I think the anger over the Harris- Biden exchange is not because she asked the question

[EffieBlack]

but that he didn't answer it effectively.

I'm pretty sure that, had Harris raised the issue and asked the question just as she did and Biden was prepared and came back with a strong response, this would have been no big deal, people wouldn't be accusing Harris of "kneecapping" him or attacking her for "mischaracterizing" his record (which she didn't).

But Biden wasn't ready for the topic, even though he should have been, and created a problem for himself. When you're using state's rights as a defense, you've got some repair work to do ...

The problem wasn't that Harris brought up Biden's record in a debate. The problem is that Biden mishandled his response.

Not a fatal blow. But he needs to up his game.

[True Dough]

1. Fair comment. eom

[SCantiGOP]

30. It changed my preference in the DU poll

When the poll first hit I selected Harris. A week or two later, mainly because of the issue of electability, I switched it to Biden.
I had been having doubts since most of the next generation in my family (I am in my 60s and all of my family are Democrats) are not at all enthusiastic about Biden and do not think he will do well against Trump.
Hearing Biden's remarks and seeing how he interacted with Harris caused my to move my vote back to her. It could also be with Sen Warren.

[PatrickforO]

121. I'm supporting Warren now because I'm an economist and really like

her policies. She struck me as the clear winner, along with Castro and Booker, of the debate on Wednesday.

As to last night, Kamala walked away with it. I still think her a bit weak on monetary and fiscal policy, but she nearly won me over last night.

Did you all see the one quote: Swalwell told Biden to pass the torch, and Harris picked it up.

See, I'm 60 as well, and while I like Biden and Sanders, the nagging question is that if they have all these great ideas and can both get so much done, then how come we are in the state we're in now? They have both been in there slugging for decades but things have actually gotten worse. To me, that is the main question and it is a very hard question. Some here may not think it fair. I do, because the stakes are so high. Survival of our republic, and survival of the human species. Can't be much higher than that.

Now, Warren is going to be 70, which doesn't bother me a bit, because I've been able to watch her since she was elected to the Senate and she's got great policy ideas and is a very, very strong champion for all of us. She understands Wall Street, banking and the primacy of the shareholder backwards and forwards, and she's utterly fearless and fierce. Just an outstanding individual who would make an excellent president.

But now there's Harris, Swalwell and Buttigieg. I'm thinking Swalwell will end up leaving the race, but he's elevating the gun control issue. Buttigieg has a stellar future. There's little about him not to like, but he's got to figure out how to gain the confidence and trust of the African American community. Now, he had a really genuine answer to Maddow's hard question about his racial relations, and maybe that did him some good.

I've been thinking too about reparations as a policy. I did not used to support it for a variety of reasons, none of them really good in retrospect. But now, I do support the idea. Problem is, like most white guys, I don't know what that will look like on the ground, and it makes me uncomfortable. Nonetheless, we've got to have those discussions, and we have to do something by way of reparations. It can't just be throwing money at it, either. Oh, each element will have a cost, but what will the elements be? How about we ask the AA community? That's where to start.

As to Buttigieg, he may not make it to the nomination this time around, but he is a genuinely good, smart, articulate person who has decades of great service to the American people in his future. But he's learning you have to think about everybody, and especially about minorities. Because it is a fine line. You want to be fair, but if you don't recognize the playing field wasn't level in the first place, then nothing you do will work at all well. That is what Pete is working through now, and I feel for him, but then how must the family of Eric Logan feel? They are suing the federal government, and the officer. I can't even imagine the fury that must be inside them after a 54-year-old father of seven was killed and the cop claims he had a knife. But where's the knife?

That officer turning off his body camera - bad idea. Swalwell was right. Fire the chief, and fire the officer, and then get the AA community together to help make some really vigorous changes designed to change the culture of policing in South Bend to a more racially unbiased model. And keep those body cams on ALL the time.

But Harris? She walked away with that debate last night and if she is our nominee, she will have my wholehearted support.

[BlueWI]

261. Good comments.

I need to watch the rest of debate 2, but Swalwell was impressive along with Harris and even Sanders, IMO. Warren was my original #1 and may be again soon, and Booker/Harris to me are also strong.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

128. Lost confidence in Biden awhile ago... last night only confirmed what so many already knew.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[DownriverDem]

97. Here's the truth

Please focus on who can win the Electoral College which means a state by state race. We see a lot about who folks like and their dream tickets. We see nothing about who folks really think can beat trump. That's all that matters by the way.

