History of Feminism
Related: About this forumwomen, please tell your experience. some men do not get it. 19, 10pm, college campus
Last edited Tue Aug 7, 2012, 07:47 PM - Edit history (1)
after a night class i am walking out to my car and no one is around. i had parked in a far off parking lot without thought. walking to my car, a guy walks up besides me and starts talking, hitting on me. i didnt know who he was, never saw him before. i was really uncomfortable, looking around for other people. there was no one. i am trying to appease him in niceness (what us girls were taught), but, also make it clear that i have no interest. he follows along. he will not go away. as i walk further and further to isolation. i think, do i need to turn around and go back to people. would i be able to. do i hurry to my car. scream? i have keys positioned to fight off (like that would do any good). as i continue to walk quickly to the car.
i get in the car, and he holds the door open, and continues to talk.
there is not mutual interaction.
once i got the door shut, and locked i thought geeez..... i did that all wrong. i was totally setting myself up for trouble. my bad.
lucky me he was not thinking violence or rape.
i guess he assumed since he wasnt, i should know he was not. that is not what happens guys. you know you are not going to do anything wrong. a girl/woman does NOT know. and you put them in a really, not cute and fun, uncomfortable, scary position.
so, when you ignore a womans concern, shrug it off, make jokes about it, it really says a lot about how receptive to women you truly are.
i can not believe that grown men do not get it, in this day and time. but, obviously some men do not. i have many stories since i was single a lot of years, and refused to stay locked up in my house once it turned dark. i played with the others, late at night until early in the morning, living in reno, nevada. i am sure most women have a story to tell.
can you share your story, please.
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ismnotwasm
(41,989 posts)Last edited Tue Aug 7, 2012, 09:31 PM - Edit history (1)
I don't drive, --I hate driving-- my husband picks me up and drops me off. Where I work, parking isn't great, (still expensive though) so there is couple of blocks walk to get to the parking garage. There is a security escort available for the nurses getting off work late evening, early morning. Now we know nursing is a female dominated profession. Generally, security isn't offered for male dominated professions as far as I know, no matter what the parking situation is.
So precisely because of the very obvious fear women have to live in, men that 'don't get it' are perhaps a split hair short of sexual predation. That man was stalking you as far as I'm concerned. My husband agrees with me, he says it's creepy and that man was lucky you didn't call the police on his ass.
(For the record, I carry a cheap razor and have for years. If attacked, my plan is cause enough pain to get away and run like hell. Cheap razors break easily, so are less likely to be used against me)
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)if felt as if he was a predator and probably why i reacted the way i did. it was powerful enough that i can remember all of it, all what i felt, so long after. it also taught me to make a lot of adjustments in the choices i made later in life. i never wanted to experience that again.
ismnotwasm
(41,989 posts)It's messed up You carry that memory, it's messed up I think I need to carry a razor, it's messed up that nurses need security to get them safely to their cars, it's messed up that some men don't 'get' it.
My husband often feels protective, which is kind of cute, since I've always been able to hold my own, (and have excellent creepdar) Part of it is his own insecurities, but a larger part is his awareness of the sense of danger women are forced to live in. Sometimes his creepdar is better than mine.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)would carry a razor because she has to consider the weapon being turned on her.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)The power had gone out in my apartment. As I'm leaving for work I see him rounding the corner and ask was it out in his, too. He apparently interprets this as an invitation to follow me (waaaay too closely) to my car, ask me a bunch of unwelcome questions - including who I live with - and lean on my open car door as I'm trying to get the Fuck away from him.
Note that all I wanted to know was if his power was out, too, and after he said so I showed exactly ZERO interest in pursuing any further conversation.
This is why women learn to not even fucking make eye contact. So yeah, they can feel free to yell after me that I'm a stuck up bitch for ignoring them. I don't give the smallest fraction of a Fuck what they think.
And that was just the last one where I felt threatened. Garden variety sexual harassment is another issue.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)Because I have pre-emptive tactics that prevent it. (See end of post.)
Where it still happens to me, all the time, is with acquaintances.
Somehow making eye contact and acting friendly in any way is interpreted as "she probably wants to fuck me". Which leads to inappropriate touching and aggressive efforts to convince me I really want to fuck them. Even after I clearly say "No, thank you, I am not interested in having sex with you." I have met very few men who can take "no" for an answer. Hearing "no" almost always leads to amped up efforts to try to change my mind and convince me using one of the following tactics:
- Yes, I really do want to have sex with them (come on, it's not so bad!!!)
- I should have sex with them because they are nice guys
- They are tired of hearing no from women (pout) and therefore I should pity-fuck them
- They deserve to have sex and somehow it's my job to help them out with that because I'm a nice person
- I am obligated to have sex with them because I have (or had) a certain type of relationship with them
- I am obligated to have sex with them because I did it one or more times before
What part of "NO" is hard to understand?
This kind of manipulation IS NOT OK.
NO means NO.
Anyone who has ever tried this on me has been eliminated from my circle and is at best an arm's length friend now. I won't fucking stand for this crap.
With strangers, I have a very strong "fuck off and leave me alone" shield. I honestly don't get bothered in this way by random men. I also dress and present myself in a way to draw as little attention to myself as a female as possible.
What is sad is that I feel like I have to wear that "fuck off" shield and walk around in clothing that camoflauges my femininity in order to feel safe in the world.
And then I hear the same men (and others) complain about how "women" are cold, standoffish, and won't make eye contact, and they wonder why...
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i am gonna do a little reflecting on it. i love
Yes, I really do want to have sex with them (come on, it's not so bad!!!)
I should have sex with them because they are nice guys
They are tired of hearing no from women (pout) and therefore I should pity-fuck them
They deserve to have sex and somehow it's my job to help them out with that because I'm a nice person
I am obligated to have sex with them because I have (or had) a certain type of relationship with them
I am obligated to have sex with them because I did it one or more times before
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)- You need to let loose and learn to have fun once in a while, you're too uptight!
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)at first when just trying then i am a hesitant virgin. when standing steadfast, it must be cause i am a lesbian. then when i date another.... slut.
i had a man actually use the words and go thru the scenario and it had me busting up.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)- What's the big deal? It's just sex. You're making way too big a deal out of it.
Ummmm.... no. I'm not the one whining, manipulating, and begging for it.
"No means no" is pretty simple.
Jesus I hate it that men think it's my fucking job to provide them with a place to put their dicks.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that is so fuckin funny. you know, this is letting me know how consistently we live, in things i have not even thought about.
thru a couple experiences in life, i learned a very firm and formidable no.... that most all men got.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)I used to worry about hurting their feelings and try to be kinder. But that just led to more manipulation and whining.
I am pushing 50 and my "nice" is all used up.
(Thank God I have also had some awesome men in my life to balance it out.)
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that is exactly it. what we have to teach our girls. what i have SHOUTED to my two nieces in some of their experiences. i tell them they had better damn well get mad and speak out. lol. NO bowing head and taking it.
i hear ya.
then, like crispy q belows post... you get a "you fuckin bitch"
yup
CrispyQ
(36,478 posts)That reminds me of that great scene in "Clueless" where Alicia Silverstone's friends find out she's a virgin & are teasing her about it. She responds, "Guys, you see how picky I am about my shoes & they just go on my feet!"
That might be a good line to throw back at that comment! 
Somehow making eye contact and acting friendly in any way is interpreted as "she probably wants to fuck me".
I believe, with the media's influence, the boys-will-be-boys mentality that we've all been conditioned to accept, has become a monster & given the patriarchy a bloated sense of confidence - hence, congressional hearings about women's health without any women on the panel & the rest of the War On Women.
Couple that with a culture that condones adults behaving like two year old brats & a population that abhors reason & you have the cesspool we call American culture.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)this is a very good post. agreed. at all cost, have no expectation of the "boy will be boy"
caseymoz
(5,763 posts). . . that if you're not saying yes, it's because they aren't trying hard enough. Really, that's the mentality. That's especially bad if they've experienced some sexual success and think they've figured out "the move" and try it on another woman and, guess what? It doesn't work. Then they're thinking, "Why isn't this working? It worked on Amy." Then they're left standing there with egg on their face, trying harder, getting frustrated, and saying all kinds of mean, embarrassing and pathetic things. Meanwhile, they treat the female like a soda machine that just stole their change.
