So I guess we got the meme

[peacebird]

Hillary's supporters are going to keep posting berniesoblack, and that Bernie has no black support. Over, and over, and over, and over, and over.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

1. I think Hillary supporters will find that biting them in the butt.

The (secondary) message from BLM was that NO politician gets to take their votes for granted. Not even Hillary.

The primary message, of course, was that the candidate who WILL win their votes is the one who plans to DO something about police brutality and murders of black Americans. (And 'police wannabes' who kill blacks to 'help' the police.)

[Triana]

14. And I've heard Sanders mention that every speech ie: education vs prison

police brutality, etc.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

19. And you've heard it in 'white messaging'.

He needs to be able to speak to each audience in ways they receive it. And to do that means he needs to LISTEN first, and take what they're saying seriously. This can be the biggest opportunity of the campaign, if he takes it seriously and actually works with BLM going forward in an honest way. He can win a lot of AA votes. Or he can keep giving the same speeches that work so well with white Americans, and lose the AA vote.

[Triana]

21. Specifically, what should he change? n/t

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

27. For that, I'll pass you to the BLM folks.

Read the excerpted interview in this diary

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/19/1403596/-About-the-blacklivesmatter-Protest-at-Netroots-Nation

But it can't just be words that change. He's also going to have to spend something even more precious on this - Time. He's got to take the time to meet on an ongoing basis with BLM and other leaders dealing with racial injustice.

We have to walk and chew gum at the same time. Bernie's message and actions on economic injustice are great, but he's got to be there on racial injustice as well. We had candidates who were trying to emphasize one over the other. Bernie can't just talk about it as a satellite to his message of economic injustice, a tacked on thing. It has to be coequal.

If he can do that, he'll blow Hillary out of the water. Because she can't do the reverse. She can't make the economic injustice message just as important, or she pisses off all of the big money behind her race.

[jwirr]

73. That is very true but I pity the candidates - we have a system in which we exhaust our candidates

already. If they take on regular meetings with each individual group that wants to hear their own message as the primary message then I don't know how anyone is going to have the time. Especially when the economic message does refer to all of us. Candidates get their message to people through public speaking. The speech is the message. As we saw with W all too often that is to selected audiences who are supporters. I would rather see the candidates hire staff than take on specific group meetings. But that takes money from donors which is another problem.

That said - it seems to me that the message BLM is sending SHOULD refer to all of us not as a black issue but as an issue of conscience. No one in the nation should feel like the killing of unarmed people is ever okay. We should all be clamoring to end this as soon as we can. We should all be making it clear we do not support police violence in any way.

If meeting with this group regularly can do that then that is what we should be doing. But there are things that cannot be done by any one candidate for federal office. It will not help one little bit to get a president in office if what really needs to be done is elect better officials at that state level. And a lot of what we saw in Ferguson MO was controlled at the state or community level. A totally corrupt system of white supremacists controlling the police force and the courts and who knows what else they control. We have a black president and he had only a limited way of controlling any of it.

The Constitution dealt with the issue of states control vs federal control a long time ago. That the solution is not adequate in this situation is very clear. But at this point the problem is what are we going to do about the communities all over the US that have used the political system to virtually control POC as they do in Ferguson MO. One solution is to make sure that all the victims of this be involved in that political system. GOTV. Stop voter suppression. Kick the supremacists out of office. And the federal government should use the power to back up this change.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

75. I think we're back to getting money out of politics being a solution there.

And that Bernie's decision to run a campaign not dependent upon fundraising all the time helps him get there. Much of a candidate's time is wasted simply 'dialing for dollars'. If Bernie isn't spending time fundraising, he's got more time to work with groups on policy to meet their needs.

[jwirr]

80. That has been needed a long time because there is nothing that shouts white control so much

as money in politics. Very few of the rest of us have a lot of money to use on anything other than the necessities of life.

[Zorra]

146. If they had simply asked," Hey Bernie, come on

over for a beer and let us explain our concerns so you can give us some idea of how you plan to get the cops under control" before doing their best to try to sabotage our only serious hope of stopping the cops and the murder, in service to the Democratic candidate promoted by the wealthiest white folks on the planet, I could buy that.

Instead, they got pwnd by the same wealthy white people who control the system that has allowed the cops to kill them with impunity since the 17th century.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

147. They didn't. So get over it.

They've got a good cause, and it's done with. All we can do is work for a better future. I'm pretty sure Bernie is smart enough to work with them in future. A lot of the people who are focused on 'what they did wrong' and 'how they got pwned', are missing the big picture and getting 'pwned' themselves. They only get to set us against each other if we let them. So don't let them. When somebody who is doing good work does something you think was less than helpful, let it go, and find a better way forward to work with them.

If they got 'pwned', the people doing all of the real damage to Bernie's campaign now are his own supporters who are overreacting and attacking black voters I'd rather have voting for Bernie.

[merrily]

155. Thanks for that link. From your link:

Last edited Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:06 AM - Edit history (2)

I want to make a specific ask to the presidential candidates, specifically the Democrats who are trying to reach into poor communities, people in black and latino communities. Your reform efforts have to be much more radical.

We need to hear that you are going to end detentions. We need to hear that you are going to ensure that ICE is out of jails. We need to hear that you are going to make sure that the one million black people who are currently living inside of US jails and prisons, that there are going to be real reform efforts to get them to be able to vote, that they will be able to have jobs when they come home.

We want to hear that you are going to divest from law enforcement, you're going to divest from the militarization of law enforcement, that you're going to put money into poor communities. We're not hearing that right now. We're hearing a lot of jibber-jabber.

I agree with all that, except I need to think more and get more specifics about ICE in jails.

I don't know what Bernie has said about that.

As for the vote, Sanders has advocated in Congress quite a lot for the vote in general. He's even pushed to make election day a national holiday. I don't know what he has said about people voting after they get out of jail, but I believe strongly in that. As far as jobs, Sanders has certainly advocated for education and jobs. He's also advocated for de-militarization of local law enforcement, which makes me wonder about the comment that they're not hearing that.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

157. I still think it devolves ack to something a lot of folks around here often don't want to hear

no matter how often I've said it. Messaging has to be very specifically targeted, and tone matters.

I always get angry, dismissive pushback from people when I bring that up, because they always want to blame the lack of communication on 'the other people'. "They're not listening"..."We've told them over and over", they just "don't want to hear it". Unfortunately, it's in vogue to proclaim that any sort of talk about effective communication is just another method to 'control' or 'suppress' the oppressed people by those who are among the 'oppressors'. That it's merely something for trolls, and a way to diminish the people to whom it's being suggested. But while certain trolls might use that, along with anything else, as a trolling tactic, it's still a universal constant that applies to every person, every message. To most effectively communicate, you need to match tone and message to the intended recipients.

And yes, you can turn that around and talk about the messaging and the 'tone' of the BLM protest, but they chose their tone and messaging, and it DID get through to many people. Not all, the audience was too diverse. So some people got what they were saying, and others were totally passed by, and made up interpretations based on their own priorities, which, at the moment, are largely centered around the political races.

But more than ever it applies to political candidates. They have lots of different audiences, and if they want their messaging to get through to enough people to win elections, they have to master the art of communicating to all of those different crowds. Some people come by it by instinct, some by practice, and some treat it as a technical problem, employing focus groups, polling, surveys, etc, to fine tune the message. But all successful campaigns have figured out how to communicate with enough voters to win. And they're under the gun. They have a very specific timeframe in which to do that communication, and can't afford to simply brush off the idea that tone matters.

So no matter how much Bernie speaks in about the right issues, without the right messaging and tone, it's still going to pass a lot of people by, just as if he were one of those Peanuts adults going 'wah wah wah wah?' That's why it's so important that he's listening to those willing to tell him how to talk to them, and to take the time to talk to blacks and latinos on an ongoing basis to figure out the messaging that works.

[merrily]

158. You are one of my favorite posters on this board. But I stopped reading right here:

I always get angry, dismissive pushback from people when I bring that up, because they always want to blame the lack of communication on 'the other people'.

