Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumA Joe Biden/Barack Obama ticket passes Constitutional muster according to legal experts
But what about the 22nd Amendment that forbids someone from RUNNING for POTUS for a third term?
The drafters of this language [of the 22nd Amendment] knew the difference between getting elected to an office and holding an office, Dorf explained. They could have just said no person may hold the office of president more than twice. But they didnt.
Indeed, Dorf even signaled that the present-day Supreme Courts hands would be tied on the matter. In a case from 1968, the Court ruled eligibility requirements that restrict people from running for federal office had to be read with a narrow interpretation that is, the letter of the law mattered more than a broad interpretation of the rules. To rule differently now would thwart the established precedent created more than 50 years ago.
Looking at the 22nd Amendment with a narrow lens, its clearly written in a way to allow a former president to run as someone elses vice president. It may not have been the collective authors intent for that to have happened, but they didnt consider disallowing it either.
https://hillreporter.com/could-joe-biden-pick-barack-obama-as-his-running-mate-in-2020-32771
The Amendment is LITERAL and allows him to serve again. Take that Federalist Society! Those are the words of the Constitution!
President Obama, we need you now to save your legacy.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)My guess is he is perfectly happy now, as he fully deserves.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
riverine
(516 posts)be willing to go to extraordinary lengths to see he is defeated.
What could be more fitting than booting him out like this?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)full time government service again, though. Will be glad to be wrong.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
treestar
(82,383 posts)Though I suppose he could do it as he could be skipped over. But the VP exists to be able to step in.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(36,055 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cha
(297,218 posts)her foot down.. and that would be the end of that discussion.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
shanny
(6,709 posts)and btw have you read the 12th Amendment?
The Twelfth Amendment states that no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice President of the United States.
22 Amendment aside, how do we square that circle?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
riverine
(516 posts)The important thing is to clear a path for Biden before the mudslinging begins.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
I stand by my original comment. We should not go back to the future.
also too: I cannot imagine a scenario where a) Obama would want the job (the so-called "bucket of warm spit" ; b) Biden would want him to have the job (over-shadowed by your predecessor who is doing what? waiting for you to die?); or c) Michelle would permit it.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Lucky Luciano
(11,256 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Not to mention, the country needs to move forward to recover from this nightmare, not spend the next several years bogged down in the litigation that would arise from such a scenario.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)The 22nd says you can't be 'elected to a 3rd term as POTUS', it does not say cannot SERVE a 3rd term. If the framers of the 22nd had meant that, they'd have said that.
I'd say there's a pretty strong argument to be made, and not at all sure that SCOTUS would be comfortable rejecting that argument, if properly made.
It'll never happen but it's interesting to ponder.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)V-Potus is also an elected Office...a transfer from an elected Office to an an Office 1 can't hold Constitutionally...because they have been elected to that Office twice...there's not a drunk/stoned Town Justice that would uphold that attempt to backdoor the 22nd
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)It does not say you cannot SERVE a 3rd Term.
Are you saying then, that Obama could not run for the US House, because he then might become Speaker, and hence 3rd in line for POTUS?
If you're NOT, explain ... what's the inherent difference?
I think you're wrong, and this article is correct, personally.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,308 posts)Waste of words. Your interpretation is incorrect, anyhow.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)on this subject?
How is the interpretation incorrect?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,308 posts)prohibit a person from serving more than two terms as President. So, Obama is ineligible, since he could become President again.
Remember why that Amendment came to be. FDR was the reason.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)As Dorf points out, it'd have been very simple for the authors to have said 'may not SERVE' >2 terms as POTUS. Instead it says 'may not be ELECTED >2 terms as POTUS'.
If you're elected as VP, you're NOT elected as POTUS. It's a different office.
We'll likely never find out but I don't think it's as cut and dry as you're saying.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Frustratedlady
(16,254 posts)I'd rather see Obama on the Supreme Court or Secretary of State.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)It doesn't say you can never SERVE as POTUS again after >2 terms.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)SCOTUS would kill this in a heartbeat....7-2, 9-zip(should be)
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)Why not use "Serve As President?" (as Dorf points out)? Why not explicitly say "Nor shall they be elected as Vice President"?
It's pretty clear it says EXACTLY what I'm telling you.
However it also says this:
"Furthermore, the 22nd Amendment limits the maximum time an individual may be serve as President to 10 years, if the person should succeed to the office"
Which is another potential argument for why it doesn't say ... what you and MM are arguing it says.