The problem really is that males don't try to understand it from the female's POV. In the awful old days, guys, used to say you can never understand a woman. That's not said aloud very often these days, but guys believe it. As a result, they don't even try. They don't even look, and they end up with a lot of anger against women as a result.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Yep.
No consideration for her as a person, with her own thoughts and feelings and desires (for someone else, whom she is actually attracted to).
I get so sick or all the bleating about the so-called 'friend zone'. If a woman thinks she might like you, then after getting to know you, she changes her mind, that just means it didn't work out. Guys should grow up and deal, rather than make up stupid fantasies about why they didn't get the sex they consider so paramount.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and
No consideration for her as a person, with her own thoughts and feelings and desires
not really nice guy material and kinda shows the womans discriminating ability. that alone tells a woman to go away, as he fights harder for her to accept. it is all weird
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)When they don't consider it productive to try to understand a woman or read her body language; when they think success is primarily a matter of motivation and confidence. Those aren't weird. I mean, those are both in our culture, generally.
As I hinted at, though, when men close themselves off from trying understand women, they pretty much have to shut their own brain down in the presence of females. Of course then the guys will feel frustrated and angry at women, because, aside from sex, female companionship will bore them. They're going to see women as shallow, because the men are in the habit of ignoring things that would tell them otherwise. Guys you see in their 20s have already progressed through this in high school, and they're probably well out of their "nice guy" phase.
Also, when they see it simply as a matter of their trying harder and not being such a quitter, then they think they're really dealing only with themselves. If they can only show how much they desire the woman, and find the right "hack," they'll be successful.
It doesn't help when they don't realize how unattractive this approach is to women (and I know I'm understating this). It permanently kills off any desire on her part. It has nothing to do with how she'd like or not like to feel. It's like nausea, an almost instinctive reaction, and impossible to reverse.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)caseymoz
(5,763 posts). . . and racial privilege. I can see that. I'll add though, it definitely looks worse to me in the upper classes than in the middle and lower classes. Men in the lower classes don't see how they could possibly be privileged, not comprehending how their lives would be different without it. Fear of losing what little they have will keep them from pondering it. They see it as an attack.
It's other feminist/sociological terms such as "patriarchy," "exploitation" and "objectification" I find defective, this example of notwithstanding. Though I used the soda machine simile, I don't think objectification describes it adequately, and is misleading.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that is exactly what was done and culture teaches our boys this. and a parent teaches the children of both gender what culture is doing to them and be aware. and then it cannot be done.
why do you think the man sees himself, his need and his sexuality as all important and the woman as nonexistent but for his wants? that is our society conditioning this because this is what they are told their position is and womens position is from day one.
entitlement. the en are taught that they are entitled to that woman. she being a thing to take care of him and his needs. he is not called to do that, anywhere in his life. he is taught he is not capable. he is taught that is not being a man.
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)In the case I gave, he just doesn't want to deal with her. I'll reiterate, mostly because he doesn't think he could understand her. Or at least, that's how I think it starts out.
That's an important distinction. This is true in areas like rape or battering where we're told the motive is to objectify a woman.
My doubt about that description is simple: men don't treat objects like that. People in general don't treat objects like that. There's no point in hurting unless you know it's a person that feels pain. What "object" has those qualities? I'll point out also, except for a few perverted individuals, men don't "rape" objects unless the objects are made to look like women, or the man could pretend it's a woman.
Now back to the present example: The guy in question wasn't objectifying you. If he had been, he wouldn't have talked to you to begin with. (BTW, discussion and persuasion are the worst possible ways to treat somebody as an object, IMHO.) He wouldn't seek some minimal level of consent with you, one that fulfills whatever poor level of sexual ethics he's holding. Period. His persuasiveness might be shit, but you don't try to persuade an object.
When I said he treats like a soda machine, I meant in the sense that he's denied when he feels he did all the right things, that he doesn't read her any better than a broken soda machine, and he's frustrated . . .
I'm up too late. Excuse this if this post isn't completely clear. I need sleep now.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)side of the brain. what he uses. he does not use the part of the brain where there is empathy and sees a human, ect.... but a thing to use. a tool, to use
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Men were also more likely to associate images of sexualized women with first-person action verbs such as "I push, I grasp, I handle," said lead researcher Susan Fiske, a psychologist at Princeton University.
And in a "shocking" finding, Fiske noted, some of the men studied showed no activity in the part of the brain that usually responds when a person ponders another's intentions.
This means that these men see women "as sexually inviting, but they are not thinking about their minds," Fiske said. "The lack of activation in this social cognition area is really odd, because it hardly ever happens."
And the men who scored higher as "hostile sexists"—those who view women as controlling and invaders of male space—didn't show brain activity that indicates they saw the women in bikinis as humans with thoughts and intentions. Scientists have seen this absence of activation only once before, in a study where people were shown off-putting photographs of homeless people and drug addicts.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/02/090216-bikinis-women-men-objects.html
i also believe that the explanation that the more men use porn, activating this process often can consistently create this mentality
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)Initially I'll point out if it's a reaction (or a lack of one) also associated with off-putting photos of drug addicts and homeless, it could be on the unconscious level the subject of the photo immediately scores so low on the status scale that the unconscious mind doesn't even calculate any risk/reward possibilities in interacting with them. That wouldn't be responding to them as an object. That would be somewhat worse: responding to them as though they were human but didn't matter at all.
Now, I would be interested in having this team repeat the experiment, but with women looking at pictures of women and seeing if there's any significant difference. It's quite possible that it's just an indication that women showing overt sexuality automatically score below zero in status with some people, male or female, and the reaction is deep-seated. I already suspected that. BTW, men who look at porn score just about that low too, IMO.
One upshot when a person is that lacking in status is: people disrespect you so much they won't even care if they tell you the truth. It's also a dangerous position to be in because they won't even care if they hurt you.
I'd also like to see if this reaction is persistent. That is, do this experiment, but then follow it by having the person actually meet the woman and talk to her. See how they react then, see if and how the brain activity changes. Then we could get to the bottom of what it means.
That's just one guess. This may rather be the best evidence for objectification so far. I'll have to study it more closely this weekend and let you know.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)yes this would be interesting. and i would imagine it would probably prove out. hence, when the younger feminist say it is empowering, most all us women know it is not true.
and
and i would really like to see something like this done. one of the things in this study, when fully clothed, they then thought of woman on the part of brain that interacts with a sister, mom, wife. as a human. i have for a long time recognized this. it is very hard to explain, and men mock and sneer. but, this is really in essence what women are talking about when talking the male gaze. i am nt a shy person. for a lifetime i have interacted regularly with people in the public world. very perceptive and feeling another. will get any number of peoples life story in matter of minutes. what i recognize is there really is a "look" from men that is not a woman being a person but a thing. that look is clear. i know men do not believe it. it is when they disconnect and are looking at a woman as a thing. it can easily be recognized and felt. so when women are discussing the "gaze" it is not about not finding a woman attractive yet seeing her as a person and interacting as such, .... it is when a man, a stranger we do not give a flying fuck about, takes ownership of our sexuality for that moment.
i have played with this. when i am in a position where i am seeing it too much, or something gets me pissed, i will turn that look on the man. and he will respond the same as women do. he will disconnect eye contact, look down or away. different from a reaction of looking at a human and the feel of the interaction.
it is very interesting, so yes, i would like to see a study like you suggest.
i would guess that once there is an interaction, IF the woman did not project being a "thing" to be used, then the man would no longer put her in that catagory. or.... by her behavior, reinforces that position
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)"showing overt sexuality automatically score below zero in status with some people, male or female,"
It's definitely not true relative to some people, some men, and possibly women. However, I think the males who argue that it's empowering are not the same men who react this way, and possibly, would find this quite unimaginable. The ones who react this way are the possibly the ones more likely to call her a slut or whore. I don't know that they would try to rationalize extreme sexual displays.
As for women who make the argument that it's empowering, fact is, arousal and the ability to induce it feel powerful. I've argued on the Men's Board, however, it's not a feeling that often translates into any real power. Calling it a thrill would be more accurate. But I think to those women, it does feel powerful.
And I still don't know from this article exactly what behavior this neurological phenomenon is associated with. What does a person do exactly when they lack this reaction. I know suggestions are that it can't be good.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)More eating disorders, more steroid abuse, more plastic surgery procedures...
Based on what you've read so far, do you think anyone has any reason to pretend that objectification is a myth, that it should be mocked, and that it shouldn't be a matter of concern to women (and increasingly men, as well)? Is objectification and the struggle to address it as the cause of various problems one that you would expect to see mocked and ridiculed on a progressive discussion board?