You brought "that" up on this thread and I replied to it. The above was part of your reply to me. Did you see my reply to you as angry and dismissive? If so, please elaborate.

OK, now I am going back to read the rest of your reply.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

159. OK, 'always' was a poor choice of words. But did you also notice what the problem was?

I chose my tone and messaging poorly there

And I'm sure that's part of my problem in getting my own message across. I know that tone and messaging is important, but I've never had much training in exactly HOW to message outside of a therapeutic setting.

[merrily]

162. NO. You are a fantastic poster, IMO.

I truly wanted to know if I had replied poorly.

And it's my lousy messaging if you didn't get that.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

163. Because you're in my 'wheelhouse' when it comes to messaging.

You're among the people who respond well to my default choice of messaging and tone. I don't actually do well in reaching different audiences myself, because, let's face it, I've been wrapped up in white, suburban academia my entire life. I've just barely started interacting with people who aren't already a lot like me, whose problems aren't my problems, but far more serious. Being unemployed these last few years has actually opened up some lines of communication that never existed before. But I've got a looooong way to go to actually be able to see from they eyes of many segments of the population.

(Gotta run, the dog is messaging me that if I don't take her out, I'll be cleaning up soon.)

[merrily]

165. Maybe, but I like you a lot more than plenty of people who are theoretically in the same

wheelhouse as I am. I'd like to think that at least something depends on the messages you convey and not only on how you convey them.

[merrily]

161. I agree with almost everything in your post.

But no, I would never turn it around and talk about the tone or messaging of BLM. In their shoes, with all they face hourly and with all their pain, I don't know what I would do. Also, they have no professional handlers, that I know of. I fault them for nothing. The only thing I would say to them, if I could--and this is not intended as criticism at all--choose the most effective way.

IMO, what they did at Netroots was effective because it got a lot of attention and also said, in an unmistakeable way, "We have problems with Democrats, too," something that may have come as a surprise to many Democrats and Republicans, though not many pros.

Please forgive a very frivolous reference, but it keeps running through my mind. On a Housewives reality show recently, a woman shouted to her castmates, "Nice doesn't work with you people." And, after that happened, the people who had been talking down to her nonstop for a few seasons now apologized.

Will they stop? Maybe, but at least they know she's unhappy. In the face of so very much, I could never have been as "nice" as African Americans have been for so very long. I will not fault BLM.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

167. Yes, as I posted in another comment

as the NN guy (Elon James) said, critique there is like complaining about people shouting for help in a fire, telling them they're not 'doing it right'. Handlers or no, I think they did a good job at it anyway - the message got across to enough, and then passed through chains of willing translators to reach as many people as were actually open to receiving it. There are still a lot of folks so wrapped up in 'the elections are everything' that they're unwilling to even consider that it was not an 'attack on' their candidate, but that's as it will be. There comes a time when you're past the point of diminishing returns in terms of time spent to get a message across.

To be sure, I have my own selfish reasons for being delighted that they did what they did. They're shouting out that they won't simply have their votes taken for granted out of a desperate need for basic and direct threats to their survival. But I'm hopeful that they will succeed, because I feel the left has been trying to make it known that the path to change is by making demands in exchange for our votes, not simply to continue to give them away in 'lesser evilhood', that that path just leads ever to greater and greater 'lesser evils'. Their success will be a powerful example of that political truth.

We need to support them as much as possible now, to win this fight, so that we can win other fights that will help more people survive less obvious and immediate threats to their lives down the road. To actually strengthen the safety nets and grow programs that make us all more equal, and equally strong. To finally achieve true equality for every human, to keep the homeless housed, the hungry fed, the sick the care they need.

[merrily]

177. Agree.

[ybbor]

25. What is "white messaging"?

Can you clue me in?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

30. Well, first off, it's the default messaging used by white politicians.

It's messaging aimed directly at white voters, talking about the things they're facing day in and day out. Some of those things are also faced by minorities, but it's not aimed TO them. You can tack on things that are tailored to AA voters, but given how much AA's have been promised by white politicians over the years and not gotten, they're a lot less trusting of mere words.

There are "TWO Americas". The America a white person lives in, and the America a black person lives in right beside him. If you want to win black votes, you've got to show black voters that you actually can see this, and that you've got a plan to bring the two closer to being a single country.

[ybbor]

37. Thanks for the clarification

So how does that happen? What ways does a politician do that? Can they?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

52. The very first step

is giving direct candidate access to people who have to live in black America. Get as many viewpoints in on creating the messaging as possible. Listen to them, spend the time to understand them, to understand WHY they care about the things they do, not just use the fact that they do. Black Lives Matter is pretty straightforward. As a country, we're still unable to abandon the past. It might not be legal to buy and sell black people as livestock any more, but our 'legal and justice' systems still act like their purpose is to protect white people from black people, to treat them like runaway or rebellious slaves, and to casually kill them if they dare to disobey police, or simply just because they are walking in the wrong place at the wrong time. To jail or kill them for things that get white people a warning, then pass it off as a 'suicide' or an 'accident'. And a policeman getting even indicted for such murders is incredibly rare, and convictions next to non-existent. Even among civilians, any white person killing a black person is far more likely to walk free than a black person who kills a white.

So get in black advisors, and listen to them. Let THEM craft your message, and have them helping you to work on the policies to put an end to the ability of police to just murder black people and walk away free.

[ybbor]

62. I agree with everything you say

I also just read a comment to an OP I posted that said the economic equality doesn't mean shit if you can't live long enough to enjoy them.

Our nation's police forces are seriously dangerous. But really only for POC. The fact that white people can walk around with REAL assault weapons and just get talked to by the police, where as carrying a toy gun or a BB gun in a store that sells them gets a black person, almost said man, but Tamir Rice was only a child, gets shot without out even a warning. It's fucking disgusting. As another poster said cleaning up our inherently racist police forces possibly from Anonymous uncovering the KKK member officers.

The idea that our nation no longer has a race issue as that clueless Justice Roberts claims is so completely ignorant! Just look around our inner cities and see for yourself. Or worse yet our prisons.

Thank you again for all the input. I am on your side.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

65. I like to think 'my side' is everyone's side.

Whether or not they know it. We all just get tangled up in fighting over tactics, strategy, precedence of issues, who is the best person to put in the WH to try and address all of our many problems.

But I believe we have it within ourselves to multi-task. That we don't have to give up on social or racial justice to get economic justice, or to give up on economic justice to get racial and social justice. We can work to end all injustice.

[ybbor]

68. You know not 10 minutes ago I said the same thing

I said I want a world where the only pronouns used are "we, us, our". So yes we are all in it together. Without the feeling of belonging for all, we will never reach our desired goals.

Keep speaking the truth, it becomes contagious!

[2banon]

82. It's both a Class and Race Analysis which always needs to be understood as the underpinning

issue when dealing with socio-economic justice and equality. BLM supporters seem to be disregarding the full dynamics of both Class and Race. In other words the struggle for achieving socio-economic justice and equality is a shared struggle against the oppression from the Privileged Class.

I'm having difficulty articulating my point. but I hope readers get the gist of what I'm trying to say.

Your point still stands, and I mostly agree with it.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

90. I never took the formal classwork

in sociology and race that gives me the right language to use myself, so I've picked it up informally, and no doubt use some of it incorrectly, understand it but poorly. But we all have to try to learn to work together, rather than to let those who would keep us attacking each other. And part of that is understanding that we're not always the center of the story. Things happen around us and to us that are not aimed AT us, that are not about us. Right now, Bernie and his supporters, myself included, are largely focused on the 'class' aspect of that dualism, and the BLM protesters are telling us that the 'race' aspect has more urgency at the moment, that our 'class' problems are long term, and will take long term solutions, but that we're in a moment of racial crisis, that things have gotten so visibly bad that we must address them now, that we CAN address them now IF we have the will to.

(I'm not saying that the problem is actually any worse now than it's always been, but finally, thanks to technology, white people can finally no longer avoid seeing what black Americans have no choice not to see day in and day out, and we've finally gotten to a point that, with the political will, we finally have a chance to make a change long overdue.)

[2banon]

101. Excellent points, well said.

my 'formal education; is real spotty.. and I never read Marx, however i've picked up enough here and there combined with life experience to get it. And you're right on all points. The problem I'm having on the current dust up of the week is the fact that there is no real dialogue. The BLM tactics may be getting a lot of "attention", but it isn't the sort of attention which will achieve the desired goal.

Case in point: the notion of blocking entrances to Hospital emergency rooms to disallow patients (of every race) who are facing life threatening medical events/conditions requiring immediate medical attention and procedures to save their lives isn't merely and an "inconvenience". My daughter very nearly lost her life due to this action taken on May 30th here in Oakland where the vast majority of the patients are PoC, and mostly AA.!!!

yet discussing that specific strategy here on DU (having nothing at all to do with Bernie Sanders rally or any other candidate) with BLM supporters/members got me a 'sorry you were "inconvenienced" response.

Where does anyone take that ? In all seriousness, I'm at a complete loss where to go from there in terms of "dialogue"..

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

104. Well, as you might guess from my name and handle

I'm a nurse, so no, I would not approve of any group blocking entrances to ERs, any more than I approve of protesters blocking clinics that provide abortion services. And I would hope that any group like OWS that was blocking a road would let ambulances through. That simply doesn't fly with me. But obviously that doesn't apply to a political townhall.

[2banon]

112. Totally didn't get that in your handle.

omg. bloodaxe? !

in agreement..

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

113. It's my name and the appropriate degree.

Erich Sebastian Bloodaxe, PhD, MSA, BA, BS, BSN, ADN, RN (and certified phlebotomy tech too)

I spent a lot of time in school, but the last couple of degrees were in nursing, with BSN being the bachelor of science in nursing.

I'm still waffling whether I'll add on another grad degree in nursing, possibly going on to the nurse practitioner licensure with an emphasis on public health nursing, administration or geriatrics.

[2banon]

131. Oh..kay I see that now.

If you have the inclination and time, I'd go on to the nurse practitioner license.. I don't think there's enough of good ones! ;hi:

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

132. I'm certainly thinking about it.

Once my ties to Ohio are broken, I'm thinking of looking to the IHS (Indian Health Service) for work, work out on one of the Rezzes, maybe. IHS is chronically underfunded, so they have a lot of slots for NP's as opposed to doctors.

[merrily]

168. LOL, I knew you were a nurse because you had posted that, but I never put it together

with Bloodaxe. I thought it was the name on your birth certificate IRL, which some posters use. I wondered if you were a member of one of the First Nations.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

169. Well,

my handle is my name, but although family rumour talks about a little possible Blackfoot or Cherokee blood, I've never found any real evidence. I'm a European mutt, and the name comes from Norwegian traditions, not First Nations.

I just fell into spending more time with a few NA's over on Daily Kos, where they're some of the more outspoken and active members, despite their small numbers. They've raised all sorts of money for various programs on several rezzes - a battered women's shelter, a food pantry and learning annex, and propane for folks in the winter. They're also some of the most giving people I've ever met, even those living in deep poverty themselves.

If you have any spare income and like good jewelry or photography, you might check out the link in my sig. Some wonderful people who are desperately trying to survive amidst a near complete collapse in the tourist trade that used to keep them afloat, while still spending a lot of time advocating for others.

[merrily]

172. Ok, correct assumption, wrong nations.

I stopped wearing jewelry, but I'll check the link for photos.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

174. I've got some metal allergy issues myself, so I don't buy the jewelry either

but I do try to donate occasionally - Ajijaakwe has also started a Patreon page for her photos and writing.

[AOR]

124. I think your point is clear and well stated...

There is no possibility of separation. The battle is between the ruling class (those that own and control the means of production, the commons, the resources, and all the power and those who profit mightily off of that power structure) and the rest of us who own nothing but our own labor and have no power whatsoever. The level of confusion here in the discussions on this - whether deliberately created or just plain confusion - is beyond anything I have ever witnessed on any political forum. Institutionalized racism is the by-product of capitalist social relations and there is no other narrative that fits the historical material reality other than that. Hope you don't mind but this seems to fit your post from a class perspective. I have no idea how this doesn't apply to the underlying foundations of the struggle of Black Lives Matter. Maybe I'm missing something.

The Class Struggle and the American Working Class

Written by John Peterson

"For millions of people around the world, the United States represents the ultimate citadel of reaction: Ronald Reagan, George W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, the CIA, imperialism, sanctions, war, drones, anti-communism, discrimination, and exploitation. The American people are alleged to be a homogeneous bloc of ignorant, indifferent racists who blindly and enthusiastically back the reactionary economic and military policies of their government. Many people—even on the left— imagine that the US is immune from class conflict, and that life for the majority in the “belly of the beast” is prosperous and peaceful. However, while there may be an element of truth in some of this, the reality is far more complex. The United States is in fact a society riven with deep class contradictions. It has an enormous and powerful working class and an inspiring revolutionary past—and future."

(Snip)

Class struggle

"So just what is the class struggle? Simply defined, the class struggle is the struggle over the surplus wealth created by the producing classes. Will that surplus go towards further enriching the minority that controls society? Or will it go towards improving the quality of life of the working majority who actually produce the wealth? Or perhaps we can live in a world without exploiters, where society democratically determines what is to be done with the wealth we collectively produce?

The ruling class is that class which controls the state and owns the means of production of society—the land and natural resources, the workshops and factories, the banks. The actual producers of wealth are those who own nothing but their ability to work, and are therefore either owned outright as slaves, tied to the land as feudal serfs, perhaps own a tiny plot of land on which they scrape out an existence while still having to work and pay debts to others, or sell their labor power for a wage to a capitalist. That is the simplified essence of the class struggle. In the modern era, that struggle is above all between the working class and the capitalist class."

(Snip)

Class society

"All of this applies to the US just as much as any other country dominated by capitalism—you cannot have an exploiting capitalist class without a working class that is being exploited. Long before US capitalism entered its predatory, imperialist phase, the ruling class enriched itself on the vast natural resources and labor of millions of people right here on the American continent.

In fact, America’s more than 155 million workers are among the most exploited on the planet. Based on an extremely high level of labor productivity, American workers create vast amounts of wealth for the capitalists, but receive only a small ratio of that back in the form of wages. The effects of a strike of even a small portion of the American workers would be devastating to the profits of the capitalists. For example, just 36,000 unionized dock workers load and unload every ship on the West coast of the United States. This means that every single container imported to the US Pacific coast from Asia and beyond must first pass through the hands of a relative handful of union workers. Even a one-day strike of these dockers would result in billions of dollars in losses to the capitalists. This is a clear indication of the colossal power of the US working class.

The working class is the overwhelming majority of the USA; the wonders of its cities, railroads, highways, mines, industry, and vast tracts of farmland are the result of the workers’ sweat, tears, blood, and brains. And yet, Americans themselves are rarely taught the truth about their own history. There is a very simple reason for this. If American workers were to understand their true power and their class’s repeated attempts to change society, they might be tempted to engage in open class struggle again and again—and this represents a mortal threat to the continuation of the capitalist system."


Full article at link...

http://www.marxist.com/the-class-struggle-and-the-american-working-class.htm

[2banon]

128. Thank you! THIS ^ should be it's own OP in GD!

you described exactly my meaning, articulating the fundamental principles at play. Much appreciated.

you said: (emphasis mine)

The battle is between the ruling class (those that own and control the means of production, the commons, the resources, and all the power and those who profit mightily off of that power structure) and the rest of us who own nothing but our own labor and have no power whatsoever.

Exactly. However John Peterson points out in one of the excerpts you posted: (all emphasis mine)

In fact, America’s more than 155 million workers are among the most exploited on the planet. Based on an extremely high level of labor productivity, American workers create vast amounts of wealth for the capitalists, but receive only a small ratio of that back in the form of wages. The effects of a strike of even a small portion of the American workers would be devastating to the profits of the capitalists. For example, just 36,000 unionized dock workers load and unload every ship on the West coast of the United States. This means that every single container imported to the US Pacific coast from Asia and beyond must first pass through the hands of a relative handful of union workers. Even a one-day strike of these dockers would result in billions of dollars in losses to the capitalists. This is a clear indication of the colossal power of the US working class.

That's the point which always gives me hope. Unfortunately that hope becomes somewhat diminished when confronted with the major obstacle in the lack of realization of this fact by the majority of the working class (all races).

Or at least seemingly so. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but Peterson seems to agree.

The United States is in fact a society riven with deep class contradictions

and this:

The working class is the overwhelming majority of the USA; the wonders of its cities, railroads, highways, mines, industry, and vast tracts of farmland are the result of the workers’ sweat, tears, blood, and brains. And yet, Americans themselves are rarely taught the truth about their own history. There is a very simple reason for this. If American workers were to understand their true power and their class’s repeated attempts to change society, they might be tempted to engage in open class struggle again and again—and this represents a mortal threat to the continuation of the capitalist system."

I'll go on to read the rest of the piece but I wanted to let you know how much I appreciated your input as it helped me regain clarity on my own instincts. What I'm seeing now I've seen before on a much lower scale regarding an isolated struggle over ownership and control of KPFA and the Pacifica Radio network. Founded by anti-war Conscientious Objectors and leftist academics in the late 40's (KPFA Berkeley, KPFK L.A. KPFT Houston, WBAI New York, and WPFW Washington DC) . Also known as the "Save KPFA- Save Pacifica" movement which aimed to wrest the ownership and control out of the hands of Corporate functionaries based in Washington DC who took it over in the 90's. The incalcitrant forces of Identity Politics which emerged almost immediately was just beyond belief.

It took on a nearly psychotic level of insanity. We "engaged" with each other nationally vis a vis discussion boards as well as held in-person conferences at each of the station locations. Over a period of 5 years, it just got worse and worse. And although i had become initially involved for the long haul, I couldn't take it anymore and I finally left "the struggle" because it was simply too toxic, and too insane for me.

I mention it because it is sort of a micro example of what I'm seeing again wrt BLM and the targeting of Leftists and Sanders and exemplifies exactly what I witnessed with the Save Pacifica movement. But this is on a larger scale.

Again, thank you and Welcome to DU!

[AOR]

129. Yep... 2banon

We (the working class) are deeply divided on so many levels and so many fronts that often there seems no answers but only frustration. The ruling class thrives on those divides. But we keep fighting, what is real and what isn't, what is helpful and what isn't, who stands with Capital over Labor regardless of the disguises. The enemies of the working class and class struggle wear many different disguises. The enemy who poses as the friend of the people and the struggling, and yet does the bidding of Capital must be exposed in all places. The fightback is just beginning 2banon. When the oppressed and struggling are ready and united we will be heard in full force one way or another.


Thanks for the welcome and feel free to use anything you find useful... here or elsewhere. I posted a BAR article last night and I'm frightened to put anything else up for the time being after such a hornets nest reception. I've heard bee stings are good for a host of ailments though so I might dip a few more toes into the hornets nest.

[2banon]

133. ok. I missed that post..

if you have a link handy I'd be interested in having a peak from a distance! don't want to get stung either!

[AOR]

135. It was a Paul Sreet article from BAR...

Paul Street writes and gets published at a lot more places than BAR so the attacks on Black Agenda Report right out of the box were kind of amusing. I thing bravenak got pissed because a small time charlie noob was challenging some of the "Social Justice vs Economic Justice" narrative. My posting style isn't exactly Leave It Beaver so it sometimes draws ire very quickly. I don't alert on anything though. I welcome all hatred, red-baiting, and discussion

Anyway here is the link 2banon. Overall I thought it was a really good analysis.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026990456

[Admiral Loinpresser]

141. There are several Americas.

Red lives don't matter. Brown lives don't matter. Latino and AA voters will get attention and native people will be ignored as usual, because they are a smaller demographic.

[merrily]

164. It's a fine line between tailoring a message and pandering.

There is some history here, too. Back in the day, there were separate places, by law in the South and "because" in other places. African American vaudeville theaters, African American baseball league, etc. And then, the "good" thing for white people to do became integration, melting pot, etc--don't treat anyone differently than you would someone who looks and sounds like you. Turned out melting pot didn't work so well, especially if the stew didn't contain your color. Then we went to celebrating differences and now we have black twitter--segregation in a medium where color is invisible.

Bernie's idea of being a good person may be still be "don't treat anyone differently than you would someone who looks and sounds like you." He may see going to a predominantly African American church as pandering, even intruding. I think he needs to hire people of color of different ages as consultants, but maybe even that would seem to him as though he were doing something wrong.

[snagglepuss]

55. That is BS because BLM had every opportunity to put forward

a prepared statement and be heard but instead opted for mindless disruption. BLM didn't want to have a rational conversation. Bernie and O'Malley were there to listen but BLM weren't having none of that.


If BLM had stood up and presented a prepared statement with a list of demands and either O'Malley or Bernie had silenced or stopped them, or dismissed them; then, and only then, would there have been reasonable cause for their disruption. As it stands they are either fools without any sense of how to play their hand effectively or they are, consciously or unconsciously, simply tools for the HRC and the corporate agenda she represents.

[2banon]

86. This!^^^^^^10000!

[stranger81]

122. I hear what you're saying.

But communication is a two-way street. And no matter what he chooses to say, and no matter how long his record of advocacy and activism on civil rights issues is, this particular segment of the BLM movement is not listening, and simply readjust their Ready for Hillary buttons and move on to the next candidate they can trash.

[Trajan]

2. Every poster who posts stuff like this and other deceptive crap ...

Have found my ignore list, which has been very active of late ...

The deceivers have no place in my life ... They are gone ...

[peacebird]

3. I must admit I added one to mine this morning as well...

[orpupilofnature57]

11. Self obsess much or is it Narcissistic fibrosis ?

[daleanime]

18. The 'ignore' function is there to be used......

right?

[orpupilofnature57]

28. Yes, though I try not to .

[Trajan]

24. Not really

But I am concerned about my poor legs ... I went on a hike yesterday, and dang, my legs are killin me! ..

Thanks for your concern ...

[orpupilofnature57]

31. Glucosamine Chondroitin has helped my wife .

[JimDandy]

54. Yep...If Feigner BLaMer Memers gonna feigne

Doer DUers gonna shoo.

[Trajan]

74. WTF ?

Um ...

[JimDandy]

125. That wasn't clear?

Just agreeing with you about using the ignore button on DUers who are working to deceive.

[2banon]

107. working on that chore this morning. I'm done with it too.

my daughter's life (as well as many other lives) threatened by blockade of emergency hospital in Oakland (may 30) was not merely an "inconvenience as a certain BLM Du member put it.

The sad irony is most of the patients are PoC and a considerable number A.A.

It's Oakland after all

[HassleCat]

4. Seems fair

Remember when Tea Party types were circulating that song, "Barrack the Magic Negro? This isn't any worse than that.

[merrily]

7. False equivalency. The OP is not about far right of the Republican Party attacking

a Democratic candidate, i.e., a candidate of the party that is the chief rival of their own party, because of his race on a ground that is clearly made up.

[HassleCat]

32. Not that similar

I agree it's not the same, not even closely similar. It just seems to me the overall spirit is the same, and both are examples of making fun of someone for his "racial inauthenticity."

[merrily]

34. IMO, the only similarity is that race is somehow involved in both cases.

First, no one is accusing Sanders of being inauthentic about being white.

Moreover, "Magic Negro" or "Magical Negro" does not mean being inauthentic about being black. It means ascribing other than natural or simply human powers to one or more black persons.

Claiming the Sanders does not speak to people of color doesn't seem to have anything to do with ascribing magical powers to him because he is white.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_Negro

[TM99]

5. It is truly exhausting trying to fight it.

I have been doing so for almost an hour.

Like clockwork, it is Monday morning 930 east coast time, and the meme is out in force.

And what truly galls me is that it harms us minorities more than it helps us. It is cheapening the BlackLivesMatter movement by linking it with a divisive political ploy.

I have said over and over that I want to see the next step. I want protests at all Town Halls. I want protests with every candidate, Democratic or Republican. I want protests at both conventions. And I want leaders of the BLM to sit down with each candidate individually to air grievances, discuss goals, and to hammer out policy positions that support the truth of the importance of black lives.

I have gotten nothing rational or substantive in reply. No one seems to want to discuss the reality of a movement for real change.

It makes you wonder doesn't it?

[peacebird]

9. Yes.

[Autumn]

12. Perhaps it's time to stop fighting it.

You are right, no one here wants to discuss the reality of a movement for real change. They just want to use this event to tear down Bernie. Is that really worth fighting? They aren't going to succeed, Bernies Texas and Arizona events prove that. So why bother with them?

[merrily]

15. A lot of people here want to discuss a movement for real change, just not all people here.

I don't know that any DUer is going to be changing his or her candidate choice, so I don't know how much productive will come out of debate.

As far as succeeding, I feel as though I already have. More than anything, I wanted a lot of Americans to hear what people-centered politics sound like. Thousands of them are hearing it in every city Bernie visits. Also, he has been getting more and more air time, though Ed Schultz may be Sanders's only true fan in broadcasting. I don't know how many people that translates to, but I could not be happier. In fact, I think I will make another donation this week, since OS is kind enough to keep raising the goal, LOL. I've certainly gotten more than my money's worth from the ones I've already made, so time to chip in again.

[Snotcicles]

36. +1. Me too. nt

[orpupilofnature57]

91. +1 Me Too .

[Enthusiast]

136. Me too, too.

[TM99]

20. Old habits I suppose.

Perhaps I do need a break from it all, for at least a short while.

[merrily]

41. IMO, the way to take a break from the fighting is to post with

r "members who share similar interests and viewpoints."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1280

The groups exist so that people who share similar views can encourage each other, instead of fighting with each other.

Anyway, just know that, if you do take a break, I'll miss you and I would not be surprised if the whole group did not feel a loss in the force.

[TM99]

43. Oh, I won't take a break from DU or our Group.

I will just take a break from the worst shit disturbers and the meme posts that do not advance any of our political agendas.

You are not going to get rid of me that easy.

[merrily]

44. Glad to hear it!

[Autumn]

47. Sometimes, you just gotta step back. They won't change your mind and you ain't gonna change theirs

[jwirr]

94. I agree. When we give so much attention to a rediculous idea like that one - especially online -

we give it support by just keeping it going. I taught my daughters a long time ago that the way to fight bullying is for most people to just turn their backs. To show then that no one is interested in their idiocy.

[Autumn]

105. It's interesting that in all the anger, I haven't seen any one ask why isn't our President

an African American man, Congress and the Senate doing something to stop these police. That's supporters of all the candidate. None of them seem to care that the one's in power now do have voices and actions that can control these police departments and stop these killings. Instead they want to go after candidates that wont take office until 2017.

[jwirr]

110. Yes, just think about how many will be killed between now and 2017. We need to do something

now.

[Enthusiast]

137. The DOJ has failed. In many ways the DOJ has failed.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[dreamnightwind]

142. I'm pretty sure they are only going after the progressive wing of the party

not the corporate wing. I would be very happy for them to prove me wrong.

[stranger81]

123. That's how I feel.

As a rule, I try to make it a point not to be baited into engaging with someone making a disingenuous argument. And this criticism of Bernie is nothing if not disingenuous.

If BLM succeeds in torpedoing our first chance at a progressive candidate in the last forty years, just to coronate the status quo option . . . . Jesus, sometimes I just can't with this place.

[marym625]

69. I WILL! I WILL!

but later though, I really have to run.

I do have to go but I just had to say that. Have a great day. Hope someone listens to you SOON!!

[JustAnotherGen]

71. I don't think we have their leadership (BLM here) or

Any activists in the movement.

You have to get off DU in order to make that statement. They aren't coming here looking for insight from us.

So when you write this over and over again at DU - it is not being heard/read by these young folks. They aren't here - and I caan't speak for them.

You could do the outreach (they are on twitter) that some other folks at DU have done. . . hell invite them to join and explain it to you - what their next steps are. I think if enough people who want explanations or direction from them reach out - they will join here.

But I think we would both agree - we'd rather them reach out to folks in office and running - or run for office themselves - than spend too much time explaining themselves at a tiny little web site.

[TM99]

79. I appreciate your response.

I want to heae more of this not just from the young but others here who are in truth supportive of BLM.

Personally, yes, I am involved offline. I spent Sunday afternoon with some former students to talk about what they experienced at Netroot's Nation as well as the Phoenix Sander's speech on Saturday night. They are a diverse bunch with Asians, AA, bi-racials, and Hispanics all represented.

They all expressed an interest in being a part of his campaign here and taking seriously outreach to the minority communities here. They also want to know if the BLM movement is moving offline and into more protests like this. Yes, they protested the shootings, but this type of political protest is a different matter.

I wish we could get some of the BLM leadership to read and share on DU. Despite the memes, campaign fighting, and some bad apples, DU as a whole is progressive and would support this seriously.

[JustAnotherGen]

84. Thanks for this - gives me hope!

I think I'm pretty vocal about my community involvement as of late - but at our town 'Salsa Night' on Saturday on Main Street -

I was revved up by the strong voices of the young - and the silent in my community that wanted to say 'hey' at me. The diversity and how they want to 'own their town' --

How do we translate that to rest of the country? And maybe it's going to have be them - but we have to mentor them.

[TM99]

87. Yes, I follow your posts as I agree with much of what you say

even if we currently support different candidates in the primary.

I guess as Gen Xer's we are now of that age where we are the mentors and teachers for the youth. It is a responsibility that is good to embrace.

I know I can sometimes be critical and even harsh on the young, and yet I know so many good young men and women who are working hard to keep us moving forward in progressive ways.

You are in Maryland right? My mother is in Rockville, one sister in Bethesda, the other in Fredricks, and lots of cousins, nieces and nephews in Baltimore. I don't visit often but I do like the state quite a bit.

[JustAnotherGen]

95. No - up in Horse Country NJ

In a purple dot in the middle of a sea of bright red! Or as we call it out here - the land where Christie is trying to crush us!

[TM99]

98. Ah, I thought you were in MD.

I might have you confused with someone else.

I only know the Princeton area of NJ from a some graduate school summer seminars and some very bad partying in Newark when I lived for about a year in NYC. We won't discuss those events at all here.

[JustAnotherGen]

103. You know - there's a white castle in princeton!

I used to live in Bridgewater - two towns north of Princeton and hang out there a lot. NOw I'm about 18 miles away. Which as you know - is a three hour commute!

[TBF]

120. "Tiny Little Web Site"

actually if you spent time on MIRT you'd learn that this place isn't so tiny. I think it does have a majority of older posters who post daily - but a lot of folks check in here.

Agree with you though that the way to reach younger folks is on Twitter or in person. The teenagers I know aren't on forums like this for the most part or even Facebook. Maybe Reddit, Instagram, Snapchat ... places like that.

Bernie is targeting college towns or finding space at universities (like University of Houston last night) ... he is reaching them.

I hope he also reaches out to the leadership of BLM. It is needed and we can't afford the division. The republicans will eat us alive if we don't stand strong together, no matter who ends up being the candidate ultimately.

[JustAnotherGen]

121. I am on MIRT

And it does feel quite tiny. But I've never had a job without an email address . . . and I still have my what - 1992 AOL email address? Mass Comm 204 - Waterbed Effect of Media and this thing called the 'internet' being a driver in Mass Communications in the future. D

:yahoo: You make the point well though - most young people cannot be reached in forums like this. They connect on social media - which is very limited in its ability to take a deep dive. Or - they connect face to face. It's a matter of finding the influencers in that segment that can drive the core message to the masses.

