2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumThe Politics of Bernie Sanders' Shifting Stances on Guns
from Matt Bai:
____On the two most meaningful pieces of gun legislation in American history one that is the foundation for federal gun restrictions, and the other a clear effort by lobbyists to use their muscle to subvert the legal process Sanders came out on the side of industry. Whatever other votes hes taken since becoming a senator (including one to extend Brady to private sellers at gun shows) have to be considered less consequential.
Now, to be clear, my point isnt to castigate Sanders for the votes he cast on a single issue over a 20-year span. My guess is that Sanders would do it differently now if he could, but on the list of things that make me think he might not be the next president who ends up on Mount Rushmore, the gun record sits pretty far down.
But heres the thing: When Sanders and his supporters defend his votes, they like to make the point that Sanders has represented Vermont, where an awful lot of pickup trucks sport NRA stickers, and where an awful lot of gun dealers make a decent living and dont want to get sued out of business.
I come from a rural state, and the views on gun control in rural states are different than in urban states, Sanders explained during the Democratic debate in Las Vegas in October. In an interview on CNNs State of the Union last year, he said: The people of my state understand, I think, pretty clearly, that guns in Vermont are not the same thing as guns in Chicago or guns in Los Angeles. In our state, guns are used for hunting.
In other words, Sanders was representing the interests of his constituents. And you know what that makes Bernie Sanders?
A politician, thats what.
And this is the problem the gun issue creates for Sanders. Because a politician is precisely what he purports not to be. His entire rationale as a candidate is that he alone chooses principle over polls, that he votes his convictions and cant be corrupted by powerful interests or his own ambition.
Conversely, his main indictment of Clinton which he laid out again this week, as Obama wept publicly over the human wreckage of gun violence holds that she is a puppet of Wall Street, unwilling to break up the banks or reinstitute 20th century regulations because shes a creature of political calculation rather than conscience.
It turns out, though, that Sanders understands political reality, too. He voted against the Brady Law because it wasnt popular or especially relevant in Vermont, and you can bet he was already eyeing higher office back then. He voted for immunity at the very moment when he was also running for an open Senate seat, and thats not a coincidence.
All of which is fine. Theres nothing wrong with winning. We elect senators to represent our interests at home, not to go off chasing their own utopian ideals at our expense.
But you cant very well say that its all right for Sanders to look out for rural gun sellers in Vermont (over the welfare of poor kids in Chicago or Los Angeles), and yet somehow Clinton is the embodiment of venality because she took money and advice from Wall Street...
read more: https://www.yahoo.com/politics/on-guns-sanders-has-an-1337642634199094.html
Sancho
(9,070 posts)Bernie is a politician who bends to the will of Vermont on many issues: guns, MIC, immigration. The single biggest problem with Bernie is that he knows it - and he pretends to be above the fray.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Sancho
(9,070 posts)Bernie is perfectly free to represent Vermont like all other politicians. He is being disingenuous when he then says that his not a typical politician.
Bernie is free to say his previous votes on the F35 and gun control were wrong - but he was voting that way in order to keep his seat representing Vermont.
He should not rationalize his choices and pretend he would be "different".
George II
(67,782 posts)....and no city/town with more than 42,000 people.
Even Washington DC has more people than the entire state of Vermont.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)As senator of Vermont, he has 1 of 100 votes in the senate. Vermont is far from determining national policy.
George II
(67,782 posts)....knowing full well that his "constituency" is only 0.2% (that two tenths of one percent)
He's all but said that the problems with gun violence in Chicago is Chicago's problem.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Or those senators shouldn't be able to vote.
Frankly, I kind of like the system that Madison came up with. YMMV.
And, no, he didn't say that.
cali
(114,904 posts)And strongly against the MIC. You know jack about Bernie or Vermont.
djean111
(14,255 posts)Talk about guns, weapons, and the use thereof, all over the world - easy choice for me. Bernie.
MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)thereismore
(13,326 posts)He purports to be a non-establishment politician.