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:06 AM - Edit history (1)
Quite presumptuous, if not offensive, to say pretend.
Frankly, I find the concept hard to hold on to, not because something isn't happening, but because "objectification" doesn't describe it clearly enough, misleads about it, and therefore becomes a catch-all term. I'll tell you what I told Sea, and that is the person knows and doesn't deny that it's a human being, they don't deny that they are inflicting pain or anguish, and if they treat a person as an object, it's because to inflict misery and turmoil. That's not how anybody treats an object, and that's not why people treat an object as one.
And Sea told me I was being too literal, which was exactly my point. It can't describe what it's supposed to describe.
I tried to bring this up before: if a male fantasizes about a female, that is puts her into scenes in her head consenting to sex she wouldn't consent to, he may be doing other things, but he's not turning her into an object. He's giving her image a personality that consents to having sex with him. (Fantasizing about rape is a different subject.)
If you have movie, not Hollywood just film, it's impossible to put anybody on the screen without sexualizing them. Actually, I guess it's possible, but nobody would watch it. So, always the person who's portrayed on the screen has to be more attractive than average, just to keep attention, just to tell people on an instinctive level that this performer is someone you should be looking at. Whether it's a man or woman, that's the fact. In the thirties and forties, when they couldn't have nudity in films, they found a much more harmful way of flourishing attractiveness, turning people on, and hinting at sex: smoking.
Unfortunately, some people are going to compare their beauty to those on the screen and find themselves lacking. Women especially suffer from this because the templates for beauty from males is so stereotyped and identifiable. I don't know what you can do to prevent this but make the technology itself illegal. Or remedy the self-esteem issues as they arise.
And that's just movies. The same thing applies to photography. Plus, you might not believe this, but attractive people frequently want to be seen. Photographers aren't objectifying somebody. They're capturing and using the person's image. An actor on the screen plays a person, not a thing.
"Now that men are being portrayed as sex objects"? Have all copies of Playgirl fallen into the memory hole? Please tell me what image of manhood you see being universally promoted? I don't see enough ads to say. If it's anything as specific and stereotypical as for women: large breasts, toned legs, thin body, with proportion and a shapely derriere, white and blond, please point it out for me. So far, I don't see it.
The plastic surgery, I've already said, can be explained by aging, not anything like objectification. Steroid abuse can be attributed partially to athletics and partially to the penis size/performance problem I've already mentioned-- a very clear stereotype of attractiveness. As for eating disorders, men are becoming obese, and the problem, and the food leading to it, have become bad enough that males would take desperate measures to avoid them. No I don't think it's going to be the same as for women.
Male use of cosmetics would be better proof. The best would be to identify the ad campaigns and demonstrate that a certain behaviors among male are correlated with them.
Now if you find all I've said pretending, you have to admit, it's a damn elaborate fantasy. One that might as well be treated like a belief.
Response to caseymoz (Reply #106)
redqueen This message was self-deleted by its author.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)is treated as if it's existence and the fact that it is done to women all the goddamned time is bullshit, or even debatable.
I can't get past those first few lines. I might try to come back to this but I don't know if I have the patience.
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)Purgatory, for instance, is also an old, well-established concept.
Only well-established for true believers. That is, if you accept the rest of the system, objectification is a snap, I'm sure.
Soft-sciences are full of debatable concepts, things that aren't scientifically established, or that are supported by fatally flawed studies or experiments, that, in fact, have all the the scientific validity of tarot cards. Accepting the concepts without question can be socially harmful. I point to Satanic Ritual Abuse as an example. There are others: such as the fact that the only Nobel Prize ever given for psychiatry was for the frontal lobotomy.
You simply can't put objectification next to evolution, gravitation or relativity. It's just not at that level of credibility.
Old does not equate to more valid. People believed the solar system was geocentric for 1500 years. To me, an old concept is medieval.
I didn't know my posts were difficult for you to read. I thank you for your patience, then. Sincerely.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Difficult for me to read? LOL
Thanks for the snark. I won't bother wasting any more time attempting to engage with you.
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)That was meant as a straight example, but I didn't know you were so dismissive. Purgatory is just as real for people in the Catholic faith. It's still a doctrine of the RCC now. Look it up. You'd call it a myth. They wouldn't. They say it's absolutely logical and the truth. Devout Catholics would be insulted that you'd dismiss their bedrock belief as myth so blithely. I have, but at least I know it's insulting and know they don't regard it as myth.
I just talk to much. I should have allowed you time to read what I wrote prior, but after days of holding it, I guess I'm compensating and a little too loaded with energy.
Or perhaps our personalities just clash.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Difficult to tolerate, yes.
Your attempts to trivialize objectification by saying crap like 'well men don't treat women like chairs' (or whatever way you tried to obfuscate the issue) are really hard to interpret as a genuine attempt to understand anything. It cones across as ridicule. If you want to understand there are dozens of sources in the fields of sociology, psychology, history, etc. Or you can stick with ... whatever it is that's portraying objectification the same way right wingers portray global warming.
You've clearly made your mind up. I just hope there aren't many democrats who so fundamentally disagree with established fact.
As for me, I'll side with NOW, decades of research, and feminists.
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)I've been in the state where I didn't have the patience to read what people posted to me, because it pissed me off, and at least few times that happened, I described myself in exactly with the "insulting" words I gave you.
There's a difference between right wingers with Global Warming and this. That is, Global Warming is valid. It's been demonstrated time and again. Most indicators across more than a half-dozen disciplines with valid data point to it. Not true of objectification. And soft-sciences aren't reliable enough, their researchers have their own agendas, and have their own separate jargon, so there's no way to even know if they're talking about the same thing. What you have with objectification is a psychological hypothesis. It can only be neurologically verified then correlated to certain behaviors. We're not there, yet.
The right wingers are also portraying Global Warming just the way biologists would portray Creationism. That doesn't mean Creationism is true. In fact, maybe it reminds you more of it because it's the way anybody would portray a questionable concept. That doesn't mean biologists are being unfair. Whether it's "the same way right-wingers portray global warming" is irrelevant to whether objectification is a valid concept or not.
I question objectification, also, when it comes to warfare and genocides, but I don't question de-humanization. Belligerents may consider the other side into sub-human animals, may project all kinds of insulting fantasies as to what they're like, and why they're less than human. In Borneo, there were tribes where the word for someone outside the tribe was the same as "animal." That's different from turning them into objects. In most cases, they want the victim to know their status is that low. They want to induce terror. That's not what you communicate to objects. Even Himmler sent an order telling the Concentration Camps to slow down (Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism) that they were killing people too fast. He wanted the victims to experience being de-humanized. In rape, it's probably necessary to negating the person's consent.
And objectified or de-humanized definitely doesn't describe normal sexual fantasies.
zazen
(2,978 posts)and to me they're perfectly consistent with the radical feminist anti-pornography critiques with which I'm familiar.
I don't think he's trying to trivialize objectification at all.
There's this concept of "theory of mind"--what some say is where we begin to differ as human toddlers from the other primates (though that's debatable). It goes to our belief that someone else has a perspective, has an inner life, and our drive/behavior/motivation to understand that for whatever reason.
Knowing that someone has an inner life, and speculating as to what that is, is not synonymous with empathy. In fact, it can be the basis of sociopathology. I've always personally maintained that sociopaths and autistics are polar opposites in terms of theory of mind and empathy.
Think Michael Corleone--GREAT theory of mind. Ability to understand what someone else is thinking in order to strategically manipulate it. Zero empathy. Sadistic sociopaths in fact _enjoy_ wallowing in the pain they think someone is experiencing. They are quite aware that their victim is a "subject"--the thrill is reducing that subject to an object (a tool) while the SUBJECT KNOWS IT.
Asperger's sufferers (don't know about autistics), however, from what I've read and my limited experience, have poor theory of mind. The idea that someone else is thinking something differently than they are rarely occurs to them. When it does, however, and they realize they've hurt someone, they're often terribly upset. It's not that they mean to hurt people-it's that they don't know the ways in which people can get hurt.
Men who sexually violate (across the continuum) are getting off on the fantasy that a woman is seeing them the way they want to be seen, and experiencing herself the way he wants her to experience herself. Hence, an acknowledgement of subjective production on the part of the woman is _essential_. But then a narrative is projected onto her.
