NYT: Can women have it all? And who should give it to them?

[seabeyond]

“Women of my generation have clung to the feminist credo we were raised with ... because we are determined not to drop the flag for the next generation,” Ms. Slaughter wrote. “But when many members of the younger generation have stopped listening, on the grounds that glibly repeating ‘you can have it all’ is simply airbrushing reality, it is time to talk.”

“Although couched in terms of encouragement, Sandberg’s exhortation contains more than a note of reproach,” Ms. Slaughter continued, an insinuation of “What’s the matter with you?’”

Instead, Ms. Slaughter said, the workplace needs to adapt, and women who opt out have no need to apologize.

*

Many responded with enthusiasm for Ms. Slaughter’s recommendations (more latitude to work at home, career breaks, matching work schedules to school schedules, even freezing eggs). Some defended Ms. Sandberg or expressed solidarity with their husbands, who they said feel just as much work-life agita as they do. More than a few said they were irritated by what they called outdated language (“having it all”) and a clichéd cover illustration (Baby, check. Briefcase, check).

“Irresponsibly conflating liberation with satisfaction, the ‘have it all’ formulation sets an impossible bar for female success and then ensures that when women fail to clear it, it’s feminism — as opposed to persistent gender inequity — that’s to blame,” Rebecca Traister wrote in an article on Salon.com.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/47918616/site/todayshow/ns/today-parenting_and_family/t/nyt-can-women-have-it-all-who-should-give-it-them/#.T-S8VBevhq0

[Tumbulu]

1. So interesting, I went and read the Atlantic article

and find it so good.

I think that women who work in academia have a very different idea of what the workplace demands of people in both corporate and gov jobs at the highest levels.

I found these few paragraphs interesting:

Yet the decision to step down from a position of power—to value family over professional advancement, even for a time—is directly at odds with the prevailing social pressures on career professionals in the United States. One phrase says it all about current attitudes toward work and family, particularly among elites. In Washington, “leaving to spend time with your family” is a euphemism for being fired. This understanding is so ingrained that when Flournoy announced her resignation last December, TheNew York Times covered her decision as follows:

Ms. Flournoy’s announcement surprised friends and a number of Pentagon officials, but all said they took her reason for resignation at face value and not as a standard Washington excuse for an official who has in reality been forced out. “I can absolutely and unequivocally state that her decision to step down has nothing to do with anything other than her commitment to her family,” said Doug Wilson, a top Pentagon spokesman. “She has loved this job and people here love her.
Think about what this “standard Washington excuse” implies: it is so unthinkable that an official would actually step down to spend time with his or her family that this must be a cover for something else. How could anyone voluntarily leave the circles of power for the responsibilities of parenthood? Depending on one’s vantage point, it is either ironic or maddening that this view abides in the nation’s capital, despite the ritual commitments to “family values” that are part of every political campaign. Regardless, this sentiment makes true work-life balance exceptionally difficult. But it cannot change unless top women speak out.

As an older first time mom, there was no way that I could juggle all the childrearing stuff with my former high powered work life. I had to cut way back on what I do and what I expect of myself professionally and although there are situations where one can do it all, I must say that in the real world that I live in they are few and far between. And what never gets discussed is how exhausting it is and how it is not happy making. Crazy-making at the times in life when patience, compassion and kindness are really what is called for.

[seabeyond]

2. ya. isnt that interesting.

true that they have made the spend time with family as fired. and maybe it is easier when young. we were older. and i never had the desire to try to do what i wanted with kids and continue the work i did. i was running a business. in when needed. 4, 5 latest 6 a.m. worked 14 hour days. if i had to work late, i did. i couldnt imagine not working like that and feel good about the paycheck and how to balance that with kids.

then taking care of kids for years and being out of the work place, without a degree, really.... SOL.

getting the specialized degree that gives tons more opportunity and flexibility.

