Bernie Sanders
Related: About this forumsome slime going around.
This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by TM99 (a host of the Bernie Sanders group).
a hillary supporter posted this on her fb page.
i wonder if folks have seen this. please debunk, and i will be happy to clobber her.
As far as Bernie's long held views, here's a passage from Ashley Smith writing for the socialistworker.org
"DESPITE HIS own claims, Sanders has not been an antiwar leader. Ever since he won election to the House, he has taken either equivocal positions on U.S. wars or outright supported them.
His hawkish positions--especially his decision to support Bill Clinton's 1999 Kosovo War--drove one of his key advisers, Jeremy Brecher, to resign from his staff. Brecher wrote in his resignation letter, "Is there a moral limit to the military violence you are willing to participate in or support?"
So outraged were peace activists over Sanders' support of the Kosovo War that they occupied his office in 1999. Sanders had them arrested.
Under the Bush regime, Sanders' militarism had only grown worse. While he called for alternative approaches to the war on Afghanistan, he failed to join the sole Democrat, Barbara Lee, to vote against Congress' resolution that gave George Bush a blank check to launch war on any country he deemed connected to the September 11 attacks.
Ever since, he has voted for appropriations bills to fund the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, despite their horrific toll on the occupied peoples as well as U.S. soldiers.
Sanders has been critical of the war on Iraq, but he has supported pro-war measures--such as a March 21, 2003, resolution stating, "Congress expresses the unequivocal support and appreciation of the nation to the President as Commander-in-Chief for his firm leadership and decisive action in the conduct of military operations in Iraq as part of the ongoing Global War on Terrorism."
He also opposes immediate withdrawal from Iraq, despite the fact that a majority of residents in his home city of Burlington voted for such a position in a town meeting resolution in February 2005.
The day after his election to the Senate, Sanders declared, "I don't think you can do a quote-unquote immediate withdrawal. I think the policy has got to be we will withdraw our troops as soon as possible, and by that, I mean that I believe we can have our troops out in the next year, and maybe a significant number of them before that. I don't think you can snap your fingers and just bring all the troops home tomorrow. I just don't think that's practical."
Even more shocking, Sanders scuttled any action on a wave of Bush impeachment resolutions that swept Vermont towns in 2006. Like House Majority Leader-to-be Nancy Pelosi, who had promised not to impeach Bush, Sanders argued that impeachment was impractical, and that activists should put energy into electing Democrats.
Outraged, Dan Dewalt, the organizer of the impeachment resolution campaign in Vermont, said, "We think we have quality politicians in Vermont. We're wrong. We have politics as usual in Vermont. Our so-called independent congressman, Bernie Sanders, can't get far enough away from impeachment."
Sanders voted for House Resolution 921, which gave full support to Israel's murderous war on Lebanon. He also voted for HR 4681 that imposed sanctions on the Palestinian Authority with the aim of removing the democratically elected Hamas government.
In response, longtime War Resisters League leader David McReynolds sent a public letter to Sanders, stating, "Because of your vote of support for the Israeli actions, I would hope any friends and contacts of mine would not send you funds, nor give you their votes."
Indeed, Sanders has consistently defended Israel through it worst crimes against Palestinians and Arabs. Unsurprisingly, some Sanders staffers have also worked with the American Israeli Political Action Committee (AIPAC)--including David Sirota, now a Democratic Party strategist, and Sanders' former communications director Joel Barkin.
Finally, in perhaps his worst betrayal yet, Sanders joined a host of liberal Democrats including Barbara Lee and John Conyers to vote for HR 282, the Iran Freedom Support Act--which bears a striking resemblance to the resolutions that set up the framework for the war on Iraq.