Now, all humans fail to fully get someone else's inner experience--that's the primary moral and ethical challenge of our lives--so we all project to greater or lesser degrees. It's the systematic projection by most males onto most females of a particularly distorted, narcissistic fantasy that's the problem.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Sociology 101 courses have covered the material for years. Many psychologists have studied the practice and its effects.
Why the constant confusion about it? Where does it come from?
zazen
(2,978 posts)and I'm certainly not confused. However, the concept of "objectification" is a complex one, about which additional scholarship raises new questions. As feminist scholarship (and scholarship in many fields) proceeds, new questions and nuances are raised. Old assumptions are challenged. This doesn't make that process inconsistent with feminism.
I am confused about what you're concerned about here. Perhaps I've misread things upstream?
Great discussion, though. Best--
redqueen
(115,103 posts)because men don't treat objects that way.
Is there some aspect of objectification theory which has changed enough to make that argument anywhere near coherent? From my reading, that displays a complete lack of understanding of the concept.
What changes have been accepted and recognized as time has passed since this stuff was first theorized and discussed? I'm fairly sure that they'll be more rational than stuff along the lines of, 'well men don't want to Fuck chairs so therefore women are not objectified by men.'
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)not think we are talking about wanting to fuck a chair.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)Gah, don't get me started on those sick, twisted creeps.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)certainly is not ALL, let alone majority of men.
but, yes. that is exactly it. so then we have to ask, what in the boys development allowed him to get to this place. cause i have to tell you, in my boys development, they are not even close, kinda, sorta, this guy. and they wont. cause in our house, a female is actually a person.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)and not even all men who get sucked into the PUA crap. But that shit is so toxic. They really should divide it into two things. One nasty pit for pick up artists and then a separate group for sharing helpful tips for shy men who recognize that women are people and treat them as such.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)this is when they get to have an out on their behavior because it is just men. and this is me calling that out saying not only is it NOT all men, it is not the majority of men. not allowing the scape goat of excuses for behavior.
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)To guys, female sexual attraction is totally capricious and inscrutable. Here's what I mean: when a man is physically attracted to a woman, most guys can see what features are attractive. In other words, heterosexual males are more on the same wavelength. The physical features desired are somewhat stereotypical. I mean, T&A, legs, proportion or "curves," and so on.
Guys don't see anything like the same behavior from women. When a woman's physically attracted to a guy, men can't see what's doing it, penis jokes notwithstanding. They conclude that nothing is doing it. The net effect: they think women are flexible about it, when, no, female sexual attraction is actually nothing like that. There may be no gender-wide templates for attractiveness with women, but you do each do have a standard for it.
If a you're not attracted to a guy, there's nothing you can do about it. For a woman to have sex with him anyway will not just be poor sex, but she may just despise him afterward, and he'll despise her for being a disappointing lay.
I could almost agree, except I don't think it's a matter of making up fantasies. It's more a matter of having a wrong interpretation of reality in adolescence, and then mistrust and anger that grows as a result, leading to suspicion and rage that then makes the thought-error almost impossible to re-examine.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)heterosexual males are somewhat stereotypical"
Yes, Hollywood and Wall Street make sure we all know.
I'm sure that's biologically driven, though.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)It's high time we take our spooky ol' patriarchy theories to Creative Speculation.
Patriarcy Deniers are a curious lot.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I'm embarrassed for people who apparently manage to get through college level courses in sociology without managing to develop an understanding of the concepts involved. And I'm talking sociology 101 stuff.
I guess if you have a lot invested in not understanding it, though...
ismnotwasm
(41,989 posts)The information is out there. I would think one at least get the basics right.
Response to MadrasT (Reply #38)
caseymoz This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to caseymoz (Reply #71)
MadrasT This message was self-deleted by its author.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)I have enjoyed your contributions to this thread, and I have no interest in getting into a discussion about the existence and manifestations of patriarchy.
How about we leave it at that?
* Edit to add: I am guessing you thought I was talking about you because I wrote a reply to redqueen in which she was replying to you. My comment to redqueen was a random snark and was unrelated to what you wrote.
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)I'm deleting that post.
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)Last edited Fri Aug 10, 2012, 03:17 AM - Edit history (1)
because it's easy to do. They can identify physical features guys generally desire. They can't do this very much with women. Their attraction toward physical features and qualities are all over the map. In the few cases where women's desires for physical features can be identified (or are thought to be), men are just as desperate to meet them as women are with buying cosmetics. Take the sale of hair restoratives for one. Or for penis enhancers (one that men think women desire.)
They can't sell too many such things to men, because there are very few stereotypes for attractiveness that enough of the female gender impose on the male one.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I'm sure their tastes just evolve faster than women's.
I'd be curious to see an evolutionary psychology theory for how men's taste for small breasts way back when 'evolved' to a taste for huge ones now.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)boobs to entice the male as the bend over butt did before hand so he wanted frontal intercourse. cause they would not have wanted sex otherwise? and feeding was an after thought?
boobies. lol. 
caseymoz
(5,763 posts). . . that large breasts are attractive because they look like buttocks. If so, why is seeing the nipples so desirable?
Actually, breasts began to grow in human females for a more, basic survival reason, one that has nothing to do with sex. Human babies have flat faces. A gorilla has a longer muzzle and a protruding mouth, with nostrils set behind the mouth. That mouth allows them, as infants, to suck on a nipple that's flat to the female's chest.
Now look at our faces. A human baby sucking on a flat chest brings the nose flush against a woman's body. The infant can't feed and breathe at the same time.
So, breasts started to grow because our faces shrank. Now, why they continued to grow is another matter entirely.
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)To some degree. Genetic expression responds to the environment.
But the next questions about an animal formed from particular genes, such as a human being should be: 1) How easy can an animal formed from particular genes learn a specific behavior? (So, easily it can perhaps be learned accidentally?) 2) How difficult then is this behavior to suppress or unlearn? 3) In a particular environment, can certain learning be prevented? 4) Is there a morally acceptable way to do 2-4?
I'll pose the question like this: if they could get men to spend massive amounts on cosmetic surgery, don't you think they would? I mean the purported patriarchy hasn't stopped the upper class from exploiting lower-class men on other things, why not this? Maybe they can convince men that women desire flaring nostrils and high foreheads against all evidence, and convince women through the media to actually prefer those traits.
However, it at least doesn't appear possible with just ad and marketing campaigns alone. Maybe abducting people and doing operant conditioning while disguised as aliens, but not with advertisements and movies.
The point of genes combining together is that they're supposed to give adaptation to environments, including social structures. They're supposed to give alternatives to animals, not limit them. But no individual can adapt to all possible environments, because there's always a limit to how many genes an organism can carry and express. Even so, where people outside biology see genetics as determinism, biologists do not see it that way, including about sex genes.
I don't have anything but my own guesses about men's varying preferences for breast size. (If you ask me, any such study in this social atmosphere would have trouble receiving funding and being taken seriously.) However, I do know of other examples of variance in male tastes where the biology of it is known. When food is abundant, men prefer thinner women. When food is scarce, they prefer heavier ones.
Also, we do get a biased report of those preferences. A hypothetical example. Suppose it were socially favored in the upper classes that women have smaller chests, mainly because large, semi-exposed breasts were considered the hallmarks of lower-class prostitutes (thus, men of refinement would show their civilized tastes by choosing smaller chested women). The men who expressed their sexual preference would probably be too contemptible to mention openly, so the records we see are going to show that flatter chests were in, when actually, it has little to do with what men preferred sexually.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)New ASPS Statistics Show Sizeable Increases in Facelifts and Other Surgical Procedures for Men
1. Facelift - 14% Increase
2. Ear Surgery (Otoplasty) - 11% Increase
3. Soft Tissue Fillers - 10% Increase
4. Botulinum Toxin Type A - 9% Increase
5. Liposuction - 7% Increase
6. Breast Reduction in Men - 6% Increase
7. Eyelid Surgery - 4% Increase
8. Dermabrasion - 4% Increase
9. Laser Hair Removal - 4% Increase
10. Laser Treatment of Leg Veins - 4% Increase
http://www.plasticsurgery.org/news-and-resources/press-release-archives/2011-press-release-archives/men-fuel-rebound-in-cosmetic-surgery-.html
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)All of the procedures there are remedies to age-related features or obesity, except possibly for the otoplasty. We have a massive percentage of our male population passing their mid-fifties. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about mass marketing plastic surgery to men in their prime, hetero men, the way it's done with women.