[Tumbulu]

3. Here's another line I like a lot!

These “mundane” issues—the need to travel constantly to succeed, the conflicts between school schedules and work schedules, the insistence that work be done in the office—cannot be solved by exhortations to close the ambition gap. I would hope to see commencement speeches that finger America’s social and business policies, rather than women’s level of ambition, in explaining the dearth of women at the top. But changing these policies requires much more than speeches. It means fighting the mundane battles—every day, every year—in individual workplaces, in legislatures, and in the media.

[seabeyond]

4. we kinda seemed to have slid off the progressive track and reality

in the business world is they hold all the cards right now.

i agree with you.

i dont see it happening.

i was listening to something and they were saying brazil and another country (i can not remember) and a little bit of germany has refused the austerity programs. have raised minimum wage and done other things for the workers creating a flow and following the progressive path and the economies are doing well. that europe is following.

we arent there.

[Tumbulu]

5. It is so discouraging!!!!

Here is another great excerpt:

Many women of my generation have found themselves, in the prime of their careers, saying no to opportunities they once would have jumped at and hoping those chances come around again later. Many others who have decided to step back for a while, taking on consultant positions or part-time work that lets them spend more time with their children (or aging parents), are worrying about how long they can “stay out” before they lose the competitive edge they worked so hard to acquire.

[seabeyond]

6. ya... that is the tough one.

there is no ideal that i can see. i am so glad for my choices. i would not trade what i experienced for the last decade and a half for anything in the world. i learned more over the last period than i ever did in school, lol. i LOVE it. i should have gone into child development instead of business when i was in college. lol.

but, now i am stuck.

that is why i like the roles shifting and opening up. there are going ot be women wanting those careers and men that would prefer what i do.

i think it is good to have a parent around more, than what a lot of families can do.

[Tumbulu]

7. I think it is so important to have at least one parent around!

I applaud your choice!

I like this excerpt very much as it is on my mind a lot:

Juliette Kayyem, who several years ago left the Department of Homeland Security soon after her husband, David Barron, left a high position in the Justice Department, says their joint decision to leave Washington and return to Boston sprang from their desire to work on the “happiness project,” meaning quality time with their three children. (She borrowed the term from her friend Gretchen Rubin, who wrote a best-selling book and now runs a blog with that name.)

It’s time to embrace a national happiness project. As a daughter of Charlottesville, Virginia, the home of Thomas Jefferson and the university he founded, I grew up with the Declaration of Independence in my blood. Last I checked, he did not declare American independence in the name of life, liberty, and professional success. Let us rediscover the pursuit of happiness, and let us start at home.

[seabeyond]

8. where are you getting this stuff

i went into the link to see if i had missed pages, lol. i decided that long ago. if i can only get hubby to realize we can so downgrade and be even MORE happy, lol. but, i agree

[Tumbulu]

9. From this article:

Why Women Still Can’t Have It All by ANNE-MARIE SLAUGHTER

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/07/why-women-still-can-8217-t-have-it-all/9020/1/|

Which is one of the articles that your article was referring to, oops, sorry if I have gone astray.

I like the end of the piece very much

I HAVE BEEN BLESSED to work with and be mentored by some extraordinary women. Watching Hillary Clinton in action makes me incredibly proud—of her intelligence, expertise, professionalism, charisma, and command of any audience. I get a similar rush when I see a front-page picture of Christine Lagarde, the managing director of the International Monetary Fund, and Angela Merkel, the chancellor of Germany, deep in conversation about some of the most important issues on the world stage; or of Susan Rice, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, standing up forcefully for the Syrian people in the Security Council.

These women are extraordinary role models. If I had a daughter, I would encourage her to look to them, and I want a world in which they are extraordinary but not unusual. Yet I also want a world in which, in Lisa Jackson’s words, “to be a strong woman, you don’t have to give up on the things that define you as a woman.” That means respecting, enabling, and indeed celebrating the full range of women’s choices. “Empowering yourself,” Jackson said in her speech at Princeton, “doesn’t have to mean rejecting motherhood, or eliminating the nurturing or feminine aspects of who you are.”

