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[billh58]

This message was self-deleted by its author (billh58) on Thu Mar 12, 2015, 05:37 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[flamin lib]

1. Guns don't kill, bullets kill people.

Bullets fired from guns with people holding them. The difference escapes me . . .

Besides, if knives and clubs were so effective why would anyone want a gun? Wouldn't they want a knife or a club instead?

[BeanMusical]

5. Just throw a handful of bullets really hard at someone.

You won't kill anyone.

[Martin Eden]

2. Guns don't kill people, 2-year-olds with guns kill people (Walmart incident)

Also, I never heard of a drive-by stabbing or an errant knife killing bystanders 50 feet away or inside a neighboring house.

[valerief]

3. Guns don't kill people, forks do. That's what ammosexuals tell me. And we don't ban forks. nt

[BeanMusical]

6. Idiots.

[NBachers]

4. What would the statistics be if they factored in "accidents" and "guns that just went off?"

Or intentional or unintentional gun-related injuries vs. intentional or unintentional knife injuries?

[libodem]

7. Thanks for the stats

They are hard to come by as gun lobby tries to pass laws that prohibit putting this information out.
Also it is good that you published this in this group so that it isn't locked out of GD.

I think this is big news and should be out there for everyone to consume.

But often I would find this stuff in the host's forum alerted and locked as propaganda.

[happyslug]

8. Look into those statistics even deeper, and you find rifles and shotguns kill few people...

The overwhelming weapon of choice to kill someone are pistols. Rifles AND shotguns are used less then knives

Weapons............................................2009...........2010.........2011..........2012.........2013
Total...............................................13,752.......13,164........12,795......12,888.........12,253
Total firearms:....................................9,199........8,874..........8,653.......8,897..........8,454
....Handguns.......................................6,501.........6,115 ........6,251......6,404..........5,782
.....Rifles...............................................351...........367.............332.........298.............285
.....Shotguns.........................................423...........366.............362.........310.............308.
.....Other guns.........................................96............93...............97.........116.............123
.....Firearms, type not stated..................1,828........1,933...........1,611......1,769...........1,956
Knives or cutting instruments...................1,836........1,732...........1,716......1,604...........1,490
Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.)...........623...........549.............502.........522..............428
Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.)...817 769.............751..........707.............687
Poison......................................................7.............11...............5............13...............11
Explosives.................................................2..............4................6.............8.................2
Fire........................................................98............78...............76...........87................94
Narcotics................................................52............45...............33...........38...............53
Drowning..................................................8............10...............15...........14................4
Strangulation.........................................122...........122..............88............90..............85
Asphyxiation............................................84............98..............92...........106.............95
Other weapons or weapons not stated........904..........872............858............802............850

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2009-2013.xls

In cases where the weapon is NOT stated, the weapon is a pistol, thus Rifles and Shotguns appear in few crimes, in fact fewer crimes then knives, blunt instruments (Clubs) and fists (and other parts of the body used to beat someone).

[billh58]

9. And your straight-from-the-NRA-playbook

point is? A gun, is a gun, is a gun. Guns kill from a distance. Knives kill up close and personal. The fact remains that guns are the weapon of choice for the majority of murders in this country.

Thanks for playing.

[BrotherIvan]

10. Actually, a really good argument can be made for European/Canadian style gun control this way

They allow hunting guns such as rifles and shotguns but effectively ban handguns. That is why their murder rates are so much lower. Not high-powered rifles, just old school ones and it has the effect that you can't argue that you don't have self-defense as shotguns are supposed to be the best for that (loud, intimidating, etc.). You also can't say that hunting or target shooting are disallowed. So a majority of gunners' reasoning (if you can call it such) is out the window. The rest are paranoid people who feel the need to be armed every waking moment. They are afraid of "criminals" with guns but will never admit that most stolen guns are stolen from a house of a "responsible gun owner" if they come from anywhere.

[billh58]

11. I totally agree with you,

Last edited Fri Jan 30, 2015, 05:25 PM - Edit history (1)

but this is different from claiming that AR-15s are harmless (relatively speaking). Long guns, by and large, are used for accepted and understandable purposes, and are not normally carried around in public (except for Texas and a few other right-wing controlled states).

[BrotherIvan]

12. And I agree that NO guns are harmless

And that the NRA has pushed a glorified gangster/cowboy image so people buy as many as possible and dream they're Bruce Willis in their heads. They have also taught all gunners that if they shout the loudest and get butthurt the easiest, they'll win. Sadly, it's working. The ones here wear me out.