Autumn
(45,082 posts)cry equal to the republican call of "Benghazi!!!" ?? This crap is a fail on every damn level.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)bigtree
(85,996 posts)...and we're working with sticks and stones over here (I happen to be more pacifist).
However, I'm no fan of Sen. Sanders' politics on guns. I think his approach and many of his statements cut across most advocates' efforts to advance meaningful gun safety legislation - gun safety legislation like Martin O'Malley fought for and achieved in my state of Maryland.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)I have not seen gun legislation that would really affect events in the real world.
I do believe in background checks, but even that would simply create barriers....it won't prevent anything.
As a nation, we are awash with guns. I have an acquaintance who offered me a gun. I have no interest
in owning one, but I have seen how easy it is to get one without any sort of check.
for that reason, it is hard for me to get too excited about subtle differences in gun policy between candidates.
...I think this is a good opportunity to bring more focus to the issue. I like and appreciate the way the debates have drawn attention to gun safety reform efforts and obstacles.
There's nothing wrong with challenging these candidates to represent and support the issues we care the most about. If the effort 'fails' we'll just keep pressing, no matter who the candidates are; no matter who holds office.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Hillary was paid millions of dollars by bankers so when people accuse her of being pro-Wall Street they have a point, Bernie otoh never took a dime from the NRA.
Comparing his representation of gun owners in Vermont to her representation of big banks in NY is absurd.
And if Bernie's such a pro-gun/pro-NRA politician why did the NRA give him a D minus lifetime rating?
bigtree
(85,996 posts)there's nothing indicating Sanders is in the pocket of the NRA. Plenty of big money going into the Clinton's bank accounts, though, to question the source and intent.
NRA ratings don't do a thing to address the specific points of disagreement Sanders has had with major gun safety legislation.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)It's obvious that Bernie was representing Vermonters and not the gun industry.
And isn't that what we elected him to do?
bigtree
(85,996 posts)...at the expense of those caught in the crisis of gun violence around the country. I don't have much sympathy for hunters and other gun enthusiasts who don't seem to have anything of consequence at risk in the proposed and enacted legislation over the years.
Sancho
(9,070 posts)You can look at reports from local sources, national sources, socialist sources, and RW sources. All report that Bernie supported the gun industry.
Bernie likes the Scandinavian capitalism - why doesn't he like the Scandinavian gun control? This goes way beyond some hunters in the woods.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/10/13/bernie_sanders_on_guns_at_the_debate.html
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/watch-bernie-sanders-clash-with-a-gun-control-activist-who-thinks-he-sounds-like-the-nra/
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/run-2016/2015/07/10/bernies-big-break-with-the-left-on-guns
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/05/bernie_sanders_on_guns_vermont_independent_voted_against_gun_control_for.html
http://reverbpress.com/news/phillips-lucky-gunner-aurora-shooting/
http://dailycaller.com/2015/05/01/bernie-sanders-second-amendment-socialist/#ixzz3c673QCfm
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/12/19/why-isnt-the-media-discussing-the-unprecedented/191910
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2015/07/10/bernie-sanders-misleading-characterization-of-a-controversial-gun-law/
http://ideas.time.com/2012/12/24/why-is-congress-protecting-the-gun-industry/
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/02/01/1183784/-2005-Law-Gives-Gun-Manufacturers-and-Dealers-Protection-From-Lawsuits-Not-Given-to-Other-Industries#
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anhvinh-doanvo/lets-talk-about-bernie-sa_b_8023768.html
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2015/07/12/gun-control-crowd-still-sour-over-sanders-view-on-second-amendment-n2024288
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/06/24/417180805/bernie-sanders-walks-a-fine-line-on-gun-control
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/252007-conn-governor-hits-sanders-on-gun-control
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2015/09/21/3703618/voters-conflicted-about-bernie-sanders-on-guns/
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)He's never taken a dime from the NRA and his support of gun control has been consistent:
http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_Gun_Control.htm
....However, the Nation and the other reports like it dont shed real light on where Sanders is coming from. They dont explain why he supports some gun controls but not others. Nor do they ask if theres a consistency to Sanders positions and votes over the years? They simply suggest that Bernies position is muddled and makes a good target for Hillary.
Yet there is an explanation. Its consistent and simpler than many pundits think. And its in Bernies own words dating back to the campaign where he was first elected to the U.S. Housein 1990where he was endorsed by the NRA, even after Sanders told them that he would ban assault rifles. That year, Bernie faced Republican incumbent Peter Smith, who beat him by less than 4 percentage points in a three-way race two years before.
In that 1988 race, Bernie told Vermont sportsmen that he backed an assault weapons ban. Smith told the same sportsmens groups that he opposed it, but midway through his first term he changed his mind and co-sponsored an assault rifle baneven bringing an AK-47 to his press conference. That about-face was seen as a betrayal and is the background to a June 1990 debate sponsored by the Vermont Federation of Sportsmens Clubs.
I was at that debate with Smith and three other candidatesas the Sanders campaign press secretaryand recorded it. Bernie spoke at length three times and much of what he said is relevant today, and anticipates his congressional record on gun control ever since. Look at how Bernie describes what being a sportsperson is in a rural state, where he is quick to draw the line with weapons that threaten police and have no legitimate use in huntinghe previously was mayor of Vermonts biggest city, and his record of being very clear with the gun lobby and rural people about where he stands. His approach, despite the Nations characterization, isnt open-minded.
As you can see, Berniewho moved to rural northeastern Vermont in the late 1960shas an appreciation and feeling for where hunting and fishing fit into the lives of lower income rural people. Hes not a hunter or a fisherman. When he grew up in Brooklyn, he was a nerdy jockbeing captivated by ideas and a high school miler who hoped for a track scholarship for college. But like many people who settled in Vermont for generations, he was drawn to its freer and greener pastures and respected its local culture.
I went before the sportsmen of Vermont and said that I have concerns about certain types of assault weapons that have nothing to do with hunting. I believe in hunting. I will not support any legislation that limits the rights of Vermonters or any other hunters to practice what they have enjoyed for decades. I do have concerns about certain types of assault weapons.
That was not the end of his remarks. But it is worth noting that his separating the rights of traditional hunters from the concerns of police chiefs has been a constant thread in many subsequent votes he would take in Congress. Its also noteworthy that Bernie consistently has opposed assault weapons from the late 1980sbefore he was in Congresswhich he reiterated to the moderator.
http://www.salon.com/2015/10/10/what_bernies_gun_control_critics_get_wrong_partner/
Next, the 1990 debate turned to gun control. The moderator, who clearly was a Second Amendment absolutist, went after Bernieto test his mettle after Smiths about-face.
Do you support additional restrictions on firearms? Do you support additional restrictive firearms legislation? he asked. Bernie Sanders, explain yourself, yes or no?
Yes, he replied. Two years ago, I went before the Vermont Sportsmans Federation and was asked exactly the same question. It was a controversial question. I know how they felt on the issue. And that was before the DiConcini Bill. That was before a lot of discussion about the Brady Bill. That was before New Jersey and California passed bills limiting assault weapons.
I went before the sportsmen of Vermont and said that I have concerns about certain types of assault weapons that have nothing to do with hunting. I believe in hunting. I will not support any legislation that limits the rights of Vermonters or any other hunters to practice what they have enjoyed for decades. I do have concerns about certain types of assault weapons.
That was not the end of his remarks. But it is worth noting that his separating the rights of traditional hunters from the concerns of police chiefs has been a constant thread in many subsequent votes he would take in Congress. Its also noteworthy that Bernie consistently has opposed assault weapons from the late 1980sbefore he was in Congresswhich he reiterated to the moderator.
I said that before the election, he continued. The Vermont sportspeople, as is their right, made their endorsement. The endorsed Peter Smith. They endorsed Paul Poirier. I lost that election by about three-and-one-half percentage points, a very close election. Was my failure to get that endorsement pivotal? It might have been. We dont know. Maybe it was. Maybe it wasnt. All I can say is I told the sportspeople of Vermont what I believe before the election and I am going to say it again.
