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YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
Sun Apr 24, 2016, 01:16 PM Apr 2016

Is this a logical interpretation of the Second Amendment?

My interpretation:

"Since a well regulated militia is necessary for the security of a free State, it is of utmost importance that the right of the People to keep and bear arms is not infringed by the federal government - and by extension, state and local governments."

I base this on the historical and social context of Colonial, Revolutionary, and post-Revolutionary America.

Thoughts?

10 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Is this a logical interpretation of the Second Amendment? (Original Post) YoungDemCA Apr 2016 OP
Yep Mike__M Apr 2016 #1
Doesn't that just lead to the conclusion TeddyR Apr 2016 #2
Adding a word that billh58 Apr 2016 #3
THREE Commas. lastlib Apr 2016 #5
Improper use of punctuation can drastically alter meaning, indeed. Electric Monk Apr 2016 #6
Not really - otherwise I wonder what the hell this sentence means, then? jmg257 Apr 2016 #8
The 2nd is a right of the states Buzz cook Apr 2016 #4
2ndA historical context? jimmy the one Apr 2016 #7
I'm not sure about "and by extension". States could not infringe any more the then the feds could. jmg257 Apr 2016 #9
Gun Nuts just can't help themselves billh58 Apr 2016 #10
 

TeddyR

(2,493 posts)
2. Doesn't that just lead to the conclusion
Sun Apr 24, 2016, 01:59 PM
Apr 2016

That the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, for any reason?

billh58

(6,635 posts)
3. Adding a word that
Sun Apr 24, 2016, 02:26 PM
Apr 2016

is not there does not change anything, and the bought and paid for interpretation by the right-wing gun lobby is not what the Second Amendment actually says: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Second Amendment absolutists conveniently leave out the "well regulated militia" part when they argue for unrestricted possession of weapons designed for no other purpose than to kill, and are directly responsible for the gun violence epidemic and daily mass shootings we are experiencing in this country.

Guns were invented for killing and war, have been improved over the years to become better at killing and war, and serve no other purpose than to kill and wage war. Killing game for food is an accepted practice, but it is still killing and it does not require an arsenal of weapons to kill Bambi.

Since we in this Group already know and agree that guns need to be regulated and their use restricted, the aim and goals of this Group are to discuss ways to accomplish that end. Arguments of support for the current lax regulation of lethal weapons are not welcome here.

lastlib

(23,393 posts)
5. THREE Commas.
Sun Apr 24, 2016, 05:54 PM
Apr 2016

The gun-humpers like to take two of them out, especially the one after "arms".

It makes a significant difference in the logical meaning of the amendment. With three commas, the phrase "A well-regulated militia" is made the superior clause, thus the focus of the sentence. The phrases "being necessary to the security of a free state" and "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" are SUBORDINATE clauses and are thus modifiers to the superior clause. Take out those two clauses, and you still have a complete sentence: "A well-regulated militia...shall not be infringed."

Completely different logic to it than the bullet-heads want to give it. No, the interpretation supplied by the OP is not correct--it is essentially identical to the interpretation of the bullet-head crowd.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
8. Not really - otherwise I wonder what the hell this sentence means, then?
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 12:35 PM
Apr 2016

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


No soldier shall...but in a manner to be proscribed by law.

No soldier shall...nor in time of war.

No soldier shall...without consent of the owner.

In time of peace in any house...but in a manner proscribed by law.



Strange how all those commas really don't do anything at all to change the intended meaning...

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.

Buzz cook

(2,474 posts)
4. The 2nd is a right of the states
Sun Apr 24, 2016, 02:36 PM
Apr 2016

To have their own armies. By disassociating the militia clause and the right to bear arms, the Heller decision made a novel interpretation of the 2nd that was not backed by any precedent.

Luckily what the Supreme Court does it can also undo.

jimmy the one

(2,708 posts)
7. 2ndA historical context?
Tue Apr 26, 2016, 11:42 AM
Apr 2016

young demCA: My interpretation: "Since a well regulated militia is necessary for the security of a free State, it is of utmost importance that the right of the People to keep and bear arms is not infringed by the federal government - and by extension, state and local governments."
Is this a logical interpretation of the Second Amendment?