I think it's very likely that if this went to SCOTUS they would rule that Obama COULD run as VP, but also ... either a) Obama could not succeed to POTUS, that if Biden were to die or whatever, he would skipped in the succession, OR b) that he may serve no more than 2 more years in that event, and at that point, succession would proceed.
Either a) or b) would, IMHO, be the correct interpretation of the 22nd.
And from my other post:
Are you saying then, that Obama could not run for the US House, because he then might become Speaker, and hence 3rd in line for POTUS?
If you're NOT, explain ... what's the inherent difference?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)SCOTUS would shoot your idea down...probably 9-zip
That said...it's not going to happen because Past POTUS Obama Knows the intent of the 22'nd...
You are maybe doing a thought exercise...will never happen because there are people that know the meaning of the 22'nd...and how it would play in the Courts.
You gave it a shot.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)that you're so sure of ... clear. "Nobody may serve as President for > 8 Years". Boom, done. Instead they say 'may be elected twice to office of President', specifically.
I think the case could be made that the intent in the way it was worded was that they didn't mean to make it so an 8 year POTUS later could not run for VP, or to be in The House (where they could become Speaker, who is 3rd in line), or become Sec State (4th in line, as you noted elsewhere) and on and on. Where do you draw the line? If Sec Labor is 12th in line, can Obama never be Sec Labor?
Instead they added a specific '10 year limit of serving as POTUS in case of Succession' to the part about only being elected twice.
Thus, I think you're incorrect on the intent, and that the intent is, in fact, the actual WORDS written down on the paper, when read in a literal fashion.
Also, did you see this part?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Here's Dorf....a relevant Dorf
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)And address exactly zero of my points.
Got it. Very convincing.
Good day, sir ...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)IF it were as you think, Obama could be POTUS again...Biden would announce Obama as his running mate Today. That would end the Primary process...it would be game over....23 other candidates would quit
POTUS Obama knows he's not now, nor will he ever be.. eligible to be POTUS again...Ever
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Orangepeel
(13,933 posts)The line of succession would just skip.
The 22nd amendment doesnt have to say that the VP has to be eligible to be president because the 12th does.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)If a cabinet secretary is ineligible, they are just removed from the line of succession.
Weve had and currently have secretaries who cant be president - including Henry Kissinger, Madeleine Albright, Anthony Celebrezze, Sally Jewel, and Elaine Chao
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Politicub
(12,165 posts)It would be odd to see him as second banana to Biden. But stranger things have happened.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tarc
(10,476 posts)it was particularly nauseating when people floated the idea of Bill being Hillary's VP.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
colsohlibgal
(5,275 posts)It may be legal but no way no how.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Rebl2
(13,506 posts)I like President Obama, I dont see how he could be chosen as VP because if something happened to Biden he wouldnt be allowed to have a third term I dont believe.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)it's likely he could in fact run and be elected as Biden's VP.
Consider this ... Speaker of the House is 3rd in line, right? So could Obama not run for the House because he might be made Speaker? Could he also not be appointed Sec of State, cause that's 4th in line? Where is the line drawn?
The 22nd limits someone from being ELECTED to POTUS no more than twice, not that you may only serve as POTUS for 8 years period. In fact, it says one may serve as POTUS for no more than 10 years, explicitly, in a case of succession.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Orangepeel
(13,933 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)He's not ineligible to BE president, he's ineligible to be ELECTED President. In this case, he'd not be elected President.
22nd specifically sets a 10 year time limit on total time as President, if through succession.
Obama is eligible to BE President for 2 more years but only through succession, not through election.
People who write Constitutional Amendments are not dumb people.
Had they MEANT that a POTUS who'd served two terms became ineligible to serve as POTUS ever again, they'd have said that.
Instead they specifically said 'cannot be ELECTED to a third term as President'. Not 'as POTUS or VP'. But 'as POTUS', specifically. And then also specifically added a 10 max total time for any one person, and specifically said 'if through succession'.
It's really pretty clear that this would not rule out Obama, Bush II, or Clinton ... from being a VP.
I think the 22nd authors did not want to rule out a former POTUS from serving in a role that COULD succeed to POTUS at some point ... i.e. VP, Speaker of the House, Sec. of State, and on down the line (and where WOULD you draw the line?). But they did mean to say 'you can only serve 2 more years, period' in that situation, should you happen to succeed.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)but even if by some far fetched miracle he did think of running as someone's VP, do you really think Obama would want to run with someone who already ran for president twice & lost?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden