who raises their daughter to be a prostitute?

[CTyankee]

Which would you prefer to hear your teenage daughter announce to you

"Mom, Dad, I really want to start a career in prostitution! I can make a lot of money, especially if I become a high paid call girl working for very rich men!"

vs.

"Mom, Dad, I really want to major in Feminist Philosophy and get an advanced degree! I'd like to do academic research and teach in the Philosophy Dept. at a university!"

I know I am posing this question to the wrong group here...but I think this gets to the heart of the issue of prostitution. Some DUers might do themselves a favor and ponder this question...

[Squinch]

1. I am guessing no one is going to step up here to defend their daughter's "right" to become

a prostitute.

[CTyankee]

3. which is why I posted it here. In GD it would drive somebody over the edge...

plus, my point is that who would object to their daughter announcing she was a feminist vs. a prostitute? If being a feminist is defamed as something horrible and disgusting, what then what is being a prostitute described as?

[BainsBane]

6. No shit

The rationalization going on is something else.

[CTyankee]

11. then they need to come face to face with this question and stop demonizing and slandering

feminists as some sort of "other" in our society.

[BainsBane]

12. Not a chance

The human capacity for self-deception is vritually limitless.

[CTyankee]

14. well, segregationists tried that, too, but it was overcome.

Oh, some of the old relics are still there and occasionally we hear their ugly voices, but mostly society here has moved on...

[Travis_0004]

2. I dont want my daughter to work in porn

Should we ban that too? What about strip clubs?

[CTyankee]

4. Can we talk about this thread and the question it poses?

So, which do you prefer?

[Skittles]

5. where did the op mention the word BAN?

I think the point is, legal or not it's a demeaning "profession"

[Squinch]

66. Please link to a post where anyone said anything about banning anything.

[el_bryanto]

7. You have to take the world as it is, and not as you wish it was

It's possible that if we lived in a world in which men and woman had complete equality, socially, economically, and politically, and if we lived in a world in which the destructive impulses of capitalism were blunted by strong government regulation and/or a strong and vibrant union movement, that legalized prostitution could work.

That's not the world we live in. We live in a world in which women are often treated as second class citizens and a world in which capitalism is more of the exploitative laissez faire variety. Which means it seems likely if not certain that woman would be exploited and abused in a system of legalized prostitution.

Bryant

[CTyankee]

9. and so, what is your response? Do you align yourself with reform of a system that in your

words does "exploit and abuse" women? If so, what would YOU do?

[el_bryanto]

20. I think you focus on other issues

issues that are more doable (as I think there is little chance of legalizing prostitution) and that have more beneficial effect (like incrimentally working towards improving woman's equality and revitalizing the union movement).

Bryant

[CTyankee]

21. I'm all for that but let's go further and say we should also focus and frame all of this in

Feminist ideas on the empowerment of women from the time of their birth. Enshrine it in economic populism as a "jewel in the crown" for both girls and boys growing up.

[el_bryanto]

26. What would you enshrine as the jewel in the crown? nt

[CTyankee]

35. Feminism. If people understood it for what it REALLY stands for they would be all for it.

It is the constant tirades against it by those opposing feminists that has unfairly set them back.

[hlthe2b]

8. I think when those who defend prostitution think about it, the women are the "other"...

I doubt they ever consider that they are someone's daughter, sister, or even Mother and that they and their families once had very different dreams for them and their future. That is why they cling to this vision of "regulated" and "safe" legalized systems--rather than acknowledge the exploitation and risks remain regardless and that more pleasant depiction/vision is not really realized--anywhere.

[CTyankee]

10. they have to be reminded then.

[Little Star]

16. +1

[Little Star]

15. Exactly.

[Kali]

53. I think they also have a fantasy that prostitution is all high class call girls

and further if they had occasion to interact with these independent autonomous career women, they would probably get it for free, just because they are so cool and "progressive." and studly.

[CTyankee]

58. oh, god, that's funny...and so true! (I won't elaborate).

[F4lconF16]

59. I think that also happens in discussions about porn.

Porn is not the vast majority of hateful and disgusting crap out there, it's the .1% (making that up) that is human friendly. I say human friendly as gay porn is often destructive as well.

Same thing happens in these prostitution arguments. Instead of paying attention to the reality of the situation, they prefer to believe that all prostitutes are professional escorts with the ability to blacklist clients, stop an engagement, etc.

[theHandpuppet]

13. Or their wife?

I'm sure they wouldn't mind sharing with strangers.

[CTyankee]

17. Especially if she says "Honey, it's what I want to do. Besides, I can make a lot of money!"

Can't wait to hear the husband's response to that...

[phil89]

18. So women should make major life decisions based on what other people want?

How about letting them choose their own life? Who cares what a person's parents want them to do? It's not their life.

[CTyankee]

19. OK, so answer the question.

How about answering the question I pose. Is this something you would want your daughter to announce to you as her choice of profession? And, is this what your were hoping for when you raised your daughter (if you have one)?

[phil89]

33. It doesn't MATTER what I would want for her. I just don't think that way.

It is her life, not mine. She would have her own mind, experiences and my love and acceptance would be unconditional.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

34. since it doesn't matter what you want for her, is that how you are raising her?

do you talk to her about prostitution as a viable option in the adult world of commerce?

[Half-Century Man]

22. The answer is "only someone in extraordinary financial hardship", of course.

If your choice is prostitution or starvation, which way do you go? If a parent was unable to give the child anything of lasting value, no education, no inheritance, not enough to eat on a regular basis, and a clean place to live..........

If a child of mine, regardless of sex or sexual preference, choose to work hard at becoming knowledgeable and then used that knowledge to improve the lives of anyone oppressed; to speak out against injustice. I would be insanely happy and proud.
If a child of mine, regardless of sex or sexual preference, due to the circumstances of their life was forced to or made the difficult choice to use prostitution as a means of living. I would love them regardless.

[CTyankee]

23. This isn't a question of loving them regardless. It is a question of focus.

If we accept things as they are and do not speak out against the exploitation of women, then how much do we really love our daughters? If our focus is not equally on the elevation of the status of women in our society, along with economic justice, how are we helping women?

[Half-Century Man]

30. I guess I misunderstood the OP.

I read it as equating the sex trade with the sexual equality movement, at least to the point of how each fair in public opinion. I thought that was wrong and responded a bit aggressively.

In my mind, sexual equality exists, it is a fact. I do know there are those who are so scared of their ability to compete, that they have to cheat or rig the system. These type of people generally want to reduce their competitors in any way they can except by out competing them, so they also down play the abilities of anyone different or reduce the rewards available.
I assume they know they cannot truly compete with the ones being oppressed. So, they have admitted defeat before even starting.

Hardly worth paying attention to, beyond public ridicule and exposure.
Stop playing by their rules. Get everyone else to stop.

[LanternWaste]

29. You seem to imply that economic coercion denies one a complete freedom of choice, yes?

You seem to imply that economic and/or social coercion denies one a complete freedom of choice, yes?

[Half-Century Man]

31. It can and has.

How any chose to skip higher education due to financial reasons?
How many are forced to accept employment they are not suited for (educationally, physically, emotionally, etc) because they had to fill an immediate need?

I suspect it is more common than not.

[BrotherIvan]

51. Yes

[CTyankee]

57. and...what...?

[BrotherIvan]

60. When all those in favor of prostitution argue it's "two consenting adults"

They have some silly notion of happy hooker high-paid call girls who just love some extra cash for what they would be doing anyway. Which is probably 0.0000001% of those who engage in prostitution.

When money becomes part of the equation, you are paying for, or buying off their consent. It is, in fact, coercion.

It is coercion because without payment there would be no consent. In other words, he or she would not wish to have sex.

[CTyankee]

62. Yes, I understand the issue, but what would do in response to this urgent call to

action?

[BrotherIvan]

63. I think you think I am disagreeing with you

I am not.

[CTyankee]

65. glad to have you on our side!

[BrotherIvan]

67. My username is literary

so I've always been on our side.

[MadrasT]

24. Honestly...

Honestly if it is truly a FREE CHOICE with no coercion and is among one of many options that a person could choice to pursue in attempt to support self... well, I would worry about her safety but could not do anything other than support the choice.

There is nothing inherently wrong with sex. If you just look at it intellectually, I am not sure why it can't be commodified like any other service. (Why is it worse than being a professional massage therapist for example? I don't actually think it is.)

The problem is that in threads where people want to talk about the real harms and danger and horrors that go with the vast majority of prostitution which is a result of LESS THAN 100% FREE CHOICE, the conversation gets derailed by the SEXYTIME CHOICEY-CHOICE "OH MY GOD YOU'RE SUCH A PRUDE" brigade. When for most people who are turning tricks for $$, it is anything but a free choice.

Because it's the internet.

And people like to fucking argue and beat deceased equines until the cows come home.

And SOME men think they have a God-given right to have access to women's bodies, whatever it takes, no matter who gets hurt.

How do you let the few privileged people for whom it is truly a "free choice" do that, and still protect the rest of the people who are forced or are desperate from being abused and treated like shit?