[happyslug]

15. You are the one playing right into the NRA's handbook

As late as the 1960s, only 10% of all gun sales were pistols, it is now 40%. The number of Rifles and Shotguns (and that include 50 caliber rifles and "Assault Weapons&quot have increased but no where near what pistols sales have gone up. Western Ammunition sold off its Winchester subsidiary for Winchester only made rifles and Shotguns (The subsidiary later went bankrupt for the profits was in Pistols NOT Rifles or Shotguns). Remington, the other big Arms maker, made only one pistol in the 1960s, a single shot pistol for target shooting. Dupont sold Remington off a few years ago for the same reason Western sold Winchester, they is a huge profit in ammunition but little profit in Rifles and Shotguns and the actual recent increase in firearm sales was in Pistols not Rifles and Shotguns,

Side note: Remington is now making a AR-15 clone for its present owners.

This change is what is being sold had lead to the NRA defending pistols rights AND co-mixing in Rifles and Shotgun owners (who still make 60% of the sales of firearms) so to maximize the opposition to any gun control laws, even ones that may work such as restrictions on buying and possessing pistols. i have run across a lot of people whose weapon is one their father gave them and thus have never purchased a firearm supporting the NRA for the NRA say a law made to control Pistols will ban their owning their father's Winchester.

Thus the NRA AVOIDS showing any fact that shows the dangers of Pistols when compared to any other weapon, including knives, fists, Rifles and Shotguns.

Furthermore the NRA uses the passage of any firearm law as an example of a desire to ban ALL firearms, including Rifles and Shotguns, even if the intention is aimed at pistols only.

This causes some weird situations, For example California, it is ILLEGAL to own a Semiautomatic only AK-47 Clone or AR-15 clone or a 50 caliber Browning Machine Gun Bolt action rifle, but no additional restrictions on who can own a pistol. That the former are RARELY if EVER used in an act of violence, while pistols are used in 70% of such crimes seems NOT a factor. It is like the story a car dealer who sold Volvos in the 1950s told me, they had to remove the Seat Belts for the State had said they were unsafe for someone once was caught in their car by their seatbelt and could not get out in time to escape the fire. That thousands of people could be safe if the car had seatbelts was unimportant to them (We are talking of th 1950s).

I bring up the Volvo story to show that OPINION as to Safety is often used to ban things that if you looked at the STATISTICS should NOT be (and should be required). I also bring it up to show what the NRA handbook on these Statistics is to use them to get owners of RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS to join in the battle against restrictions on HANDGUNS to protect their RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS. It is a classic case of confusing the issues by expanding who will oppose a law by CLAIMING people who will NOT be affected by the law will be affected by the law. Part of that program is to get supporters of the law being opposed to make statements the NRA can use to show the law is NOT against just Handguns but all Firearms, even Firearms rarely used in crimes.

In affect by saying there is no difference between those weapons used in 69% of all Homicides also includes whose weapons used less then knives or clubs in crimes, you just double any opposition to such laws. If you say Rifle and Shotguns will NOT be affected and convince firearm owners of that fact, the opposition to such laws will drop at least 60% (and given most people buy a rifle or shotgun once every ten years ot so, but pistols buyers buy pistols more often, the number can be as high a 75%).

You have to understand the Statistics, accept them and use them. 69 % of all homicides are done with pistols. The number of homicides done with Rifles and Shotguns are less then Knives and clubs. Thus restrictions of Rifles and Shotguns will have minimal affect on Murder, but a ban on Pistols should have a huge effect. This message is what the NRA does NOT want out, for if it came out 70% plus of firearms owners (owners of Rifles and Shotguns) will drop their opposition to those gun controls. You by NOT separating the two groups is falling right into the NRA trap, for you are providing the NRA clear evidence that the thrust of gun control is NOT crime control, or pistol control, but total control over Firearms. Rifles and Shotgun overs will oppose such control, but they will agree to controls that reduce crime PROVIDED it is aimed only at those firearms primarily used in Crimes (i.e. Pistols).

[billh58]

16. And you, like the NRA and the

right-wing gun lobby try to twist the argument by insinuating that long guns do not factor into the gun violence problem and as a public health menace in this country. There is sound reasoning behind the Democratic Party's platform calling for reinstatement of the AWB, and tighter gun control legislation for ALL guns.

This Group is a safe haven Group for the discussion of how to implement gun control in the USA, and is based on the principle that the NEED for gun control has already been established. If you want to argue NRA and Second Amendment absolutist talking points, the RKBA Group is where you should be posting.

