"Women reading romances are being encouraged to accept the idea

[redqueen]

that violence heightens and intensifies sexual pleasure. They are also encouraged to believe that violence is a sign of masculinity and a gesture of male care, that the degree to which a man becomes violently angry corresponds to the intensity of his affection and care. Therefore, women readers learn that passive acceptance of violence is essential if they are to receive the rewards of love and care. This is often the case in women’s lives. They may accept violence in intimate relationships, whether heterosexual or lesbian, because they do not wish to give up that care. They see enduring abuse as the price they pay. They know they can live without abuse; they do not think they can live without care."

bell hooks, Feminist Theory, From Margin To Center

[seabeyond]

1. in the 70's and 80's i could agree. and a new crop of them now. but for a couple decades,

the romance area solidly and consistently walked away from that. was unacceptable. was rape. they did not do it, at all. with the independent books, not thru publishers, we are now being barraged by this again. periodically one will break away from the pack and pr will hold it up as a must read. inevitably it is poorly written and would never past first edition with publishers.

[redqueen]

2. If women choose to eroticize their own oppression, that makes it OK!

Welcome to post-modern post-feminist post-patriarchal neo-liberal utopia!

[CrispyQ]

3. I'm really glad you started this tread.

I'm reluctant to start threads on DU cuz they land on the Greatest, but I'd like to discuss if it's possible to write a fiction story with a theme that address rape culture. This is something I'm interested in doing, but I'm not sure how to go about it. If there is a rape in the story, is that capitulating to rape culture by making rape entertainment or can it be done in a way that isn't exploitative, but focuses more on the story of the survivor? Or does all rape in entertainment contribute to rape culture? I'm always up for hearing the ideas of HOF.

on edit: There was a recent book that was popular, (or maybe a movie?) that I think some people thought did this. I think there were several threads on it at DU, but I don't recall the name of the book/movie. ???

[redqueen]

4. I was about to start one more thread and head out the door,

but I think that's a very interesting discussion and I will definitely be coming back to it.

As for any other book or movie about it, I'm not sure. Hopefully someone else will remember.

[seabeyond]

5. if you sexualize, glamorize, use to entertain, then yes. and that is what they do today and why i

oppose. if it is in the ugly that it is with nothing pretty to entertain and get men off, then i think it can be used as a lesson learned. without exploitation. and part of the character and story development. i have read in print, both. and i see it on tv. it is clearly seen and cannot be subtly hidden. it is glaringly obvious.

and yes. almost 3 minutes of explicit shots of rape in angles that glorified and sexualized her rape for entertainment in tattoo girl.

another would be generals daughter. have you seen that? and excellent movie. since you are talking writing a book, get that movie and use as research with awareness. truly, an excellent movie. but... at the point she is tied down, naked, talking to her father from her heart, about her experience at gang rape, and her fathers dismissal of her experience. a great speach she is giving him in awareness. then i started being pulled from what she was saying

her body oiled, lightening perfectly placed. shots of movement and arch in sexuality. arching of the body in a sexual movement

and i had a fuck that shit. in this horrendous and profound moment in her life, she is being shot in a sexual manner to entertain the men in the audience. that was very telling for me.

[CrispyQ]

15. "Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" - yes, that was it.

General's Daughter - I think I set that one out because of the rape scene, but I will check it out, maybe. Not sure I can watch stuff like that.

Another movie I didn't watch, but we discussed here on HOF recently, was that Jodi Foster movie with the gang rape. Someone posted how difficult that scene was for Foster, but also for all the actors. Since I didn't see it, I don't know if Hollywood turned it into entertainment for men or if came across as disturbing as it should be. I would think with Foster involved it was not sexualized. ???

[Squinch]

19. They didn't sexualize it at all. I think it was one of the few movies that

tried to show how harrowing the rape was, but also the "re-rape" of the aftermath.

[xulamaude]

6. I think it is possible to have rape in a story without it being

exploitative IF the main focus is on the life, feelings and reactions of the victim.

That the rape 'itself' is not lingered upon and described in minute (porny) detail, but the way in which the victim reacts to the world based on that victimization (ptsd...) is the core of the story.

[CrispyQ]

16. This is what I thought too, but I wanted to check with my fellow fems. -nt

[historylovr]

8. I know of several romance authors who have treated this subject

with the heroine as a rape victim, or someone close to her as a rape victim. But, it is something that happened in the past. So it can be done. I don't think, if you are not glamorizing it and focusing instead on the victim's survival and recovery, that it would be capitulating to and contributing to rape culture. It is when you sexualize rape and make it seem like not that big a deal, that you contribute to it.