[2banon]

134. ^this^!

The conclusions one is compelled to draw is somewhat depressing isn't it?

I mean just thinking on how this could have been a righteous movement (still could be if radical changes in leadership were to emerge) making extraordinary headway in manifesting radical socio-economic and political change in our culture . a paradigm sea change - right there to be had - what could be isn't going to be . at least not as a consequence of BLM's actions.. i.e. counter productive tactics absent any discernable strategy. you know. what the hell is the end game? they think they're going "to take down" the system?

yeah, uh huh. I want to take down the system too, but a paradigm shift on a magnitude of 1000 + is required first. that takes some work and guess what? ALLIES.

[TM99]

145. Yes, it does take allies.

The truth is that a few loud mouthed Clinton supporters (most of whom I might add are fucking white!) are using the BLM movement to score points. That is all their sanctimonious bullshit really is.

[RussBLib]

6. I went to the Houston rally for Bernie last night...

...and I saw plenty of black people in the audience. Maybe 10-20% of the total. Lots of Hispanics, Asians, old, young, a total cross-section of the population.

[peacebird]

8. Please post an OP stating that!

[appalachiablue]

72. The Houston rally for Bernie must have been a terrific experience. Please keep posting

about the wide range of folks there- white, black, Hispanic and Asian, of all ages.

[Blue_In_AK]

156. That was at University of Houston, right?

My old alma mater. I wish I could have been there.

Presidential candidates hardly ever come to Alaska, so I need to enjoy these events vicariously.

[orpupilofnature57]

10. It's a way to avoid issues, Black voters are being used to blurr the fact she won't take on the 1%,

none of her supporters can spew it or they would have, she's unelectable and it's not our fault, obviously MSM wants her and Jeb to ensure the most $$$$$$ will be spent .

[peacebird]

13. Yep

[udbcrzy2]

29. You are so right

It must really Bern them to see him having such huge crowds while their well-known and well-funded candidate is being left in the dust. I couldn't believe what BLM did the other day to O'Malley and Bernie, they were not even interested in listening, they just wanted to yell. You can't have a conversation and come up with a solution without being able to talk in a civilized manner.

Just my opinion, but I think that if the police and areas of violence had more cameras that things would be different. I know the cost is an issue, but there must be a better way to make it more affordable.

[whathehell]

35. Bingo..We have a winner!

[JackInGreen]

77. Survey says?!

*DING*

[dreamnightwind]

143. I have been leaning towards that conclusion myself

I would be interested in questions such as: what is the linkage? They are being used, how exactly? What connects them to the corporatist side of things (assuming that premise is correct)? I think an inquiry into that question would be very fruitful, even if nothing is there and it just disproves that they are being used in any way by the 1% wing.

I would think black voters would be able to sniff out a phony if they are just being used (not necessarily, far too many people are taken in by good marketing and the desire to side with a winning brand), so I'm wondering what they see is in it for them? I see little more than empty rhetoric and showcase roles where power is not going to challenged in any way, surely that's not what black people want?

[TBF]

60. Social Justice Warriors -

the thing they fail to see - or at least refuse to acknowledge - is that the injustices are magnified by economic inequality. We have to work on these issues simultaneously. The worst thing we can allow is for everyone to be scattered in little groups - race, gender, religion, etc. The owners - the real owners (the top 10% of the top 1% who own most of this country) - use division to keep us at each others' throats. That is how they keep us down because we are too busy in-fighting to make progress.

Bernie can put this to bed quickly by doing some rallies in black churches etc. And he should do that ASAP.

[appalachiablue]

76. +5

[jwirr]

102. Totally agree.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

138. +1

Agree!

[HooptieWagon]

17. Yep.

John Kerry faked his war record. Max Cleland was a traitor. Progressives don't care about minorities. Rinse, repeat. Wedge politics...but who's driving the wedge?

[Freelancer]

22. Bernie and the Baltimore CVS that burned have a lot in common

No stopping it once it started. And afterward, people are worse off -- not better.

[zeemike]

23. Well that's what makes it work...repetition.

It is the key to effective propaganda...tell the big lie and tell it often...and always attack your opponent's strengths.

But don't get any ideas Sanders supporters, if you attack Hillary's strength it will be called misogyny and a great whaling will go up from her supporters.

[peacebird]

26. And if you push back on their meme you are called racist, or told some variation of

"He has to earn our vote"

[zeemike]

33. Yep, they tag you with a scarlet letter.

And once they have done that you are neutralized and nothing you say will change it.

The benefits of the divide and conquer are well known.

[orpupilofnature57]

39. Or Sexist, and your right he's being scruntinized for everything he does or doesn't say, I

suppose it would be easier to wave and spew banal platitudes .

[ananda]

38. This is truly insane, and I mean ...

... out there insane!

To me it's unimaginable to even think about the horrific consequences
of a Reep president.

This infighting has got to stop now!

This crazy upsidedown attack on Black allies has got to stop now!

[orpupilofnature57]

46. It's away to polarize those of us who won't get fooled again, nothing is better for Black America

after the 8 yrs of a Black president, and I voted for him twice, hoping it would get better, it didn't and won't under another Republican lite Democrat, these are my reasons without attacking anyone .

[ananda]

70. This is a pain we all feel.

I voted for Obama twice, and I did realize that he was from the DLC, Rahm Emanuel school of politics.

Yet the TPP really floored me. There were significant and persistant voices and groups against it, but the Reeps were for it and the corporations wrote it, and so it passed.

Ironically, the people it will hurt the most are Blacks and the working poor.

Sanders has always been anti-corporate and proactive on socialist economic issues. The repercussions for this extend to those most oppressed by our current flood-up-to-the-rich economic policies. Redistribution of wealth will also mean a complete sea-change in the way white males think about themselves and their place in society because the threat they now imagine due to the spread of false memes by the corporate oligarchy will no longer exist.

[orpupilofnature57]

89. + 1000 Well Put !!!!!!

[donnasgirl]

40. Peacebird Good morning

Yesterday i gave you my reason's for backing Bernie which i still believe in my heart, I dont know what to say to individuals who do not recognize a truly Beautiful human being. What i see is a person who doesn't see color, what he see's is human beings who in his view are all equal no matter where they are from or what their color is. I have to leave for the west coast in a few hours and will not be able to post for at least two weeks but i will leave any responses to my beautiful white wife.

I want to Thank people for allowing me to post under my wifes Name.

[peacebird]

42. What we need is to get some concrete steps to change this trajectory.

Bravenak suggested that Bernie go to churches and eat with the people. Go to a quincianera. Go on Jimmy Kimmel and read berniesoblack tweets

All good ideas!

[donnasgirl]

48. They are good ideas

But running for the Presidency really doesn't give him much time to do that.

[peacebird]

50. It is important enough that he should MAKE the time.

[donnasgirl]

56. I would prefer if he did it at a large rally

Where all could see and hear his words not just a few. I am having my wife email Mr Sanders Campaign and will request that he address the issue once and for all.

[TM99]

53. I think those are some great ideas.

I went to the quincianera of my god-daughter just two years ago. I have some Latino blood as my father is African American and Afro-Caribbean. But this type of an event was not something I had any cultural understanding of.

But it was wonderful. I got to give my god-daughter her crown during the ceremony and I was in a place of honor for one of her first three dances before the crowd was allowed to enter the dancing.

It was a beautiful experience that brought me closer to my best friend, a wonderful Hispanic man, and his daughter, whom I will be close to for the rest of our lives. She is off to college next year, came to the Phoenix Sanders speech, and is an avid supporter. She will be able to cast her first vote in an election for him.

I would love to see Sanders attend these types of things to get a true taste of our diverse minority cultures so that a real dialog will evolve organically from this.

[merrily]

57. I often agree with bravenak and I was thinking something similar before I read your post about what

she said. I was thinking maybe he could hold an event for people of color and just listen for a couple of hours, though reserving the right to states facts near the end.