[happyslug]

18. To make any changes you look for allies and divide the opposition

I hate to say this you are acting like many lefties, rather than look for allies, you hold yourself to an absolute that can not be obtain for you attack potential allies rather then try to recruit them. Governments are ruled by coalitions even the US Governments, we form these coalitions in the form of political parties. Thus to get any change you have to form coalitions with people you may not like. FDR's New Deal Coalitions joined Labor with the segregationist south and than new Democratic inner city machines (who recruited ethics and African Americans). Thus you had people who hated each other in the same party, but they wanted to restrict wall-street, help the unemployed, get people to work, improve income to Rural Farmers AND urban workers.

Yes, the New Deal Coalition had elements inside it that would and did break it apart, but it also achieved almost all of the New Deal and other progressive legislature between 1930 and 1980. Where the coalition failed was where the GOP could and did the divide the Coalition. The NRA does this constantly as to Gun Control by making a solid effort to mix pistols with other gun control law. You have to keep them apart and constantly keep them apart, make sure that any propose law clearly state that the reason for the law is to reduce murder and that Long Arms are rarely involved in such crimes. It is a them you have to keep up and be constant about, NOT demand something that can NOT happen without the support of others.

Ask yourself who among the NRA supporters will you try to convert? That is a way to divide opposition to gun control, but showing you oppose INEFFECTIVE laws that sound good, but has no affect on crime, while supporting laws that will do some good. You have to look for allies that you can live with, and at the same time divide the opposition. So far in this group I have just seen people who want to exclude anyone who is NOT 100% for what they say, and that is no way to get the law changed. You have to work with people you may even dislike to get the law changed. Do not opt for the perfect law, when it is impossible to achieve, while dismissing laws that can be passed because they are NOT perfect. The NRA does NOT do that, and anyone opposing them have to adopt the same tactics.

[Electric Monk]

20. So basically you've come here to dare me to, or test whether I'll block you from the Group?

This is a safe haven group for people who are not pro-gun. You don't really seem to fit. So, why do you want to be here, to teach us the error of our ways?

[billh58]

21. Like your Gungeoneer idols,

you appear to be under the assumption that ALL American gun owners think as you do, and vote as a bloc. Hate to burst your bubble, Bubba, but only the right-wing extremist gun nuts view gun control as the absolute "Leftist" evil that you and your right-wing gunner buddies cower from. You have fed into the fear-mongering that the NRA/ILA and the Koch Bothers have spoon fed you and your "cold dead hands" crowd.

[Electric Monk]

17. You make a good argument for much stricter regulations on who can and cannot own pistols

[happyslug]

19. Actually that cartoon sums up the argument

The NRA wants people to think laws restricting Handguns are also aimed at their rifles and shotguns. The NRA wants people to act like the character on the left. The NRA do NOT want such people to even listen to a person drawn on the Right for they are NOT saying opposing statements. Once the person on the left accepts that (and this is best done as the person of the right is doing, non-confrontational) you have him or her half converted to what the person on the left is advocating. We have to talk and talk often like the person of the right to persons like that on the right. They may not listen to us at first, but they will once they accept the fact that what the person on the right is correct.

I would advise people to keep that cartoon and show it to people who oppose gun control, it gives them something to laugh about for it makes sense. Getting people to think that the other side have good arguments is the first step to getting them to change.

[rgbecker]

13. This post is missing almost 20,000 accidents and suicides.

By firearm. Per year. Total deaths from firearms are essentially equal to automobile deaths. Automobile deaths when I was growing up, with far fewer cars and people on the road ranged in the area of 50,000/year. Then the people, the government got involved. Who is complaining? Once there were people refusing to wear seat belts and the talk of air bags, sponsored by the Detroit lobby, was all about the high cost, loss of freedom etc. Now people wouldn't buy a new airbagless car if it were offered.

How many of these firearm deaths could be prevented? Or maybe the NRA thinks of these as a desired outcome fitting in with common eugenics theory. I think many of these would never happen if only knives, hammers and fists were handy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

[billh58]

14. You are correct, but this OP

addresses the use of firearms as the preferred weapon in the commission of murder, and not all firearm deaths. Indeed, deaths by firearms for young people are expected to exceed automobile deaths sometime this year:

https://www.facebook.com/AmericansForResponsibleSolutions/photos/a.129374647231662.27962.121378471364613/415796961922761/?type=1&theater