The act stipulates that the U.S. should impose sanctions on Iran to prevent it from developing weapons of mass destruction and distributing them to aid international terrorism. It also calls for the U.S. to support democratic change in the country, thereby establishing all necessary pretexts for a war on Iran. Democrat Dennis Kucinich voted against the act and denounced it as a "stepping stone to war."
eta link to original-http://socialistworker.org/2015/05/05/problem-bernie-sanders
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Legit info should have legit links to back it up. A personal FB page does not qualify.
mopinko
(70,532 posts)i edited to add the link. i posted in all sincerity.
i would love to debunk her. a decent person, but a real know it all.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)No need to scrub the post, IMHO. If there's error or misinformation, people can point it out.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)Respect of protected groups really is necessary if we are to avoid debilitating acrimony.
mopinko
(70,532 posts)it wasnt something i wanted to hear from the hillary supporters about.
honestly, i have zero snarky or nasty intent here.
i love bernie. i was surprised to read this stuff. i am sure it will come up again. i want to be able to knock it down.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)One can understand these things about Bernie and still support his candidacy as a Democrat; particularly, considering the track record of the front-runner.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)mopinko
(70,532 posts)and i looked up the bill that was mentioned, and he did indeed vote yes.
again, no disrespect was intended. at.all.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)mopinko
(70,532 posts)srsly, i am not trying to stir shit. i think having ammunition to shoot down stuff like this is important.
it came as a surprise to me.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Note that both Bernie and Paul voted initially for initial part of that one. Also, the 213-213 tie vote on expanding the air war.
Makes one realize how far to the Right Congress has moved on these war or peace issues. Frightening, really.
kath
(10,565 posts)Bernie has NOT consistently defended Israel, and according to that article tends to hold AIPAC somehwat at arm's length
Excerpt:
One longtime Hill-watcher who focuses on Israel issues placed Sanders somewhere on a continuum between California Senator Dianne Feinstein an often outspoken Israel critic who is Jewish and Senator Chuck Schumer, the New York Jewish lawmaker known as a forceful defender of the Jewish state.
A search of the Congressional Record reveals very few statements about Israel by Sanders on the floor of the House or the Senate. In 2002, during the debate over the resolution that authorized President George W. Bush to use military force in Iraq, Sanders, then a House member, asked whether an invasion of Iraq would worsen the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And in 2008, Sanders was one of 100 co-sponsors of a Senate resolution to recognize the 60th anniversary of Israels founding.
Pro-Israel lobbyists have been among those to find Sanders elusive. Hes someone whos sort of avoided everyone, said Ben Chouake, who leads the hawkish pro-Israel group NORPAC. Hes one of the few offices that, when we try to get an appointment to come talk to him, we just cant get in I dont think hes antagonistic or anything like that.
In Vermont, a small group of AIPAC-linked Jewish activists do have Sanders ear on Israel-related matters. Yoram Samets, a Burlington businessman and a member of AIPACs national council, said that he has been in touch with Sanders for the past decade, but that Sanders does not sign any AIPAC-backed letters. His Vermont colleague Senator Patrick Leahy does not, either.
This relative silence on Israel-related issues, however, seems to have broken during and after the 2014 Gaza conflict, during which 72 Israelis and over 2,100 Palestinians were killed, the majority of them civilians. In an undated statement on his Senate website , Sanders decried the Israeli attacks that killed hundreds of innocent people including many women and children, calling the bombings disproportionate and completely unacceptable.
mopinko
(70,532 posts)i knew the du brain trust would supply me w some ammunition.
StandingInLeftField
(972 posts)...from the perspective of a jilted third-party proponent.
mopinko
(70,532 posts)i posted it here because i found it pretty odd considering the source.
i wonder what the back story is.
azmom
(5,208 posts)SocialistWorker.org has argued Sanders' campaign will serve to corral and co-opt the emerging left into supporting the Democratic Party--and make it harder, not easier, to build an independent, left-wing alternative.
azmom
(5,208 posts)The democrats on a lot of issues. They would prefer a third party in our political system.
Bernie is an interesting mix. I like him and support most of his views.
mopinko
(70,532 posts)honestly, this is the first thing i have seen that gives me a seconds pause about him.
i had no idea that socialist dont like him.
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)does that have something to do with this?
peacebird
(14,195 posts)mopinko
(70,532 posts)but he was the best man on the ballot.
so, are you calling me a troll, then?
peacebird
(14,195 posts)mopinko
(70,532 posts)chuy is a great guy, but he was in over his head.
rahm has actually done a lot of good things for the city. but he is subject to the usual derangement syndromes that so many dems are tarred with.
but whatever. think what you like about him.
but when you say my "concern is suspect", you are calling me a troll. least you could do is own it.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)are like Baskins & Robbins; there are at least 47 varieties with flavor of the week changing weekly.
azmom
(5,208 posts)They think he is weak sauce.
That is why Bernie describes himself as a democratic socialist.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/121680/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialist-not-just-socialist
good article.
TBF
(32,213 posts)my view is that if we can get Bernie in he will do less damage than Hillary (who would do less damage than Bush, etc...)
Most of us would rather see the capitalism gone, but that is not going to happen without a revolution in this country. I don't think people are there yet, but as evidenced in Madison, Wisconsin, last night - they may be ready to vote for a candidate who has a history of fighting corporations. That's a step in the right direction.
azmom
(5,208 posts)Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)"In political science, Duverger's law is a principle that asserts that plurality rule elections structured within single-member districts tend to favor a two-party system."
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)Seriously?
mopinko
(70,532 posts)i do see it. she doesnt.
really, not concern trolling. at all.
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)kath
(10,565 posts)And at the very least could be a resource for further research on his votes: http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_War_+_Peace.htm
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Even inconvenient facts most of us probably don't like. That's a really good thing, IMHO.
azmom
(5,208 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)mopinko
(70,532 posts)like i said in another reply, i walk the walk, and when i do i like to be prepared. i dont want to be blindsided at the door.
marym625
(17,997 posts)I will go with the majority on locking this because it seems it should be in GDP. I understand your wont to do that
Can you perhaps edit the OP in such a way to make it less uhn, just less? Ask the questions on what facts there are to debunk such things and just link to it without excerpts of the trash talk?
I agree we should all have the information and we should be able to get it easily. I was actually thinking of doing an OP that would be a place for just that. It's important to have.
So, if I have made any sense here and the other hosts agree and you agree, maybe this could be made better?
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Let's say, an hour, at least.
That way, at least there was an effort to find out how much of this can be debunked or confirmed.
That would set a good example for the others.
marym625
(17,997 posts)I believe that the op could be shortened a great deal and people can go to the link. No need to have all that in the op. We got the idea from a small part of it
a member of as long standing as i am is being suspected of trolling?
is that what you are saying?
wow. just wow.
i posted because the du brain trust is the best. i seriously want to be able to answer these accusations. they will come up again. i dont want to be blindsided at someone's door.
those that know me know that i walk the walk. and i try to be fully prepared when i do.
do you really think anyone would bother to go to the link?
i was leery that people would take this the wrong way. if this gets locked, i would find it quite the black mark on this group.
do bernie's supporters really want this to become a pinata in gdp?
srsly?
marym625
(17,997 posts)I said nothing eeven close to that. Dear lord how is asking you to shorten the post accusing you of trolling?
And I agreed about the information.
Wow. Just wow!
mopinko
(70,532 posts)i can see no other possible reason for the blowback on this beside people thinking i have some sort of ulterior motive. iow, trolling.
marym625
(17,997 posts)I am not trying to cause problems here or be mean or anything like that. I am actually shocked at your reaction. Especially after others have said it doesn't belong here. I was trying to make everyone happy.
TM99
(8,352 posts)I think this is better suited to GD-P as well.
I don't think the poster is intentionally trying to troll or create a disturbance. I just don't think it meets the TOS of our group which is to stay positive and focus on Sander's accomplishments as his candidacy moves forward.
This is a smear piece. It is designed to provoke and distort his record demanding defensiveness especially in this Safe Haven.
As others in this thread feel the same way, I would ask the OP to voluntarily delete this OP and re-post in GD-P.
Thanks.
I tried to just have it made shorter and was accused of saying she's a troll. Never said. Never implied it. Never even crossed my mind.
swilton
(5,069 posts)Last edited Thu Jul 2, 2015, 03:47 PM - Edit history (2)
I've also read former Vermonter/political science scholar/activist Michael Parenti's critique of Bernie Sanders.