That's essentially been the broad definition of 2ndA, a rose by any other name etc; you only recite the minority individual interpretation embraced circa early 1800's generally by new americans wanting a right to own guns without having to serve in militia, aka scofflaws.
The opposing narrow def is militia centric or strictly militia, which conveyed any right as being incumbent upon belonging to a militia, as imposed by law in the militia act of 1792, with an auxiliary ability to personally own a firearm. Since a white male 18-45 was the state militia, he therefore had a right to keep & bear arms therefor. It was NOT since a white male was a white male he had a right to kba. Today there is no citizens militia as envisioned in the 1791 2ndA.

young dem: I base this on the historical and social context of Colonial, Revolutionary, and post-Revolutionary America.

No you don't - you base it upon the gun lobby's twisting about the intent & precedent of the 2ndA, when they began subverting 2ndA in the 1970's. The only history you employ is revisionist history.
As far as post - revolutionary america goes, as many opinions about militia/centric interpretations are had, as that of individual rkba, since the schism had begun in early 1800's; but most i-rkba interpretations had nowt to do with original intent.

young dem: I base this on the historical and social context of Colonial, Revolutionary, and post-Revolutionary America.

Historical & social context, like these?:
Virginia: (June 12, 1776) That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.
Massachusetts: The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common defense (1780)
DELAWARE (Sep 11, 1776) That a well-regulated militia is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free government.
MARYLAND Nov11, 1776) That a well-regulated militia is the proper and natural defence of a free government.
NORTH CAROLINA Dec18, 1776) that the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of the State; and, as standing arm..
MASSACHUSETTS Oct25, 1780) The people have a right to keep and bear arms for the common defence.
NEW HAMPSHIRE June 2, 1784) A well regulated militia is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a state.
NEW YORK CONVENTION July 7,1788) That the militia should always be kept well organized, armed and disciplined, and include, according to past usages of the states, all the men capable of bearing arms, and that no regulations tending to render the general militia useless and defenceless, by establishing select corps of militia, of distinct bodies of military men, not having permanent interests and attachments to the community, ought to be made.
RHODE ISLAND RATIFICATION CONVENTION May 29, 1790) That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, including the body of the people capable of bearing arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state.


1939 Supreme Court Miller decision: The Constitution, as originally adopted, granted to the Congress power --To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.
With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such {militia} forces, the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/307/174

Dept of Justice brief to the 1939 Supreme Court above, written 1938: doj brief, 1938: In the only other case in which the provisions of the National Firearm Act have been assailed as being in violation of the Second Amendment (United States v. Adams {1935}, the contention was summarily rejected as follows: The second amendment to the Constitution, providing, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed," has no application to this act. The Constitution does not grant the privilege to racketeers and desperadoes to carry weapons of the character dealt with in the act. It refers to the militia, a protective force of government; to the collective body and not individual rights.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
9. I'm not sure about "and by extension". States could not infringe any more the then the feds could.
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 12:49 PM
Apr 2016

Each state was mandated to always keep up a well armed and well regulated militia...they were "necessary".

Per the Constitution, the central govt required these state entities, when called into federal service, as the primary forces for securing our liberties, our 1st line of defense.

The states & local cannot disarm the militias because doing so would deprive the federal govt the ability to keep the guarantees proclaimed in the constitution:

"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence."

"Congress shall...provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions".

billh58

(6,635 posts)
10. Gun Nuts just can't help themselves
Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:19 PM
Apr 2016

can they? Second Amendment absolutists keep spewing the same convoluted NRA, Far Right, Tea Party, Trumpster, interpretation of what is really a very simple sentence.

The Second Amendment was understood, and interpreted, to mean what it actually says since the birth of this nation, until the right-wing Neoconservatives gained control of the Supreme Court. That gave us Bush, Citizens United, and Heller, along with other atrocious rulings, and it has been downhill since then.

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