And the above procedures have all been pioneered with women, for whom those numbers are probably going up at an even greater rate because many of them are beyond midlife, too. Sorry, I can't give you a point for this one. I'm talking about young, healthy men, who aren't obese, getting cosmetically altered to meet female criteria of beauty. A growing market for age-mitigating plastic surgery is not evidence of a successful ad/ marketing campaign undertaken to do this. The successful ad and marketing campaign itself would be evidence of that. It would be as obvious as any campaign aimed at women.
I'm surprised you didn't cite the category of male plastic surgery that's probably increasing the fastest, and which is associated with a perceived physical bias by females. I'm, of course, talking about penis enhancement. Yes, you can sell that to males in their prime by pointing out inadequacy to the opposite sex, because whether true or not (I won't get into that argument), men believe size matters to women. This surgery, BTW, is a terribly risky procedure any way it's done. The consequences of failure are harsh, and there are even consequences for success, but those guys are so desperate to "measure up" they don't care. That's at least as sad as the lengths women go to enhance their bodies for men. Rarer, but just as unfortunate. Don't even get into hair loss remedies of every sort.
My point still stands: when there is a physical feature men believe matters to women, they are just as desperate to meet the criteria as women are to fit into men's ideals of female attractiveness. You just can't name very many features that appeal consistently to women. I'm telling you, that and not the patriarchy is the actual difference as far as women feeling inadequate about their bodies compared to men. And yes, it is aggravated by advertising and marketing products, but that's because it's the easiest way to sell.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)men have been aging for a long time. facelifts have been around for a long time. but, i think the increase is more the social network of interaction with the youth and the hype of the youth and the nonacceptance of people allowed to age that is now touching on the male populations vanity, also. men simply do not have the same pressure and small window of "beauty" women do and are conditioned with day one of brth. there is just no way to suggest there is the same conditioning of defining all a woman is by her appearance.
hence, me saying balding (which start for a lot around 19 and viagra or enhancers for men that are way too young to need them). i agree those are the only two areas that men are erally feeling a pressure. and being tall. check out the escalation in drugs being given to kids that are not growing fast enough. i have seen that in a personal sphere.
men and boys have never had the pressure that their worth is in appearance. what of the biggest disparity i see created by society is the female actress HAS TO fall in certain lines of beauty to be successful. very few ugly women get a job in acting. there are way more ugly men that are successful. over time, i have commented and my oldest son notices how few good looking actors there are.
it is not because women do not have a consistency. it is because society does not force it on men.
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)But they're also living longer than ever and have more disposable income when they get up in years. Hence, more efforts to become young again.
I ask you though: who wouldn't want to be young? It's like who wouldn't want to be in shape, or in good health? There is nothing inspiring, encouraging or even good about the aging process. To think that any human being would accept senescence over youth, especially when nursing homes are filling up, is to show the facts about aging haven't sunk in.
Now what's different is that plastic surgery become good enough that it can act as a superficial and very flawed solution.
Yes, we had plastic surgery for a long time. However, I don't think it has ever been this good. I think in years prior women were desperate enough to have procedures despite its flaws and dangers. Now I think it's good enough that it has reached the threshold of men's desperation, too. The results and risks are acceptable to men.
Again, every procedure you listed is not an enhancement, it's aging- corrective. When men are getting something like rib-graftings to give them wider chests, nose-jobs, cheekbone reconstructions, eye widenings, anything to actually alter their bodies in ways not specific to aging but chasing after some ideal of beauty they've never showed, then I'll believe you.
Studies have found that tall people do fare better. But it doesn't count because that's the man's parents, not him, who's making the decision.
"it is not because women do not have a consistency. it is because society does not force it on men."
You echo almost exactly what I said, except I would say society doesn't force it on men because women don't have that consistency. An ad campaign to sell anything besides full head of hair, penis size body height (if technology gets good enough) or, perhaps, fat reduction (liposuction) will fail, because in real life, males have no verification that any other physical trait is widely desired by females.
Like Mitt Romney, there are some things ads can't sell.
I was telling Redqueen, before she gave up on me, that actors are a special breed. You're not going to have very many unattractive ones simply because people must find them interesting and pay attention to them for a couple hours at a time. To be blown up on a movie screen to twelve times normal size, in high definition, takes guts if you're not beautiful. Making them the size of Greek Gods on the screen, BTW, automatically sexualizes them. (I, myself, am worried that my own favorite actress has an eating disorder. I wouldn't inquire to her about it, but she looks so thin that I'm concerned.) "Ugly" men in Hollywood, though, are generally higher than average in looks, and only look "ugly" in a Hollywood ensemble.
It's hard to say if less attractive men are more successful, because again, there's no strict standard to hold them to. Not enough women agree on what's attractive or unattractive, and men, straight ones at least, usually make it a point that they don't show any standards for male attractiveness, or think that every male is ugly. Part of those sex roles, a way to show they're straight.
Believe me, though, if there's a famine because of this drought, thin will be yesterday pretty damn quick.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Sorry. And don't anyone bother trying to rescue that mess, it got pre-emptively locked by self delete. I had the same discussions at approximately the same level of awareness 40 years ago. Sort of discouraging.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)I think men are more likely to "hear" it coming from other men. From women, they are more likely to shut it off with internal excuses.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Last edited Wed Aug 8, 2012, 11:03 AM - Edit history (1)
not understanding. it was all kinda odd.
it was funny cause my 17 yr old son had came home right after writing this OP. all of a sudden we had a downpour. (it was lovely). and people were stuck walking, in the downpour. my son was telling me that he stopped traffic on our little road to offer a woman a ride home. i was surprised she got in. i told him, most women wouldnt take a ride. even in a downpour. and why.
he said, ya, he got it. but, he figured it was cause he "looked" so nice, young and is wearing braces, lol. all in the braces. but, the woman did say how she normally would not take a ride.
then my son read my OP
then i discussed the conversation in the mens forum and you.
and the article about the man letting the elevator go with a single woman late at night.
he understood it all, and was a good lesson for him and my other son.
so.... opportunity presented itself for my boys.
thanks.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)The mere suggestion that perhaps you need a bit more than 'public space' in common before you start asking for a sexual encounter with somebody put everyone else in that thread on the defensive.
For example: "This sort of thing wouldn't happen if women were required to be escorted by a male relative". Yes that is exactly what I meant, only with a fucking burkha too.
The world it seems would be a very sad place if "hey babe wanna fuck" and all of its variants were considered inappropriate behavior.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that was a hoot.
from what i understand the invitation was to his ROOM for coffee. he is putting it out what he is looking for. not coffee. and not conversation. but, you want to go to my room and fuck. that is taking it beyond a normal, elevator conversation. HE put the threat out. whereas if he had said, want to go to the coffee shop for a coffee.... then one is putting out "safe" signals.
i blame smiling bob who fucks a woman coming down the elevator then fucks a woman going up. cause you know, any woman that steps into an elevator with a man, goes wild, i tell you.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It is, yes.
As MadrasT's post shows, there is a definite sense of entitlement at play here.
I would say it's due to the fact that boys are socialized to expect a woman as a kind of reward. They expect that if they don't do anything wrong, they should get sex. And not just from whoever will have them, but from the woman of their choosing.
But then I'd be setting myself up to be mocked so a few people can have a good laugh.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)It seems like there are an awful lot of men out there who think any woman they are interested in should be sexually available to them, or else she is a hateful bitch.
And If she says no for any reason, there is something wrong with HER.
That analogy above about treating women like a soda machine that ate their change and didn't give them a beverage is spot on.
It reminded me of this ad:
redqueen
(115,103 posts)And it perfectly describes the Nice GuyTM syndrome: Hey, I'm nice, you like me, I do nice things for you...WHERE'S MY REWARD OF SEX?
One thing that made me really sad during all the discussions about nerds and geeks after that creep wrote about how "sixes" show up at conventions trying to "manipulate" geeks, was all the guys talking about how the pretty girls in high school were so mean to them... and all the geek girls saying 'hey guys? we were there, being nice to you, and watching you all drool and pine over the girls who treated you so badly, so...'