[CrispyQ]

17. Thank you for your post & confirming my thoughts about it. -nt

[Squinch]

12. I absolutely think it is. This is the experience of a third of women, and rape culture

is a central theme in most women's lives whether they know it or not.

I often think adulthood for a woman comes at the moment that she realizes how prevalent it is and how she has lived in the midst of it and never knew it. I think most of us here have had that moment. It is like what they call "the scales falling from your eyes," and suddenly the world looks very different but things that never made sense before now make sense.

I think this is a literary theme that has not been explored nearly enough, and the public is ripe for learning this concept.

PS: in your description, it sounds as if you are on the right track, too. Keep us posted on your progress.

[CrispyQ]

18. Great post!

I often think adulthood for a woman comes at the moment that she realizes how prevalent it is and how she has lived in the midst of it and never knew it. I think most of us here have had that moment. It is like what they call "the scales falling from your eyes," and suddenly the world looks very different but things that never made sense before now make sense.

I went through exactly this! It was an uncomfortable & difficult period in my life, maybe even more so for my husband. Interestingly, it was getting married that triggered it. I had not thought of writing about this theme, but I will consider it. I have three major female characters, so there's lots of potential.

[Squinch]

20. Once that corner of the veil comes up, suddenly everything relates to it.

I remember being so overwhelmed by the enormity of it.

Years and years later, as my sister was going through her divorce, I watched her go through it, and was surprised that she had not realized it previously.

I think some women and many men insulate themselves from the realization, and I think that for the women it is a matter of self preservation, especially if all aspects of their lives are unconsciously built on those assumptions. For these people, once that corner of the veil is lifted, everything comes tumbling down around them.

I think that is part of the source of the anger we see in some men in response to women's rights. It is a realization of just how much they have to lose.

[Warpy]

7. Is this a trend or is it confined to one very badly written book recently popular

with dimwits? "Shades of Grey," I'm looking at you.

I've always deplored romance fiction, it's as formulaic in its own way as male directed porn is. I will say that it's a great place to develop writing chops. Some romance writers have burned out on the genre and turned to crime fiction and they are all damned funny women.

I can't see rape fiction being terribly poplar among women. There is nothing sexy about rape except the choice of weapon. It's a crime of violence and humiliation. There might be a fine line between being swept off one's feet and rape to a lot of male writers, but that line is thee. Cross it at your peril.

[seabeyond]

9. i hear that a lot, that it is simply male porn. i disagree. it is a g, pg or r rated movie.

no more. for the mainstream. then there is a new genre that is truly porn. like the 50 shades. mostly independent. but, i think it is a lame argument that many use to excuse porn, that the romance is female porn.

that being said.

i read all types. it amazes me how they categorize todays women "romance" novel. i do not see it a lot different from sanders, koontz or childs. all have relationships, all have a story that is not focused on teh sex, but all have the sex. yet, cause a female author it goes into romance.

Bodice-rippers and their contemporary counterparts were popular during the 1970s, occupying the same cultural space as the feminist movement but seeming to represent its polar opposite. As feminists were fighting patriarchy, romance novels were propping it up. Despite a major shift in the genre in the late 1980s and early 1990s that saw the near-disappearance of rape and the emergence of much stronger, more modern heroines, the idea remains that feminists and romance readers exist on opposite ends of the spectrum. This is not the case.

Dr. Jackie C. Horne, a writer, independent scholar, and author of the site Romance Novels for Feminists, says that the women who now write romance novels grew up enjoying the benefits of the feminist movement. These authors, Horne says, "take feminist ideas that were once novel, provocative, on the very edge of inconceivable for granted, as givens." In Alice Clayton's Wallbanger and Lauren Dane's Lush, both heroines are adamant that their careers not suffer in order to make a relationship work. They negotiate long-term committed relationships with men who treat them as equals. And, as is par for the course in most romance novels, these women seek out sexual pleasure and they enjoy sex. These are not the romances of the 1970s.

*

Grant sees this tension between feminist ideology and the traditionally conservative genre as a welcome challenge to feminist romance authors. "How, respecting the genre and working within its defined parameters, can I write a love story that's palatable to me?," Grant asks herself when deciding the plot for her next novel. "Are there specific trends and devices it might be worthwhile to subvert?" In Grant's first novel, A Lady Awakened, the heroine uses the hero in order to get pregnant. She is not initially interested in emotional intimacy or love. The heroine is the one taking charge of her sexuality and her future while it is the rake who we find crying about how he feels used and eventually begging his love for a long-term commitment.