[TheBlackAdder]

122. I'm lost as to how that relates to the OP. Also, Obama was barely known early on too.

[Butterflylady]

145. Sorry to disagree

But it matters very much. Remember that's how trmp won.

[ArcticFox]

232. How Trump won?

A: Russian propaganda;
B: Republicans disenfranchising Democratic voters;
C: Hackable proprietary voting machines and infrastructure;
D: Democratic establishment convinced Clinton was the anointed one.

It will happen again unless we nominate someone that excites Democratic voters. Clinton was same old same old. Biden is too. Nobody is interested in status quo. No one wants more compromise.

[BlueWI]

272. Amen!

The election win is no guarantee for any nominee. Now is the time to hear from all the candidates who have stepped forward and enjoy their awesomeness!

[Ferrets are Cool]

274. Great post

[calimary]

202. Unfortunately that's a big part of it, at least until/unless we can abolish the Electoral College.

An entity that now overrides the verdict of the popular vote. It’s outlived its usefulness. And it is NOT fair. I’m sorry, but when the population of ONE city in California (Los Angeles) can “eat” the size of population of five states (including Iowa), I don’t think such a state should be kicked to the end of the line.

NOBODY is happier than I am that California moved its primary up. And I don’t even live in California anymore. Still, there are more people who stand to be affected by whatever goes on in Washington than ANY other state. Frankly, I still think California’s primary should go first.

[Eliot Rosewater]

205. If I had a dollar for every time I said the person I want to support is the one who is most likely

to beat the traitor who JOKED with our enemy yesterday about protecting our elections,I would have a few thousand dollars.

I am still on that line of thinking and at this point I do not see Joe in any better position to do that than Liz or Kamala, but I would like to see polling from trusted sources but it is too early for those to matter.

[DonCoquixote]

209. remember how Hillary was the only one who coudl beat trump?

and how Mi, Pa, Wi, and Ohio were that "blue wall?"

[marylandblue]

214. Yes, we misunderstood these places in 2016, and we still misunderstand them.

They voted for Trump because they were misunderstood by both parties. They didn't necessarily like him, but at least he was speaking to them. Who's the person speaking to them most now? Warren. And last night, Harris spoke to them too.

I know people say the guy in the diner, will never go for a progressive female professor because they want the friendly old white guy who sits next to them, but that's again a misunderstanding. If you don't have enough food on the table, do you care if a man or a woman brings you a bag of groceries?

[TrunKated]

223. oddly, I don't remember the HRC was the only one...

thing at all.

[BlueWI]

262. Even if Biden wins, he can't singlehandedly run the government.

This is a chance for Democrats and their legislative agenda to have a we'll deserved spotlight. Everyone wants to beat Trump, and if you can't win the nomination, you can't beat Trump. So why not enjoy discussing our favorite candidates and elevating the party's spirit as the primaries approach - in 6 more months??

[gldstwmn]

265. Horrible strategy.

[olegramps]

113. Here is my question in regard to busing:

I am in my 80's and have a couple of questions. Firstly wasn't the objective of busing to help both the minorities and majorities get a better understanding of the overwhelming things that we share in common? The busing went both ways whites to black communities and blacks to whites. There was an adverse reaction basically by the racist whites who started their own white only private schools. I have three children who are my nephews and a niece who were bussed and they became close friends with a couple of kids at the school where they were bussed and are still friends. I asked them if they regretted their experience and both said that as far as they were concerned the only problem was the bus ride, but they concluded that it was a positive experience. They said that it removed the fear and reservations that they had about people of a different color and ethnicity. It seemed to me that Harris was portraying it as a horrible experience without any positives. I welcome any comments about other people's experiences.

[iamateacher]

135. I was bused

It was a positive experience. Therefore, I honestly was puzzled by what exactly she was getting at when I heard her comment.

[EffieBlack]

141. I think she implied that her experience was also positive

Or at least she didn't suggest that it was negative.

[olegramps]

222. If that is the case then just why did she bring it up? That puzzles me.

[EffieBlack]

224. She could only talk about his position on busing if her experience with busing was negative?

[tblue37]

167. Her point was that busing was good for integration--and by implication, for her--but that

Last edited Fri Jun 28, 2019, 02:56 PM - Edit history (1)

Biden opposed it, and that was a serious flaw in his political history.

[iamateacher]

186. Thanks for clarifying

Makes sense now.

[DallasNE]

157. Busing

My recollection was that whole classes were bused so an all white school had an all black 5th grade and an all black school had an all white 5th grade. Bad way to implement the court order. Later they went to magnet schools which made a lot more sense.