Let me say first: Although I was not born into an easy life, people of color in this country go through more crap by Monday morning at 10 am than I have to deal with all week, maybe all year.

Given that, I am not going to tell any person of color what to be satisfied with from a candidate or from anything else.

I just know that, speaking for myself, none of the candidates has been perfect about race and, FWIW, if anything, my white looking self thinks Sanders has been the best--and the most authentic.

(I confess I have mixed feelings about white people purporting to speak on behalf of people of color. I think some of them mean well and some of them, maybe not so much.)


My very individual impression is that Sanders is trying to unite us around issues that will benefit us all, rather than divide us, and that are most needed by the groups that have been traditionally disadvantaged most. He has certainly said often enough that we should not let anyone divide us because we are stronger united. (Those are my words, but he has said that in his own words quite a lot.)

Having a big tent is not such a blessing if every group imaginable huddles together apart from the others. United, we have a chance, albeit a very slim one, of bucking the billionaires. Pitted against one another, as those in power would like us to be, we don't have a shot, not even at fairer interest rates on student loans, which has already been defeated in Congress with impunity. Also, there is just so much the federal government can do.

[peacebird]

59. I agree with you Merrily.

[KoKo]

96. Recommend.....

[orpupilofnature57]

49. +1000

[Jester Messiah]

45. And if you call them out on their bullshit

Then it's just you not "recognizing your privilege" or some other such bullshit. Once again, feels > reals.

[geek tragedy]

64. who is 'them?' nt

[Jester Messiah]

126. if you have to ask you're probably one of them.

But for the purpose of being absolutely clear: outrage-ophiles. Keyboard commandos. Twitter activists. SJW's. Basement-dwelling losers who will "raise awareness" and "speak truth to power" all damn day so long as they don't have to physically get off their asses. People for whom facts and reality are trivial nuisances, not to be heeded in the course of getting a really good rage underway.

[geek tragedy]

149. Ah, the old SJW reference. Very revealing comment.

Also, the BLM activists at NRN were the ones who got off their asses, while you and yours bashed them from behind keyboards without getting off your asses.

[Jester Messiah]

150. Yeah, you wouldn't hear it so often if it didn't have at least a kernel of truth.

And yeah, they got off their asses to heckle a good man who has done more for their cause than they ever have, since before most of them were probably born. Ready-Fire-Aim is not the best plan for activism.

[geek tragedy]

153. Thanks for whitesplaining things.

I'm sure you know better than black people what's good for them and how they should conduct themselves, and certainly they should be grateful to have such wonderful allies as yourself telling them that they are out of line.

[Jester Messiah]

160. Thanks for turning a matter of fact into one of race.

Must be nice to have that to fall back on. Obviously wrong, laughably outgunned? Just bust out some ad whitinum and act like a race martyr.

[geek tragedy]

166. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1280&pid=28268

outreach, UR doin' it wrong.

[Jester Messiah]

171. You're still doing it.

It's not about trying to be "blacker" than you, it's about facts, reasoning, and logic. But rather than examine whether how you feel is justified, you'd rather turn it into a grievance-measuring contest.

[geek tragedy]

173. Your problem is that you are not willing to listen.

You don't care what those BLM activists have to say, you just invent a cartoon fantasy in your head of what black folks are saying then snidely dismiss it.

You mistake arrogance and condescension for logic.

Bernie is much smarter and more enlightened about this. He is a true ally. You should follow his lead rather than talking like rightwingers who sneer at black folks' concerns and use terms like "SJW."

[Jester Messiah]

175. If the shoe fits... [nt]

[geek tragedy]

176. You're the one wearing it.

Those who think they know everything and are unwilling to listen are the ones who simply do not get it.

Just to be crystal clear: Bernie supporters such as yourself are deterring potential voters of color from joining us with the complete contempt with which you are treating black folks who dare disagree with you about whether Bernie is doing enough outreach or doing it well enough. While this may gratify your ego, it is hurting Bernie's campaign. You have to decide which is more important--helping Bernie win, or pissing on the shoes of potential black and Latino supporters because it makes you feel smart and cool.

[Jester Messiah]

178. So you're "deterred" by someone...

who isn't on the campaign staff, doesn't speak for the candidate, and isn't connected in any way? Well, that just ties in to my main point, which is this: when I see people being idiots, I tell them so. I am, however, an equal opportunity source of such telling. So don't feel special or singled out when I tell you that this whole BLM fiasco has been an episode of almost unutterable idiocy.

In my view, it is you who can't climb down from your prideful perch and admit that maybe, just maybe, BLM reached too far and slimed a good man. Maybe everyone -isn't- out to get you, racially speaking. But for that to be true, you'd have to admit you were wrong, and you can't do that. So you'll let people goad you into turning your cause against it's best interests, because you'll be damned if anyone's gonna tell you what those interests are, or even get you to question whether you're acting in them.

I don't care anymore. I'm done. Shoot yourself in the foot all damned day, in the end it's no skin off my back. I'll be fine whoever is elected. I want it to be a candidate who is good for everybody, but if you can't get over yourself for long enough to do right by yourself, all I can do is shrug and watch the show.

[geek tragedy]

179. This is a perfect example of not listening and imaginging things:

1. I am white. Lilly white. Goes birdwatching and listens to Radiohead white.

2. I am voting for Bernie. However, and this may strike you as a rather exotic goal--I don't want to be special in that regard. I want there to be a lot more people voting for Bernie.

3. BLM did not 'slime' Bernie. They protested at an event where he was speaking.

4. No one is claiming that Bernie is out to get them racially. No one is claiming Bernie is a racist. What they are protesting is a general tendency of white Democratic candidates (and yes this is true of Obama as well) of taking their issues for granted, of putting in a boilerplate paragraph or two on racial justice but never doing the heavy lifting to confront institutional racism. They seek to raise awareness, not to tear anyone down.

5. As shown by points 1-4 above, you simply don't listen to people who disagree with you. This is a fairly common trait amongst people of all ideologies--to listen only to people who share one's perspective and views, but in a majority white setting, this often leads to exclusion of black voices. This is not a function of bigotry, but it is an example of institutional racism at action.

6. You would learn quite a bit by listening. But, if you insist in avoiding any opportunity to learn or broaden your awareness, for the love of god stop talking down to black people because they disagree with you.

[geek tragedy]

154. P.S. Commentary like yours lead to #berniesoblack

Which I thought was a funny joke. It's like they're almost trying to outblack us. "Oh, you're a black person, what could you possibly understand about our candidate? He was marching before you were even born!" Okay, that's cool, but you gotta stay on top of it. So I made a joke that's like, "Bernie's blacker than us! Bernie's SO BLACK!" That's how it feels when they come into our mentions and tell us that we don't know what we're talking about, and even though [Sanders] doesn't talk about #BlackLivesMatter right now, we should just kind of shut up. So I was just like:

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/20/9005855/black-twitter-bernie-sanders

[ibegurpard]

51. black lives matter

If police brutality and racism bother you then it's a no-brainer to support this movement. Anyone who thinks they're going to be able to manipulate this for purely political reasons will have it come back and bite them in the ass. Stop trying to defend Bernie on this. He gets it.

[peacebird]

58. I was looking for concrete suggestions on how we can solve this, BraveNak gave me some really

Good ideas.
Can you add to them?

Bravenak suggested that Bernie go to churches and eat with the people. Go to a quincianera. Go on Jimmy Kimmel and read berniesoblack tweets

[merrily]

78. For at least some of these things, you need an invitation, no?

Also, it can look as though you are doing it solely for votes.

Once a decision is made against a candidate, it can be hard to reverse it.

[peacebird]

81. Perhaps Lil B and Killer Mike can secure such invites for him

[merrily]

85. Sure, and I am sure he has friends in Congress who are African American and of Hispanic heritage.

After all, most of the earliest members of the Progressive Caucus were African American.

But, think about it: What if he were to ask, say, Conyers to invite him to his church in Conyers' home town? Or ask Grijalva to try to get him invited to a quinciniera. Couldn't going those things be seen in a negative light?