I do believe we need to ban certain types of assault weapons. I have taked to police chiefs. I have talked to the police officers out on the street. I have read some of the literature all over this country. Police chiefs, police officers are concerned about the types of weapons which are ending up in the hands of drug dealers and other criminals and our police oficers are getting outgunned.
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernies-gun-control-critics-are-wrong-his-stance-has-been-consistent-decades
WASHINGTON, April 17 Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) today voted for expanded background checks on gun buyers and for a ban on assault weapons but the Senate rejected those central planks of legislation inspired by the shootings of 20 first-grade students and six teachers in Newtown, Conn.
Nobody believes that gun control by itself is going to end the horrors we have seen in Newtown, Conn., Aurora, Colo., Blacksburg, Va., Tucson, Ariz. and other American communities, Sanders said. There is a growing consensus, however, in Vermont and across America that we have got to do as much as we can to end the cold-blooded, mass murders of innocent people. I believe very strongly that we also have got to address the mental health crisis in our country and make certain that help is available for people who may be a danger to themselves and others, Sanders added.
The amendment on expanded background checks needed 60 votes to pass but only 54 senators voted for it. To my mind it makes common sense to keep these weapons out of the hands of people with criminal records or mental health histories, Sanders said.
Under current federal law, background checks are not performed for tens of thousands of sales up to 40 percent of all gun transfers at gun shows or over the Internet. The amendment would have required background checks for all gun sales in commercial settings regardless of whether the seller is a licensed dealer. The compromise proposal would have exempted sales between family, friends, and neighbors.
In a separate roll call, the Senate rejected a proposal to ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. That proposal was defeated by a vote of 60 to 40.
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-votes-for-background-checks-assault-weapons-ban
Bernie Sanders voted for the 1994 crime bill because it included the Violence against Women Act and assault weapons ban:
A spokesman for Sanders said he voted for the bill "because it included the Violence Against Women Act and the ban on certain assault weapons."
Sanders reiterated his opposition to capital punishment in 2015. "I just dont think the state itself, whether its the state government or federal government, should be in the business of killing people," he said on a radio show.
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/sep/02/viral-image/where-do-hillary-clinton-and-bernie-sanders-stand-/
If he's a pro-NRA/pro-gun politician why did the NRA give him a lifetime D- rating?
Sancho
(9,070 posts)I've been in a "gun nut" family my whole life, and being from Vermont doesn't change what Bernie is doing.
Bernie is an NRA dream. The NRA makes "loud claims" just like Bernie; background checks are no problem, put the criminals in jail, don't step on the rights of local hunters. It's just powder puff.
What Bernie (and the NRA) won't do is anything that really would make a difference!! In order to possess, use, or buy a gun you should have a license! There should be waiting periods for all sales. Transportation of guns across state lines (or even other designated areas) should only happen by permit. All gun possession should require training and insurance. Background checks should not be a clerk at Walmart and a little form. It should be a serious background check - and during the waiting period there should be a real check beyond just a quickly computer search.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=4&v=YN6rjamk0Q0
http://everytown.org
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Whew, I thought you were serious for a minute there.
Sancho
(9,070 posts)but the proof is in the pudding. Name all the opponents that the NRA has funded to run against Bernie?
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2014/11/13/nra-won-over-91-percent-of-congressional-elections/
With all the numbers tallied, out of 251 races, NRA-backed candidates won in 229, over 91 percent of Congressional races in which they endorsed a candidate.
If Bernie really gets the NRA riled up, they will support someone to beat him. Shouldn't be hard in a gun-happy state like Vermont!! Instead, the NRA went after his competition.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Keep digging!
Sancho
(9,070 posts)The article is not about Hillary. It's about Bernie's dishonestly.
He didn't have to "take a dime from the NRA" to benefit from the NRA's help. I'm sure you know how the NRA helped defeat Bernie's opponent for example.
Bernie pretends to be something that he is not, and the article in the OP is a good example. There are others of course.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)We've done the whole gun nut meme before, remember?
