2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumI support Bernie 100% - but a few of my fellow supporters are not being realistic
Last edited Thu Dec 31, 2015, 03:29 PM - Edit history (2)
This is either concern trolling or an appeal to reason depending on how one wants to take it..First of all I am not talking particularly about Bernie's chance of winning the nomination or the Presidency. BERNIE CAN WIN!! But it is not going to be easy and there is simply no denying that as of this moment - Hillary is the front runner and significantly the front runner. That can change and I hope it will. If it does not change and Hillary goes on to win the nomination - This campaign has still not been in vain - we will have made a real difference in altering the parameters of debate, changing the political paradigm and brought back social-democracy or at least the New Deal into the mainstream of discussion.
What I am primarily talking about is the question of, what if Bernie does win and becomes President of the United States?
First of all not even FDR or Ronald Reagan came close to achieving all or even most of their goals. What they did was put the country on a whole new course and direction. They established a whole new body politic that dominated the whole nation's body politic and to an extent most of the world's body politic for at least a generation. They made their agenda the dominant political force for a long, long time after they were gone.
I have lived and spent a great deal of time in Europe and observed first hand how social-democracy operates. I'm convinced that it works better than any other system. In fact I would say that nothing else works and social-democracy is the last best hope for humanity.
However, ordinary people do pay higher taxes - including ordinary middle-income and perhaps even lower middle income people do in fact pay higher taxes. It is certain in my mind and in the minds of the overwhelming majority of people who live under more social-democratic systems that it is well worth the price. Even the most conservative of people who live under social-democracy would not want to trade their system or reduce it to U.S. levels. Even Margaret Thatcher promised the British public that the National Health Service and their socialized health care system would be safe under them.
But, again I must mention that even ordinary middle class people do pay higher taxes. Is Bernie being dishonest for not emphasizing this more? NO, I don't think so. I think he understands what many leading Democrats don't seem to understand and that is you must always start negotiations at the maximum one might get - not the minimum. But, the point remains that like with FDR or Reagan - compromises will be made including some very significant compromises. I hope that if Bernie does become President people here are not calling him a sell-out when he has to compromise as he did when he was mayor of Burlington.
Even on foreign policy and military issues - most of us on the progressive end of the spectrum and many others as well would like to see the United States get out of the imperialism business. An unsustainable global military empire is simply not a viable option - realistically. However, as things currently stand almost the entire global security system and even the guarantee of borders and nation/state legitimacy is largely in American hands. We absolutely must try to reduce this to viable and sustainable levels. But it is not going to be easy. We all saw the chaos that came when Soviet power came to an end. In other words, yes we can greatly reduce U.S. interventionism - But it is going to be a very difficult and one might say a very "tricky" process.
Anyway, Rome was not built in a day nor was Rome overthrown in a day. I just hope that none us put our hopes for a better future for our country and our world to such lofty levels that disappoint that cries of "sell out" will be inevitable. Again, take this as either concern trolling or an appeal to reason. For me it is simply a matter of being realistic.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)the United States was on their side - that would make a lot of difference. Knowing that I am really voting to move the country forward in really significant ways - beyond just window dressing - would make a lot of difference.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)My only bone of contention is that it is better to aim high and moderate your goals then to just settle for the same old s*** from the beginning.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)Bjornsdotter
(6,123 posts)I agree...everyone will pay higher taxes however the benefit from in increase will outweigh what people are already paying and the entire lifestyle coverage will be better.
College will be attainable for everyone, healthcare will not break a family financially etc.
There is a reason that the countries with social-democracy have a much better lifestyle and like you I have experienced it first-hand.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)mmonk
(52,589 posts)he will put social security on the table to get a so called budget deal or go along with deregulation of Wall Street deals or "free trade deals" or environmentally destructive deals , etc. for a "legacy" to get things done or loading the party with corporate cash.
Vinca
(50,322 posts)Whether it's Bernie or Hillary in the Oval, the GOP will make it their goal from day one to throw the train off the track . . . as they did with Obama.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)As a supporter, I realize that and I agree some people may be forgetting that he's just one man. Just like people forget that Obama is just one man, but what a difference he's making, both on the surface and under it.
Bernie's campaign isn't about a magic bullet type of fix, rather, it's a course correction. I tend to pay attention to trends rather than events and it's clear to me that a change is already happening. Bernie is just a part of it, a major part, but still just a part.
It's also not about him anyway, it's about us. It's about the nation and who we are going to be.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)... say "I got this."
Look for him to use the Presidential bully pulpit to turn Congress bright blue!
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)I expect him to try
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)here is the bigger issue, which he points out all the
time: We, the people, have to get involved to a great
degree in the political process. That is the only way by
which we can help and support him.
The millennials have not shown a great interest for
getting politically active until now. Yet it is their
generation, which will have to make the difference.
stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)I would LOVE to feel like one branch of our government actually DOES have the best interests of average Americans in mind.