I don't know the answer to that, and it's above my pay grade, so I stay the hell out of those "discussions".

[CTyankee]

25. In answer to your last question, we should know the answer: make feminism the driving

force in reform of our economic system.

If our focus is on elevation of the status of women and the education of men and any other women who need it about feminism and what it stands for, this will help solve our problem here. Strong economic justice and strong feminist standards underlying it.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

27. I'm guessing the answer to that would be

the same parents who intend to be her pimps.

[CTyankee]

38. Of course. All the more reason to reform the system along feminist lines. right?

[CTyankee]

37. so that means me? please advise...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

39. ... lol ...

two sides of the coin is still the coin, is it not

[CTyankee]

40. Uh, I still await an answer...I am a bit in shock...I can't believe he is truly threatening me.

I just want to know what that comment means.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

41. I could be wrong but, from what I have seen him post I think he is speaking more to the ones

that are started by a certain element in GD.

[CTyankee]

43. He really wants to "punch the shit out of" me? Really?

Can't we have a dialogue without resorting to threats of physical violence? What does this say about your political/philosophical view that all you want to do is hit someone? I would call that being out of control of one's emotions. It is not good.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

46. you are in HoF ... not sure he realizes that. again I think he speaks to the element in GD ...

as for the hitting you will have to ask him.

I don't want to hit you at all.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

47. you replied to yourself here.

and I am really getting confused

[CTyankee]

50. I re-posted. sorry.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

52. is Okay. I needed this bit of diversion.

been a wild ride on here for me today. I am the one that is sorry. I did not mean to hijack your thread.

[CTyankee]

54. Naw, don't worry. I don't take these hiccups in posting too seriously...

I'm just glad you caught it! Thanks for doing that! It's great!

[CTyankee]

49. OK. I understand now that you are with us one hundred percent and I appreciate that... sorry I was

so uninformed...thank you for your support and I offer my apologies and my thanks for your support!

[safeinOhio]

32. I don't think so, but

I'd support her in what ever she decides to do.

http://www.whitehands.jp/e.html

[CTyankee]

36. If you think of yourself as a progressive, wouldn't you sign up to be a crusader for

feminism? AFter all, feminism's goal is simply a woman focused progressive dream. And men and children benefit greatly from feminism. It is not a zero sum game. Once you understand that, you can become a strong promoter of feminism.

[JI7]

42. and Who does it with their Son ?

that's right. nobody does.

but somehow when it comes to females it's supposed to be seen as some freedom and about choice.

ignoring every other fucking thing that leads most of them into that.

notice it's usually guys who are insisting there are women who love to do it .

[Tuesday Afternoon]

48. yep. and we have a winner here, folks.

thread winner. game over.

[Oakenshield]

44. Here's what I'll say on this subject.

I sorely doubt the vast majority of prostitutes, be they men or women, would have chosen such a lifestyle for themselves if they'd had better alternatives available.

[bluestateguy]

55. Probably virtually none

Because good parents raise their children to choose a career for themselves with all the attendant risks in being say, a lawyer, a callgirl, a firefighter or a professor of sociology.

[CTyankee]

56. Because I don't think a callgirl is in that category you just listed.

It sticks out like a sore thumb, doesn't it?

Now, why do you think it does?

[bluestateguy]

61. If you drive a profession underground, you get criminality and more disreputable people

Or is my body/my choice, only for abortions?

[CTyankee]

64. Yes and we are rightly talking about economic injustice here.

Just as abortion was safe for women in higher economic levels, but not for those in lower economic levels, before Roe now we see the same divide in justice for women who may turn in desperation to prostitution. The question is How do we as a society deal with this economic injustice.

My answer is to follow Feminism's prescripions for economic justice, which focuses on the well being of women in our society. And I am not the only one calling for this.

[ismnotwasm]

68. Why is that false analogy even brought up?

How about you go be a call boy and get back to me.

[ismnotwasm]

69. Junkies for one.

I know two women turned out by their mothers and a few more by their fathers. Also, Highly dysfunctional Stressed out family dynamics involving sexual abuse. It happens.

[alp227]

70. Lol. Nice strawman/pseudo situation you've framed up there.

Unless I'm ignorant I don't think it's as much parents wanting a kid to grow up to be a sex worker as opposed to instilling sex-positive values.

[CTyankee]

71. well, I was responding, in anger I admit, to the idea that the choice of going into

prostitution is just a "choice" and nothing more. AND it was in response to folks who find the title of "feminist" to be perjorative. I find nothing in feminism that is not sex-positive.