I watched the video where Bernie was supposed to have reacted "testily" to having demonstrators be louder than one speaker could be. I didn't see him being testy. I heard him say, rather mildly, that he wasn't going to try to outshout them. Is that my bias? Maybe. I've also read that he was cut off because so much time had been allowed the demonstrators when O'Malley was at the mike. But, ending when he did has been put on Bernie.

My point is, simply, once someone has a view of you, good or bad, it's hard to overcome.

[aspirant]

109. Not "outshout them"

avoiding a Howard Dean moment?

[merrily]

116. I think it was more that it simply could not be done and, even if it could, he did not want to.

Just my take and obviously, I am biased. Either way, I did not see "testy," which is how media characterized it.

[MisterP]

119. ah, but not everyone thinks white progs are the main obstacle to Black America these days

Last edited Mon Jul 20, 2015, 02:20 PM - Edit history (1)

(but closer to your point, what NEXT will they hit Sanders with? my money's on Marcionism)

[Indepatriot]

61. Relax already! That dog won't hunt with

99.9% of voters, who, by the way could'nt care less about this non-issue. Bernie's record on race is the best of any candidate. Period. Some hashtag bullshit cannot change this. Just IGNORE the Hillarians pushing this crap. They're the ones who will have to vote for "racist" Bernie Sanders next November. I'm fairly certain you will find plenty of minority leaders speaking up to defend Sanders when it counts.

[geek tragedy]

63. Hillary learned she can't take black voters for granted in 2008.

Bernie is learning that lesson as well.

He's not a perfect candidate, and he'll have to be better on his feet, because you know this will happen again. Unless he plans on skipping Nevada and South Carolina.

[merrily]

83. Hillary's primary campaign of 2008 is not comparable to anything Bernie has done or omitted in this

primary campaign, or, as best I can tell, in his life. Or this primary campaign for that matter. Sanders has not used race as a weapon to get votes, nor has he "in no ways" pandered or tried to make race a wedge issue to divide Democrats so that his own vote tally might benefit.

That is how I feel about it. I am not telling anyone else how to feel about it.

[geek tragedy]

97. The two campaigns are nothing alike.

I obviously wouldn't be supporting Bernie if he ran that kind of campaign.

But, he does have to run a winning campaign, and part of that is going to mean handling this type of situation. That goes for candidate and supporters alike--the one thing supporters can't be doing is dismissing BLM protestors as some kind of evil actors or crazy people.

Every candidate is going to screw up--whether it was Clinton and her "hard working white people" or Obama inviting Donnie McClurkin or using phrases such as "likeable enough."

Doesn't do the candidate any good for supporters to go on the warpath when a sour note gets struck--even if it's unfair. Not many GLBT voters were impressed by Obama supporters going on the offense over McClurkin.

[Ms. Toad]

92. Which is why, less than a month ago, she was still saying

"All lives matter."

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/06/24/417112956/hillary-clintons-three-word-gaffe-all-lives-matter

(Not defending O'Malley or Sanders, just pointing out the irony of asserting that Hillary learned her lesson in 2008 when she made the very same mistake O'Malley made, which was similar to Sanders' response - which, for you, suggests a lesson not yet learned.)

[geek tragedy]

100. I don't think O'Malley acquitted himself all that badly--white people are just not

comfortable talking about race for the most part, and when people aren't comfortable talking about something they tend to say stupid shit.

They try to relate and empathize, but it comes off poorly.

I think supporters' reactions have been much worse than the candidate's behavior

[marym625]

66. Even while black people here on DU keep saying they support Sanders. But, what else is new?

K&R

[Gore1FL]

67. We all know it's bernies fault that the first nomination contests are in IA and NH.

How dare he speak in those less diversely populated states!

[arcane1]

88. There was a pathetic attempt to link him to a militia group yesterday

So I'm not expecting any honest criticism at this point. There is nothing there.

[aspirant]

93. A little info please

How many voters does BLM represent?

The co-founder stated she was a Bernie Supporter so how many are Bernie vs HRC supporters?

Are there enough supporters to disrupt Repubs and HRC events nationwide to prove this wasn't an isolated instance?

[SoapBox]

99. It's slimy...sleazy...and dirty.

And we know it's scummy politics at it's worst.

Lies sure don't make her look good.

[AtheistCrusader]

106. 70% of black voters in California voted for Prop 8.

That was a huge surprise to me. It is not fair, nor productive, nor safe to simply assume any one bloc of voters will roll one way or another, on any given issue or candidate.

It's a hard lesson to learn, but it happens. Still, it's early in the primary cycle. Lots can change. Name recognition, and Bernies voting record on more issues than just gun control will get more airtime.

[SoapBox]

114. I had never seen this statistic before...

But I would not be surprised.

The African American community has to deal with its own issues about LGBT.

Historically, they have been very low on supporting the gay community.

[AtheistCrusader]

115. To be fair, I should mention, that white people supported it at 53%, and there are a LOT MORE white

people voting in that election, so it's not like the passage of Prop8 can be laid at the black community's feet (those that vote anyway).

Just calling it out as a completely unexpected data point that totally flabbergasted me.

I would THINK they would have been more supportive of opposing a law like that, given more recent problems like Loving vs. Virginia, which I view as a related civil rights issue. I view Bernie as the better candidate on a vast array of issues important to the black community, and would think he'd be more popular, but again, I appear to be making bad assumptions.

[SoapBox]

117. Thank you for all of the info.

And I understand what you are saying.

I was able to actually direct my anger about that whole mess at the Mormons (at least their leadership) and NOM.

But I digress from the OP.

[AtheistCrusader]

118. Yeah, the mormons were the single biggest social bloc.

Followed up close second by the catholics. Same, spending-wise.

[Politicub]

108. This thread is where I "got the meme"

I've been spending less time on DU so perhaps I missed it elsewhere.

DU get tiring when it devolves to Bernie is awesome. Hillary is awesomer. Bernie is awesomer+++. Hillary is awesomer+++++1. Repeat.

[MissDeeds]

127. I sooo agree

It is tiring and it's really taking over DU right now. We should turn our attention the the Republican clown car and pick them apart for awhile.

[rwsanders]

111. It's what is happening because Bernie is the "inevitable" candidate and Hillary

"can't win the general election".

[intheflow]

130. berniesoblack is not a Hillary operative campaign.

As far as I can see, it was started as a tongue-in-cheek tweet from the black community. I'm an ardent Bernie supporter and I thought a lot of the tweets were really funny. Seriously, you need to stop taking yourself so seriously. Progressives without a sense of humor will not be able to endure the arduous and depressing work on race and class that needs to be done in this country.

[Doctor_J]

139. What else have they got?

Bernie slaughters her on the issues, on principles, on straight talk. All Hillary has are wealthy donors and lies. The irony is that eight years ago, she campaigned on her opponent being too black. Now she's campaigning on her opponent being too white. I guess she evolved on that.

[geek tragedy]

140. The Berniesoblack stuff is kinda funny.

The Clinton supporters acting like they can take black folks for granted, well turned out great in 2008.

[eridani]

144. BLM will never succeed in protesting at a Clinton event

They are far too tightly controlled for that.

[mmonk]

148. Politics is a blood sport and in America, that is amplified by the corporate state

and their cronies in the think tanks of both parties and their structures as well as their candidates in both parties. We are challenging this system of corruption. Expect it to continue no matter what Bernie does or any supporters do. You just have to move forward and fight until it's all over and see where we come out. But don't let anyone shut you up from speaking any truth you want to provide. They smell weakness like a shark smells blood in the water. Just conduct yourself with dignity and respect for others but never leave the tillers of truth.

[Jester Messiah]

151. If that's how they want it, then fine.

They can shoot themselves and their cause in the foot and alienate all their would-be allies into indifference. Seems to be what they're going for, so fine. They can knock themselves right out.

[restorefreedom]

152. perhaps a counter hashtag

#hillaryanswerstowallstreetnotyou comes to mind.

[otherone]

170. I thought that Bernie was so black

and I thought it was a compliment..