Also, it would be a massive wake-up call to "our" Democratic Congresscritters that care much more what Corporate America thinks compared to those of us who actually vote and put them in office. And, frankly, they NEED a fucking wake-up call.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)You aren't giving us credit for paying attention, for listening to what Sanders is actually saying. Or for paying attention to his record, and to how he gets things done.
From the HRC camp, we've got people throwing everything, including their kitchen sinks at him, hoping something will stick so that HRC gets her "turn." Among the rubbish they are throwing are the suggestions that he "can't win," that he hasn't accomplished anything, that he can't handle the job, that he'd never be able to accomplish his goals in the WH, as if we should simply pack up, go home, and accept the inevitability of HRC, since SHE would of course be able to accomplish what Sanders supposedly couldn't. As if the things we want to accomplish would even be allowed at her table.
Now you are skipping right past the "revolution" part of his campaign to suggest that we're assuming pie in the sky...kind of like reflecting the HRC propaganda camp. I've heard this argument from them repeatedly. Please don't.
FWIW, if you need me to, I'll clearly state:
1. The most important part of supporting Sanders, campaigning for Sanders, electing Sanders, is the change in the national conversation and direction, which will get us started on the very long road to where we want to be.
2. In office, Sanders will continue, inexorably, to work for the changes we all want. He has said repeatedly, and I know, we know, that he can't do it alone. That's why we're going to have to use our votes to elect people to Congress who will work with him, and we're going to have to be in constant contact of all kinds with our Senators and Reps, keeping the pressure on them. How much gets done will reflect whether or not WE stay the course, stay active, and stay involved.
And, just for me, a third:
3. I'm old enough to know it would be foolish to suggest that one man, or one presidency, could make all of the worst characteristics of our nation just disappear. It's a long, long road, and even if we win, right the ship, and head down a better course, the fascists, the neo-cons and neo-libs will still be there, waiting and scheming and working to grab power again. It will take generations of steadfast determination to make a long-term difference. I hope the millenials, the generation Zs, and the generation to come after will do so. As a late baby boomer, I don't expect to live to see it, and I don't think Sanders does, either. The best we can hope for is to see the beginning of the process. That's what I want, and if it doesn't happen with Sanders, I don't think it will happen in my lifetime.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)LWolf
(46,179 posts)I can't seem to help myself, even when it's supposed to be winter break and I brought no student papers home to read, lol.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)process started that needed to start somewhere.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)Last edited Thu Dec 31, 2015, 11:40 PM - Edit history (1)
basic discussion of economic issues including the widening income/wealth gap and serious ideas about what can be done and who had actually had substance beyond vague cliches. Bernie has brought this to a national campaign. This is something we have not seen in a long, long time.
PyaarRevolution
(814 posts)Some of what I'm about to say isn't sexy. Bernie has already mentioned infrastructure so I'll leave that at the door; however, we need to talk about two things with a Bernie presidency past the obvious.
First let's talk about hardening the electrical grid against an EMP. I am NOT referring to an EMP from the idea of a terrorist detonating a nuke in the atmosphere but a solar flare. We know it will happen, it's just a matter of time and if we don't set up this up our electronic infrastructure will be fragged. Democrats and Republicans should be in absolute consensus on this but everyone is ignoring it since our Congress only cares about short term gains. Bernie and all of us need to carry the water on this and force a straight vote, Dems/Republicans should have a unanimous vote on in both Houses of Congress. After all, if the electronic infrastructure is fragged it will be a pain to equitably and most efficiently administrate many government programs and those are the least of our worries.
Secondly, Net Neutrality needs to be implemented in cell phone wireless carriers. Wireless cellular internet like 3G and 4G gets a pass on Net Neutrality right now as far as I know. As part of this, in defense if Net Neutrality is ever revoked and they try to implement Gatekeeper status, everyone here should set up or KNOW how to set up Meshnet.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)everything. That is not why we like him. We like him because he fights for the American people. People have asked why we have been critical of Obama when he clearly has been obstructed by Republicans. It is because the only thing he has really been passionate about to fight for has been the ACA. Almost eight years of being President and he has really only fought for one piece of legislation. Obama is not a fighter. Win or lose I want someone who will fight for me and Bernie is that person.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)djean111
(14,255 posts)That's sort of the bottom line - what do I think I candidate will fight for - and I don't want the things I believe Hillary would fight for.
MuseRider
(34,136 posts)in many ways. If he is able to create those jobs, get people closer to a living wage and takes the pressure off a whole lot of this country by creating a new means of policing ourselves, a means that does not allow shooting to be the first, second or third choice then I think things will cascade a bit. That is just mentioning a few of the real concerns we have.
A lot of this anger pointed at "other" people is spurred on by shear exhaustion, anger, fear and the inability to see your way out of a horrible living situation.
I could be wrong but I believe that a little change will create a lot of change.
Even if not, he will not sit meekly by and not converse with We The People. I believe he will talk to us often, kinda like I seem to remember from the past, and talk to us about all manner of things, each one making our lives a little better.