Sarah MacLean is a New York Times bestselling author of historical romances including Nine Rules to Break When Romancing a Rake and her most recent release, One Good Earl Deserves a Lover. MacLean says her novels are feminist because "the heroine is the hero of the story and she is taking action." It is not that she is pushed into making a change in her life because of an outside force but rather that, "she decides her life is unacceptable and she pushes" against that. MacLean uses the heroine of Nine Rules as an example of this, saying that "at its core from the title on, [the book] speaks to the breaking of the rules I try to write into all of my books." The heroine feels that she is too old to marry, is frustrated by her boring life, and so decides to draft and complete a list of nine things that women in 1813 in England rarely get to do. She smokes, she drinks, she fences, and she kisses men.

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/03/beyond-bodice-rippers-how-romance-novels-came-to-embrace-feminism/274094/

what i have found since it is so heavily skewed toward the independent strong woman that is the focus of the story, with a real story and plot, when one of the old style writers come along, it is very noticable and very quickly seen in the writing. i dump it and write a bad review, lol. but, they are much fewer and father between. that is just not how the stories are being written now.

[historylovr]

11. I hear that a lot too, and it's just wrong. It's not porn for women.

Although I must clarify it is the love story and the happy ever after or happy for now ending that makes it a romance. Lots of guys write them too. And read them. Of course romances are not porn for women. Some don't even have more than a kiss, or more than a hand hold. And yes, some throw open the bedroom door, or wherever they are door, but even then, it's the emotions and emotional connection that takes it out of the realm of porn or even erotica. A lot of us like to read, and write, that, a relationship developing with all its emotional and physical closeness.

[seabeyond]

13. i had one, and excellent story. like superb in writing and developing. and you know what...

the woman died. she died. wrong. and he sits on a bench and pulls out an envelope a year later.

ah... tears. such a great story, but still.

that is wrong.

not suppose to end that way. i do not want, need, spend my time in sad. there is enough of that in the real world. i feel it all.

but reading your post below, you are right. maybe it is the happy ending that catagorizes cause i read a lot of authors in that section and i am not seeing what makes it that catagory.

also, i had a terrific series. much more technical. i kept thinking sure feels like written by man. but again, an excellent series on helicopter pilots. name was initials so i looked it up. a man. such a hoot. everything about it created to appear like romance to fit in that group and nothing about it was, any more than many of the stories i read.

now, that being said. koontz, sanders and childs are favorite authors too. many in the action area or mystery. i read all types.

not big on sci fi. that is about it. though i have read a couple fun authors. they seem to be more toward the sexist.

[historylovr]

10. Fifty Shades, I think, is the exception, not the rule.

It started out as a Twilight fanfic, which I think explains its initial popularity. Fanfic readers are, unfortunately, more apt to read stories with rape and dubious consent than anything else, and more often if it occurs in slash stories. I don't know why, but that's what I've observed over the years. Also, the author knew how to market it. I don't know of any romance writers that actually like it though. One I know compared it to the Ariel Castro case--you have a guy holding a woman prisoner and doing things to her that she only submits to because he is rich and handsome.

Every romance publisher I've looked at has specific guidelines--no rape for titillation, the hero can't be a rapist, and the heroine can't fall in love with him if he is. No more Luke and Laura General Hospital or The Flame and the Flower type stories.

In defense of romantic fiction, I will say that all genre fiction is formulaic in one way or another, if you analyze it. Someone wants something, something stops him or her from getting it, there is a struggle of some sort, either physical or emotional, sometimes both, and the thing desired is either obtained or not. It's just that in a romance there is usually a happy ending. I don't think there's anything wrong with that (obviously!), especially with so much darkness in the world; hope is not a bad thing. Yes, some romance authors have switched genres, either because of burnout or wanting to stretch their wings, but a more likely reason, imo, is because the genre is so looked down upon, and even though they're fantastic writers, they weren't taken seriously.

[ismnotwasm]

14. You mean "bodice rippers"?

Where the woman slowly realizes her sexual attraction to a hardcore asshole? Love then ensues?

Blech. I've read my share of urban fantasy lately that tries to overcome this tendency with sexually actualized women-- but it's rarely pulled off well.

I can recommend the "nightshift" series by Lilith St, Crow, as well as her steampunk series-- she does some very interesting gender power twists