.

This thread is stupid. If we start taking this kind of junk seriously, we're no better than Birthers.

And isn't Harry Reid a Mormon? It's a bunch of crap.

[rocktivity]

21. Apples and Oranges -- or perhaps I should say sergeants and generals

Last edited Mon Sep 3, 2012, 11:10 AM - Edit history (1)

Harry Reid is a convert to Mormonism, whereas Sue Emmet -- as well as Mitt Romney -- are descendants of Mormonism's founding families. They'd have access to knowledge and precepts that Reid and other "non-elite" Mormons wouldn't. Exactly why SHOULDN'T Emmet be believed?


rocktivity

[kestrel91316]

22. If you don't like this thread, hide it. And thank you for your concern.

And Harry's a convert - he's about as "Mormon" as my cats are. That would be why he's not always reminding us what church he belongs to.

[liberalmuse]

27. It's important to talk about.

I was deeply into the Mormon church growing up, and heard the prophecy, so I'm glad this is being brought into question.

[kestrel91316]

23. I agree with Ms Emmett. I get a hinky feeling about Rmoney, that he has been told by church

higher-ups that his task is to fulfill the White Horse Prophesy. And I also believe he has been told to deny any such thing if asked.

He, being a True Believing Mormon (TM), will obey without question.

[liberalmuse]

28. You're probably right...

and that is probably why he doesn't seem like he's fighting for something he already believes is his. No doubt he's met with the church President and discussed things. The Mormon church President supposedly talks directly to God.

[jenmito]

25. I doubt it will affect him. The media isn't TOUCHING this. n/t