As a Veteran for Peace (VfP) lifetime member I have thought deeply about some of Sanders' positions and have two points to raise.
1. The criticisms are coming from the framework of ideological purists such as Greens/Socialists, etc. The problem with those positions are that they are unrealistic - those parties exist in their ideological purity in European governments where coalitions are the norm and it is where ideological purity is beneficial because at the end-of the day it will be diluted. If candidates in the US were ideologically pure, their candidacies would be hopeless. Furthermore, because Sanders has mentioned on more than one occasion that he favors publicly funded elections, the Greens/Socialists/Libertarians/Justice parties will have a better chance than they do now in the long run....The US is no longer a democracy, the ecological clock is seconds away from midnight, if there were such a thing as an ideologically pure candidate, there is no time to wait for one.
2. The second point is that Sanders will listen. Economics/income inequality is his strong suit - if he addresses that issue the rest will follow. I once heard Daniel Ellsberg tell VfP members for the 2004 election that even though Kerry wasn't perfect, we should hold our noses and vote for him...Kerry would listen to us whereas Bush ii would not...The same can be said of Sanders.
marym625
(17,997 posts)swilton
(5,069 posts)mopinko
(70,532 posts)and i agree.
if it needs to be said, and i guess it does, i love bernie. that is why this struck me as odd.
Paka
(2,760 posts)Very important points!
KoKo
(84,711 posts)We need to dig back to counter the OP because the OP doesn't take into consideration the WAY that Senate Votes and Parliamentary Procedure have to do with voting on Legistlation. Bernies Votes are out there and in many cases he Proposed "Amendments" that got shot down and to keep the vote open to Dem Scrutiny he voted a YES...that is held against him without looking at all the "Procedural Votes" occurred before and what his position was and why he might have had to compromise to take a Standing View.
The way our House and Senate Game Us with Lobbyist Enfluence and the the Senate RULES that are PARTY INSIDER BUSINESS...it seemed to me the Original OP was not really looking at the Circumstances of the Vote..but, doing a "Hit Piece" causing us to do our Own Research to Refute it. And if we approved their Post WRONG....they would come up with another set of examples that also needed to be verified.......but....the OP would have "done its DEED" to make Sanders seem like a "Cave In" when in reality he was abiding by the Senate Rules and the Parliamentarian's direction.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)There are some truths but they seem to be skewed for effect. Just MHO.
Calling Sanders hawkish is pretty amusing.
djean111
(14,255 posts)of, their hawkishness kind of ludicrous and illogical. So for me it is a feh.
eta - it always makes me laugh how the very people who screech "PURIST" don't get it that we are not purists. It really seems to disconcert them when they fail.
aintitfunny
(1,421 posts)Someone has gone through a lot of effort to pull this together and stir discontent among those who would follow Bernie Sanders. There appears to be an agenda.
He was an anti-war activist during the Viet Nam era. I don't think that he has ever claimed to be simplistically anti war, so much as anti unnecessary war. No one, outside of a few Bush cronies and Dick Cheney like war - in general.
Any public servants's voting record will have questionable votes either by some necessity or the need for compromise to get something done, that is politics, that is reality. I am also certain that every elected official has regrets.
Posting this in the Bernie Sanders section give unworthy credence to the individual who compiled a one sided list of purported betrayals without providing any real details.
mopinko
(70,532 posts)that is why i was hoping to get some insight and details if anyone here had them. i made that as clear as i possibly could.
of course it is a slanted article. but the one specific, the vote cited, that i checked turned out to be true. rather than spend the day with the google, i asked it here.
isnt debunking propaganda something that supporters ought to be ready to do?
it is really the first thing i have heard about him that is out of character. most of the anti-bern stuff around here has been overblown conjecture. so i wanted the facts.
i didnt write it. i didnt find it. a hillary supporter really did post it on fb. she isnt the sharpest knife in the drawer, tho she thinks she is. i debunk her posts all the time. i was looking forward to debunking this one.