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Last edited Fri Aug 10, 2012, 03:58 PM - Edit history (1)
reverse roles. no one talks about how those geek girls, or less than pretty girls EXPECT to get the quarterback. wouldnt that be a laugh for all in ridiculous for a girl that is less than the cheerleader expect that the quaterback should be available to her. we all know better. wouldnt even play at the game.
but.... on the reverse side, with boys, it is expected.
now, lets look at the movies these boys are raised with. the continued 5 guy getting the hot 8 gal.
nature? i think not. conditioned and created, yup
CrispyQ
(36,478 posts)I knew some guys were "out of my league." That's how we phrased it, back in the 70s. I will say, though, that I think most of the nerd guys also knew that the cheerleader type girls were out of their league, too. Maybe that has changed? The geeky boys today don't think any girl is out of their league?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)it never popped on my radar that a less than attractive male thought he deserved or was entitled to the cheerleader. though we do hear a bunch of grown men whine about the whole cheerleader thing now as adults, when talking about their highschool days. and i think that is when i started noticing it. was on du. listening to too many men whine about it. and then noticing the movies today. and hearing it from the younger kids....
interesting.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)for purpose.
and both gender participate. and THIS would be the patriarchy. defining roles carefully manifested.
CrispyQ
(36,478 posts)And it lies within a meta culture that caters to the 'me generation.'
I see bad behavior & lack of civility increasing in both genders in our society, but with some men there is an offensive sexual-ness to it. And the media encourages it - all of it - behaving badly, creating drama. I think some people live their lives like they're on camera.
I never would have guessed as a kid that our culture would get so frickin' twisted. Too much Star Trek & happy endings.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)when he had his picture taken. hubby and i watching daily show go on and on and on about it. i told hubby, that is so wrong. and just sad. i guess news media was talking about ti and the kid had to say, no not an erection. i mean wtf.... just leave him alone. why should hte kid have to declare he did not have an erection. why would anyone make a comment on it.
people talk about those not into the raunch society, that it is no big deal. it is nature. naked is nature. sex is nature. quit making a big deal.
i profess, it is these people making the big fuckin deal. and if everyone would quit making a big deal and holding it up for everyone to see, it would not be a big deal. a bunch of grown men jumping up and down, clapping hands yelling, boobies, boobies.
really, who is making the big deal
it is a different world.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)Like I said above in one of my bullet points.
It's the "sex positive" people making the big fucking deal screaming about sex all the time.
"IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL!!!" they say...
...while the women are running around in thongs and miniskirts and 6" heels (that they can't even fucking WALK in)... stripping, lapdancing, flashing tits, and yelling "emPOWERment!!!!"
Meanwhile the guys are virtually drooling all over themselves with their "supportive" (don't forget "appreciative"!!!): "BOOOOOOOBEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ!!!! TITS!!!!!!!!!!!! STRIPPERS!!!!!!!!!!!! emPOWERment!!!! PORNpornPORNpornPORN!!!!!!!"
And somehow, we are the ones making a big deal out of sex?
That's some fucking hilarious shit right there.
CrispyQ
(36,478 posts)I had a flat tire in a parking lot. My sister was with me. I got the old tire off & was just starting to put the spare on, when a man comes up & says "Here, I'll do that for you." I turned & said, in a friendly manner, "Thanks, but I'm already dirty & practically finished." "Fucking bitch!" he snarled at me & turned away.
My sister & I looked at each other in shock & then we burst out laughing. He turned back toward us & took a step, so I held up the tire iron & my sister quickly joined my side. By then, some other people were looking & he felt enough shame to walk away, without further comment.
Another one that seems so innocuous but makes me seethe is, "Smile!" I have never once heard a man say that to another man. Only to women.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)then we burst out laughing.
actually, as i was saying wow, i was laughing at the audacity. gets scary when he turns back to you.
jeeezus
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I was mostly ignored before. I used to feel insecure about it. Now I want to go back to that!
eShirl
(18,494 posts)They never do, though.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)
Scout
(8,624 posts)i have to remember that for next time
CrispyQ
(36,478 posts)I doubt the message will get across, but at least I might not be so pissed off.
2labslib
(48 posts)Nothing ever happened, but I was always terrified walking to my car after class. Just the feeling of walking in the dark, no one else around... I think we are kind of programmed as women to be afraid like that.
I started calling my boyfriend or my dad after class every day so I would have someone to talk to and wouldn't be so scared. My boyfriend didn't get it at all. He thought I was overreacting. My dad was far more understanding.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)park early by the gym.
but ya, i would walk out with others.
i dont get why it is hard for guys to get. of course your father would, lol.
2labslib
(48 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)a late welcome to du.
2labslib
(48 posts)
CrispyQ
(36,478 posts)We are not programmed to be afraid like that; there is genuine reason why the fear exists.
Years ago I read that women who carried an umbrella were less likely to be targets. I keep an 18" piece of rebar in my truck & one by my bedside, too. 
When my mom was a young woman she carried a pool ball knotted in a sock! Ouch!
Also, walk with confidence & pay attention to your surroundings. You're less likely to be a target if you give the vibe that you're not someone to mess with.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)It was mostly a commuter school. I worked in the daytime and took night classes, parked in the lot, and drove home. The school offered me an "escort" to my car for my late night classes. I told them no thanks, but I myself offered to walk to the parking lot with the younger women in my classes. They accepted my offer, and not the school's male escorts.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)
Z_California
(650 posts)...I always feel so guilty after reading these posts. Just wanted to say....sorry. I didn't realize what a jerk I am. I wish I was never born at all.
I think I'm going to stop trying to initiate any contact with females because I'm pretty sure it will be taken as offensive or inappropriate. Wouldn't want anyone to think I'm a "creeper".
I'm sure a nice girl will find me one day and will want to marry me. I'm pretty sure shy, nice guys do very well with the ladies. Right?
Maybe some quiet, nice guys can share their stories of being approached by the woman of their dreams. Anyone?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)into this scenario and find snark to be the appropriate way to address it.
reading in my thread, you will find that i said i learned lessons in that fear and took appropriate measures. such as, walking out to my car with someone. and almost always, there were nice guys in my class that i knew that understood how i felt and were willing and enthusiastic walking me out to the car.
see the difference. the guy that was clueless how he was tripping me was immediately rejected and those that had an understanding are those that were embraced.
your post is sad. your post reflects your inability to empathize with another. and that lack will be what assures you do not get the girl, not shyness or being too nice.
thanks for playing.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)The whole thing can be summed up like this:
Women: "We are scared and tired of being seen as prey."
Men: "Tough shit it's our biology deal with it. And I've never raped anyone so it's not my problem. (Uhhhhhh, why are you treating us like shit, again?)"
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)inability to see logic. cause i know not ONE man that does not easily get it. but then, i am around ONLY men that actually sees me as a person and not a thing to use.
Z_California
(650 posts)Again, just want to say "sorry". My snark is in response more to the replies in the thread more than the OP.
I just seems to me that telling the guy in the parking lot, "no offense but could you please back off because your fucking creeping me out right now and I don't want to have to mace you" would be a more effective response than going home and indicting the entire gender in a post on DU.
Here's a deal. I will not reply to any more threads decrying the lack of empathy of the male gender and maybe y'all can have some empathy for us clumsy men who don't do well reading your "signals".
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)why a woman may be fearful in an elevator at 4 in the morning. education.
a young and inexperience girl may not get it just right, but again, your stance on here is what you should have done in the situation again shows your inability toward empathy or even basic knowledge.
so... i tell him to get out of my face or i am going to pull out the mace. do you know how INeffective that kind of challenge is to a man thinking about violence or even not thinking about violence. that is about the poorest of advice you can give to a young woman.
IF you see that this is an indictment to ALL men, then that is your issue. nowhere does it imply that ALL men are so fuckin lacking. maybe you ought to reflect on that.
i really do not care what you..... "Here's a deal"
redqueen
(115,103 posts)If a woman is really SO fucking amazingly attractive (oh, the sincere, deep attraction at play... be still my heart), walk up and hand her your number and hope for the best.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)being said to protect.... privilege, entitlement? i am not sure. warren, most all men and even guys back in the day, i have been around clearly see it from your point of view. that is what has made this experience in the "pretend" world that it is something other than what is being clearly said to them, is so odd for me.
this is not a tough concept. and it is pretty well known. men have forever been understanding and cooperative in so many ways, in my experience.
they are still playing with it in the other forum, as if they are truly oblivious to what is being said to them. i dont buy it for a moment.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)and treating them like a prospect?
Really?
Z_California
(650 posts)Some day you will be swept off your feet by a clever, artful, kinda bad boy who took a risk and nailed it. The less artful attempts will, in your mind, be you being treated like a "prospect".