[seabeyond]

13. to be the authentic self. and once achieved, life is really smooth

everything is really much easier.

good post

[Tumbulu]

10. and I thought of you when I read this line:

I continually push the young women in my classes to speak more. They must gain the confidence to value their own insights and questions, and to present them readily. My husband agrees, but he actually tries to get the young men in his classes to act more like the women—to speak less and listen more. If women are ever to achieve real equality as leaders, then we have to stop accepting male behavior and male choices as the default and the ideal. We must insist on changing social policies and bending career tracks to accommodate our choices, too. We have the power to do it if we decide to, and we have many men standing beside us.

Thanks for the good read and the good discussion- you are wonderful seabeyond!

[MadrasT]

11. I have been thinking since this was posted.

I was born in 1965 and grew up hearing a lot of women's lib "you can have it all now" messaging.

But "you can have it all" never meant to me that I, as one person, should actually try to have it all myself.

It meant to me that if I wanted to be a rocket scientist, I could. If I wanted to be a doctor, I could. If I wanted to be a wife and mother, I could. But not all at once.

Each woman has to decide how much of her own time-and-energy pie chart to give to each of the possibilities in her life.

I could have been a musician, I could have been a computer programmer. I chose programming because I wanted to have a good, reliable income.

Sometimes I am sad that I am not as great a piano player as I would have been if I could still spend 6 hours a day practicing piano, but I understand that making certain choices limits what else you can do.

You can't have all of everything and it is a shame that some people think they need to.

The messaging was off, maybe.

So maybe it should not have been "you can have it all". But more like, "you can *choose* from it all".

[seabeyond]

14. as one person, should actually try to have it all myself.

very good point.

i think i thought, can actually have it all. but, i know when i had my first baby i said.... hell no. not even gonna try. dont want o be no superwoman. lol. too tired and just not good enough. and that was ok by me. no pressures for me. i dont do those.

but, i like your point. that is very good.

[sufrommich]

12. "the workplace needs to adapt"

This is what needs to be done. I think it's interesting that the article focuses on married women with spouses who are equally sharing in child rearing duties when the vast majority of women who are disadvantaged in the work place are single women raising children. As long as child rearing is seen as a burden by those responsible for hiring and promoting people,these women will be competing in a hostile environment. Work places need to level the playing field so that being a woman with children isn't a factor in the job market. Day care is incredibly expensive,to the point that many single moms are making half of what those with working partners or childless people are making. Child care needs to be a benefit offered at work places in order for women to truly compete. That being said, there is no such thing as having it all, no matter what your gender.

[seabeyond]

15. i would love to have a universal childcare like

school, federally funded and ran, only for little ones. that is the biggest hurtle for those not making a lot. even the more uneducated two parent family where neither can get a job that pays much. need the second income but by the time day care is paid and other expenses was it really worth it.

i have watched so many, single and married struggling with this

[sufrommich]

16. I have too. The cost of daycare in this country

needs to be addressed,for some single parents and working class families it's an incredible burden.

[seabeyond]

17. i like the idea of a federally ran

because i think my al time highest concern are children. it may appear woman. but, the women will get thrown under the bus everytime when it comes to children. shhhh, dont tell the other feminists .

but, there is such an inconsistency with day cares. so many do nothing with the kids, for hours. they need the stimulation, connection, and push to move forward. not to mention safety. i would just prefer an option for over all consistency for parents and subsidies for those that need help. take care of our children and so many of our issues will be on their way to resolving. plus, it is the right thing to do.

[Hatchling]

18. Think how freeing this would be to men as well.

Ms. Slaughter’s recommendations (more latitude to work at home, career breaks, matching work schedules to school schedules,

When I was working accounting, so much of my time was taken up with bullshit stuff from management or interruptions from other workers. If I could have telecommuted I could have finished my work in decent time and the time consumed by others would have been mine to do with as I pleased. I could have even taken on more projects and still had more leisure time.

I think that corporations are a bullying environment and they need you there in person so they can beat you into their mold. Men and women in business are stressed out with so much pressure to conform, compete, and deny any outside life from the corp. that their lives become dysfunctional.