Trying to paint Bernie as the dishonest one and me as "confused" isn't going to work.
Bernin4U
(812 posts)Bernie's votes were both consistent and correct. To try to distill it down to "for guns" or "against guns" is pea-brained. Sorry.
bigtree
(85,996 posts)...I don't find his votes on gun safety legislation as consistent as I do convenient to the politics of his home state or political pressure. I believe he's expressed how his votes relate to the wishes of gun owners in Vermont very clearly.
Bernin4U
(812 posts)And why?
bigtree
(85,996 posts)...voted against the Brady Act (repeatedly) which instituted federal background checks and a five-day waiting period.
Although Sanders recently sided with the Obama administration, voting for federal bans on assault weapons and high-capacity clips, his rhetoric on the issue contradicts the sentiment behind such legislation. In 2013 Sanders stated that, If you passed the strongest gun control legislation tomorrow, I dont think it will have a profound effect on the tragedies we have seen.
...voted to block funding to any foreign aid organization that registered or taxed Americans guns - legislation which prohibited foreign or United Nations aid to be used for gun control;
...voted for the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA), which shields the firearms industry from lawsuits related to the illegal use of their products;
Bernin4U
(812 posts)Thanks for replies. Like to continue but busy atm. First, wwhat's wrong with the last point?
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)A fucking D-. Can we stop acting like Sanders is in the pocket of the NRA? Please?
bigtree
(85,996 posts)...I don't take the guidance of the NRA on ANYTHING. The issues involved and the senator's positions on them can't possibly, credibly be defined by an NRA rating.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)They really realize that Sanders is a huge gun supporter but don't want anyone to know that until he's President?
Please.
zalinda
(5,621 posts)Bernie represented VERMONT. He voted the way they wanted him to vote. How hard is that to figure out?
Then of course, no one seems to read the entirety of a bill. If you disagree with some aspect of the bill, you have to vote no. There is no line item veto.
But, at this point in the game, any publicity is better than no publicity at all.
Z
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)That Vermont guns are better than Chicago guns.
It's a fact.
Alfresco
(1,698 posts)What do you expect from a career politician.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)Very much like the left wing NDP in Canada that worked with the Cons to bring down a Liberal government in 2006.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)On the gun issues, Sanders is too conservative for me, he has come back some on the liberal side but he is not acknowledging his votes are wrong, what do I expect from him in the future if he should become president? The gun issue is a deal breaker for me along with other positions on issues.
LexVegas
(6,060 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)And whatever his views on guns are, his position on police brutality and income inequality more than make up for it. Solving the issues that cause the gun violence in our nation, rather than just playing the shell game of banning different types of guns and parts, he wants to halt the systematic inequality that has driven gun related deaths.
In comparison, Hillary represented Wall Street (In her brief time as a legislator) which is a group of global interests,not the citizens who elected her.
bigtree
(85,996 posts)...not very revolutionary.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)The 99% of politicians that put ideals aside for pragmatism.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)While Hillary wants to maintain the status quo.
He did his job, he was representing his state, while Hillary was representing interests that aren't even in the country.
ram2008
(1,238 posts)He is center-left on the issue-- exactly where the majority of Americans and the Democratic party are.
The gun manufacture issue would have pretty much ZERO effect on gun violence or keeping guns away from people who shouldn't have it. All it would do is create a mess in court and bad some pretty bad precedent. It's a non-issue in a race where there are many other BIG issues we should be talking about.
Am I supposed to forget Hillary was Annie Oakley in 2008 when she was running against Obama?
Here let's remind everyone:
""She is running around talking about how this is an insult to sportsman, how she values the second amendment. She's talking like she's Annie Oakley," Obama said, invoking the famed female sharpshooter immortalized in the musical "Anne Get Your Gun."
Obama continued, saying "Hillary Clinton is out there like she's on the duck blind every Sunday. She's packing a six-shooter. Come on, she knows better. That's some politics being played by Hillary Clinton.
--Barack Obama 2008"