All I'm saying is have a little mercy on those who don't have "it". It's not easy being a single guy and it seems like you can't win either way. Just sayin'.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)what we are taught from the youngest of age. to avoid rape. or death.
you want the woman to put aside her survival instincts because an inept guy refuses to take the time to understand? really? here in lies the issue
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I've been 'swept off my feet' (influenced by hormones) and the reason I reacted positively was that I was in a setting where being approached as a prospect was acceptable.
This is not rocket science. I don't cut any slack for men who see the whole world as their pick up joint, or all women as potential sex dispensers as opposed to human beings. None.
Z_California
(650 posts)I would never approach a woman in a parking lot late at night. I get it. Inappropriate.
But let's face it, most people are dumbasses (male and female).
I guess I have just seen too many "men are so stupid" posts that it starts to make me wonder what that fist raised through the female symbol really means. What does it mean?
Hopefully we can focus on that which we have in common and which brings us here: We all are tired of psychos spraying movie theatres with automatic weapons and narcissistic millionaires trying to swindle the rest of the little we have left.
I could start quite a few "some women just don't get it" posts, but what's the point?
Now go approach that nice guy in your class because God knows he's probably too scared to approach you.
Peace.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)meaning they are our brothers, husbands, fathers and especially sons. i am on males sides way more than men are. be assured. i want the men to live their authentic self. only then will it be better for women. we need men. men need women. that simple. i dont like or do ugly. it is not allowed in my life. and i do not live it.
if you have a thread with "some women just don't get it" and it is the same old tired male sexuality is the be all, end all, of the universe, ya, i will argue. but, if it is your authentic self and not conditioned self going beyond the fabricated machoism, i am all on your side.
thanks for this post.
Z_California
(650 posts)Even though I projectile vomited my angst all over your very valid OP you still are thoughtful enough to try to understand my feelings. I would love to grab a cup of coffee with you in a very well-lit public place
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that hesitant. i can pretty much feel the ok of a person quickly and get comfortable, easily. and then there are scary times. or where the man just does not feel right.
i was thinking about the elevator thread. and i think so much of it is in body language. a man that walks into an elevator with a disinterest. hands in pocket. i will often start up a conversation in an elevator if i feel social or stand there with no concern.
i think 4am in the morning and the guy asking to come back to room would shoot off flags.
but, my reality is most all men i am around are good guys.
and thanks.... for your posts.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Some don't get that men can like or do "girly" ( ) things and yet not be gay.
Some don't get that men aren't ATM machines with their dicks as the user interface.
Some don't get that not all men want a servant / employee / dependent as a mate.
Many people are clueless about many things. I guess the corollary to constantly reaffirming that we don't hate men is constantly reaffirming that we don't think all women are perfect and that they can be just as misogynist as any man can be.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)there are games played. games i cannot stand that women play that hurt ALL of us, though for the individual it is "fun". well, it works both ways. and it is HUGE the repercussion, as much as we like to pretend it is not like, HUGE.... sex slave, hurt women hurt more, men hurt, used, work environment that is not hostile, pay gap, abortion rights.... it is ALL of us together.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"It's not easy being a single guy..."
My experience is that being a single guy is one of the easiest of all the human experiences; however, I do tend to treat everyone respectfully and politely-- regardless of gender and regardless of whether I'm attracted to them or not, and I think it's that very thing which does in fact, make it easy. I never worry about being raped going to my car, I never worry about getting a black-eye because I tell a female "no thank you", I've never been concerned with a group of women approaching me after dark--- all in all, rather easy-peasey, fresh & breezy. 
"and it seems like you can't win either way...."
As for winning or losing either way... that may be the very problem which is preventing you from enjoying life and people more than you do-- as it's not a game to be won or lost, any more than friendship is a game, or companionship is a game. There is no score, no scoreboard, no rule manual, no stats, no board, nothing to Jenga, no monopoly money, no pieces to move around. It's simply you and other people, so throw away the high school trappings and
Remove the curious and imaginary social constructs of roles and "attempts", and simply be respectful and polite... to everyone and treat them with the respect and civility you'd want to receive yourself; five will get you ten that life gets a lot more fun, a lot easier, and friends seem to appear out of nowhere.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Chatting her up in an empty parking lot after dark and then not going away when she indicates she isn't interested is a completely different thing.
Do you understand the difference between those two scenarios?
I read another post and I see you do get it. I don't understand why you initially responded the way you did, though.
ismnotwasm
(41,989 posts)To put my answer in perspective here, my life has been a kind of a continuum--I started out as a 'bad girl' lived on the streets, lo and behold 35 years later, I'm a registered nurse and a grandmother of five. So the 'bad boy' bullshit passed me by, because the people I knew at one time were rotten in a way most people aren't exposed to-- and I'm not stupid, nor gullible. No bad boys for me. The term means something different to me than most.
So a man being a being a quiet, nice guy has a lot of value to me. I married a nice guy, a little rough around the edges, but so am I.
So where are you looking for these ladies? Clubs, bars, work, school? Is there a quiet 'nice' woman around that just doesn't ring your bell? Do you give her a chance?
To me watching middleclass mating rituals only heightens my sense that men think they need to be predatory in order to 'succeed'-- it's worse in lower socioeconomic classes, but more honest in a way.
Women are conditioned to expect these behaviors, but often don't have the experience to sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak. There is a sexual element as women are also exposed to a lot of bullshit regarding their sexuality. Women are STILL faking orgasms, for instance in numbers ridiculous for this day and age.
Last, I work with a ton of young women who are smart, educated and do know what they want. They complain that men are disrespectful and unreliable (ok, maybe they don't use those words)
The ones who are in relationships, all are with 'nice guys'. So don't give up hope.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i am so tired of this "bad boy/nice guy" game our culture plays. there are men that are attracted to the female users. and women attreacked to the male user. why? dont know, not my thing and never has been. never will be.
i did not know about this whole "nice guy" issue until du a handful of years ago when i started to hear the whine. i did not even get it. reality is, the majority of women not only want the nice guy, we marry the nice guy. appreciate and value simply cause he can respect.
the men that whine that the nice guy never gets the woman needs to do some self reflecting.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)If I were in a situation where I was in a parking lot like you described and a woman was walking alone to her car, I wouldn't even think of approaching her at all. There's real reason for women to feel ill at ease in that situation, and it would never be my intention to make anyone feel ill at ease. Even if my car was located in the same direction, I would wait until she was in her car before going to mine. I'm completely harmless, but I don't expect anyone else to know that, and behave accordingly.
I'd do the same if it were another man walking in a parking lot. Making people uncomfortable sucks. There's no point to it at all.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)so i am not getting the ones that pretend otherwise. thanks for your post.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)And how awful and terrible and unreasonable she was being for daring to say anything at all about being imposed on by strangers in this kind of inconsiderate, male-privileged and oh so very entitled way?
Yeah, there are PLENTY of patriarchy-loving men AND women who simply don't seem to have the slightest hint of a clue.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)He's done it before but this time there were other people there. It makes me uncomfortable of course. Another woman got off the elevator when I did, so I asked her if it was just me did she notice... she said she was uncomfortable just being around it.
I don't feel the slightest bit 'precious' complaining about it either. A lot of men and patriarchy-loving women seem to enjoy trying to silence women from talking about this stuff, saying we have no right not to be made to feel uncomfortable. WTF kind of logic is that? It's the same logic that has been used for centuries to rationalize and excuse bullies. Not that his creepy staring is tantamount to bullying, but it's rude and there's no excuse for it.
Last time he was on the opposite side against the wall with his back against it staring. This time he was right next to me, and standing almost sideways, kinda at an angle, again staring. Ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh. I will try harder to notice when he's around and wait for the next elevator next time.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)keep eye contact. do not be fearful, be pissed. he will get embarrassed. and for those defending the geeky or inept or nice guy, if nothing else you give him a lesson in manners. otherwise you put the fear in him that the next woman may have to guts to challenge him, too. and embarrassing him. this is the whole predator/asshole thing. challenge. dont look away. dont look down. fuck him.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)WTF? Why is that? You're right, that's a reasonable, sensible response. It should be automatic.
What about my reaction to the laundromat creeper... I thought I did pretty good there.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)on you staying quiet and being intimidated. fuck the intimidation. that is all the fuckers have. dont be intimidated, and they are fuckin useless and look like fools.
tell me again about the laundromat creeper.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)He works there so I'd see him regularly. We'd talk about kids, traveling, etc. Then one day he was like a different person. He came and sat next to me where I was reading my book. He interrupted me which I hate that to begin with, and started telling me how sexy I was to him. Those were his exact words. Maybe he'd been drinking, I dunno. Anyway he interrupted my reading to say it more than once so I just got up and moved and waited and read elsewhere. As I was leaving though, he held the door open for me and stopped me to apologize. He said he was sorry if he offended me or made me uncomfortable and I said he did. Then he goes further and asks but why? I said maybe if you were in a position to get inappropriate comments like that from strangers you'd understand. Then the jerk doubles down and tells me what it is about me that he likes so much, while staring at that body part. I got pissed and said... Oh hell now that I think back I realize this was a dumb thing to say, but I was so, so uncomfortable... I said that I'd tell my boyfriend that he approved and just stormed off. I was so pissed and upset. And there's another detail I left out cause it's just too awful.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)lol.
fuck you....
and make a grand exit. would have worked. again. eye to eye.
ya, you did good.
i really am not nice with over the line anymore. i was at hubby company party. didnt know anyone. we were outside drinking. i was sittin. a guy standing at my shoulder. i was talking but it sunk in the man at my shoulder was talking about the womens boobs. got to me as i am looking up and said, big tits. i looked down at my boobs, looked up at him, down to his crotch, up to his eyes and said.... little dick.
turned and started talking again.
dont even know how he took it. lol
then it dawned at me, looked at hubby to see if he was bothered.
nope.
cool.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)I've dealt with a number of people having worked in an HR department who all of a sudden take a turn from being seemingly normal to making utterly bizarre and inappropriate comments about any number of things, as well as developing ticks and quirks that become unnerving to co-workers. It almost always has to do with them not taking a prescribed medication because of all sorts of reasons (they think they are "cured", don't like the side effects, dropped medical and can't pay, etc.)
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)to a woman cause they are entitled and a woman wants to hear this shit, of course and it is a compliment, so lighten up and say thank you.
what do you think the odds are....
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)I accept your premise that there are assholes who say whatever they want whenever they like. redqueen presented a scenario that did not exactly fit that and was obviously upset by it. A guy who seems nice and normal suddenly becoming a total creep one day with no build up to it.
Look, I'll bow out....I know I'm not wanted here, but I just wanted to point out that a lot of people are on all sorts of prescription meds and drugs. I'd thought maybe you'd consider it, but hey, it's not your issue. I've been dealing with something lately and it's opened my eyes to some things about even the most minor mental instability, even without my work experience.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i had also just read the posts in the walking home a drunk woman, holding hands, wanted to fuck her, but instead went home and fucked wife, pat on the back, OP.
ya.... there is often other things happening in a post we are unaware of.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)His decision to argue and complain after asking why his behavior was offensive, ane the way he was acting at the time, were enough to keep me away from that place for good, whatever the reason.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)But I would use it *very* cautiously.
I would never do it in an alone place like an elevator. (What if the guy is unhinged, and that sets him off? He could react violently and then I might find myself in a fine mess.)
I *would* do it in a public place where there were other people around.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)not much is gonna happen. i was raised with huge men. manly men. i have said in the past the whole intimidation thing just does not take hold, unless in a horribly vulnerable position like late at night in a parking lot with no one around, really young, lol.
but, then, i have never had a man attack me or hit me, or shove me so i may have a false comfort others may not have.
i do think in a lot of these situations we lower our eyes. and that has become a huge NO for me. eye to eye. i got so fuckin tired of it and since doing it i feel so much more empowered. they back down fast. THEY lower their eyes.
and really, there is a feel to it. i interact all over the place with strangers. lots of men. we can feel it.
hey, have you ever taken the test where you look at a picture of just the eyes and decide what emotion the person is expressing. i may get one wrong or none wrong the many times i have taken it over the years. i am good.
i like to observe. funnest activity.
standing in line. a man with his wife. he is on the far side. i was watching him try to look around his wife, without notice, so he could check me out. lots of squirming. she is purposely looking the opposite direction like to say, look and get it over with. by this time i was so pissed, by the time he maneuvered himself to "casually" look around his women i had the eye to eye. lol lol. that was one of the funniest. he pulled back and hid behind his wifes body the rest of the time we stood in line.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)As they* have to justify that behavior.
They operate under the tiresome "personal freedom" meme, and use that as a justification for men leering and such. Which goes something like: It's a free country, too bad if it makes you uncomfortable, stop being such a hypersensitive prude, men are visual, women with healthy sexuality like being looked at, blah blah blah.
Well, I retain the "personal freedom" to fucking object. Loudly.
Asshole behavior gets called out. Everyone may have the "right" to be a creepy jerk, but I damn well have the right to label the behavior as... the behavior of a creepy jerks.
They always seem to miss that "personal responsibility and freedom" extends to everybody.
(Sorry about creepy guy.)
* "They" being the "A lot of men and patriarchy-loving women" redqueen referred to.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Instead, my reaction is to question my own feelings.
Thanks, rape culture, for gaslighting everyone about what is and is not appropriate behavior.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)this is the issue. this is why i really really want you to look in the eyes and challenge. you are allowed to be rude. we are raised to not be rude. but, you get to if you want. you do NOT have to be the "nice girl". this is why i was so pissed with the waiter rubbing his crotch on my 13 yr old niece and my older friend sat there and said nothing. i was so fuckin pissed off at her. speak the fuck up. do NOT be embarrassed adn if you are, tough shit. for the NEXT girl. and then i was pissed off at niece and her friend cause they lowered head and stayed quiet. i told her. do you THINK i would have kept my mouth shut. do you THINK i would have worried about embarrassment. shout it the fuck out if you have/want to.
same with your daughter and the boys in class.
we have to teach our girls, from example, to not lower eyes and stay quiet. that is their BEST defense.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)But I felt like such a hypocrite.
This senior VP where I work was acting so inappropriately one time and I said nothing. Didn't want to risk my job. How's that for cowardly?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)we have to say something. we have to.
it is like this board. every strong voiced women, even the ones that are not feminist and have no desire. every strong voiced woman is swarmed in such a way to silence them. it is threatening. so fuckin threatening. even if it is a cold..... i beg your pardon, that does it. it does not have to be total confrontation, lose your job. i have always been able to project dissatisfication one way or another when anyone goes over the line.
practice.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)And I asked a few more questions about her, redirecting the conversations that way.
I'm such a wimp. My storming off? From the laundromat creeper? I had a big fake angry smile on my face. Polite as you please, but seething inside. I slammed my trunk shut though, and slammed my door and sped off. I doubt he even noticed.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)it is such an hoot all of our unique differences.
what it is sounding to me like, is a passive aggressiveness. hubby does that. lots of people do.
me
not a damn thing passive about my aggressiveness. i do not have even a little bit of that in me. wouldnt know how to do, wouldnt do fro anything.
but, as i said, i am from a home of manly men, testosterone driven male and confrontation was a must, and i could not be intimidated or i would have been in a world of hurt. i was also in a very protected environment.
BIG difference.
i was free to be, safely.
big difference.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i had a very small, very petite mom that did not put up with shit from anyone, ever.
luvspeas
(1,883 posts)You are right, these things happen all the time. Don't be fooled that guys don't understand. There are plenty of guys out there who get a woodie from watching women's discomfort in these situations. Some never take the next step, some are just sizing up the situation.
I hope you learned something from the experience. Next time...
The first inclination that something is wrong, don't walk RUN to a safer location.
Don't be afraid to turn around and sceam at the guy. Make a BIG scene if you need to get rid of him. One guy I did this to started CRYING! It was all just a ploy because he still wouldn't get away from me.
NEVER let anyone get between you and your car. Abandon the car if you have to. If he had gotten you in the car, you might be dead now.
Do not worry about what you look like or who you might offend. You want to attract attention to yourself.
What have you go to lose? A little time? Your dignity? The respect of someone you don't know or don't want to know?
If the person yells a profanity at you, all the better. He's going to attract negative attention to himself and someone seeing heim might call 911 for you.
Please be a bitch next time, please...
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you are so right on. this was in the 80's so a whole different time. ALL that you write is right on and should be told, retold and told again to our daughters.
i have so learned. and i am with you on all of it. that one situation taught me so much.
thanks you so much for your post. very important.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)is a useful tech. that a boss of mine (female) taught me years ago.
Used it twice, so far. Worked like a charm.