[EffieBlack]

168. No. That's not even close to how it worked.

[jberryhill]

276. When you have time

It would be enlightening to follow the procedural history - all eight years of it- of Evans v. Buchanan and the repeated failures of New Castle County Delaware to integrate its schools. Biden needed to be re-elected in 1978 in a very specific context in relation to that case.

[3Hotdogs]

229. So, the purpose of Harris' question was to help Biden?

No vote or primary contribution from me.

She can play the race card against Trump if she gets that far.

[BlueWI]

271. What is the race card anyway?

Answer: a cliche, unless you mean the appeals to white racial solidarity that date back to the 1600s and still worked for Trump in 2016.

POC often have more nuanced understandings of racial issues due to their experiences, personal and professional. Sometimes a conversation makes this evident.

[mcar]

2. Biden should have expected someone on that stage

would bring up the issue that's been dogging him lately. He made the mistake of being under prepared.

I am finding it discouraging, to say the least, that some on this board are attacking Harris for doing exactly what Castro did the night before - yet he got praise for challenging O'Rourke.

I'm also hearing some sadly familiar refrains: contrived, prepared (zounds!), calculating. Just waiting for shrill.

Harris was prepared to challenge Biden on the issue. But she also spoke from the heart - her voice was nearly cracking.

This was one debate - she helped herself, which is exactly what every candidate was on that stage to do. Biden did not help himself. It happens. We'll see where it goes from here.

[Cha]

5. And yet Atlanta Mayor Keisha Bottoms endorsed

Biden for President 2020 this morning!

Biden Lands Endorsement From Atlanta Mayor Bottoms

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=174729

[mcar]

6. And that's fine. Good for him

I love Joe and would proudly campaign for him. He just didn't have a good night last night and Harris did.

Lots more debates before this is decided. I hate to see some people on this board attacking her in sadly familiar fashion. Joe should have been more prepared. Bet he will be next debate.

[Zambero]

79. This why we have multiple debates

Walter Mondale, John Kerry, and Mitt Romney all scored "knockouts" early-on, then didn't fare so well in subsequent matchups. Every debate has a different dynamic, affected by the ones that preceded it but also venturing into new or unanticipated territory.

[mcar]

83. That's right

In the meantime, how wonderful is it to have so many solid candidates?

[Zambero]

95. I consider it to be a non-embarrassing embarrassment of riches!

As contrasted to that overcrowded GOP clown car of 2016, this field of actual adults represents the Democratic party very well. I could enthusiastically support many if not most of our candidates.

[comradebillyboy]

11. Biden is formidable and has a lot of friends in the Party

but last night's performance was sub par. Joe is still the front runner but he can't get complacent with Warren and Harris at his heels.

[onetexan]

18. Yippie!! Joe for POTUS & Kamala for VP :)

[Cha]

53. Pretty Cool Endorsement the morning

after the s0-called "blood bath", eh, onetexan!

[onetexan]

88. u got it Cha

Go Joe! Joe/Kamala would be unbeatable

[peggysue2]

132. Yes, that endorsement throws cold water on the bonfire.

[Cha]

136. More from Mayor Bottoms to douse the flames..

"The larger context was that you have to work across the aisle with people you don't like, people you don't agree with," Bottoms said. "I do it each and every day as mayor of Atlanta in a red state."

Bottoms added that Biden's work on civil rights issues and his progressive resume demonstrate his commitment and that the remarks were blown out of proportion.

"My position is, if his explanation was good enough for John Lewis, then it's good enough for me," Bottoms added, referring to the Georgia congressman and civil rights icon who was among Biden's defenders after the controversy.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/biden-nabs-2020-endorsement-atlanta-mayor-bottoms-64012750

Peggysue

[peggysue2]

139. Excellent!

[EffieBlack]

148. All black people don't think alike

An endorsement by some black politicians doesn't "throw cold water" on an issue that's of concern to other black pepple ... any more than a white elected official endorsing Harris would "throw cold water" on every white candidates' criticism of her.

We're not a monolith.

[peggysue2]

161. Did I say that? That all AA's are the same.

Come on, Effie.

[EffieBlack]

165. Yes, you did - if you think the endorsement of one black elected official

shuts down the "bonfire" of the controversy around Biden's positions and comments, that's exactly what you're suggesting.

[peggysue2]

177. Suggesting Am I?

I don't need you or anyone else to put words in my mouth, Effie.

The fact that a well-respected mayor, an African American woman of a major southern city, defended Joe Biden should be what? Discounted, minimized, not mentioned? Or simply thrown back with a cheap shot about my intentions.

This sort of thing doesn't serve any of us well.

Of course, I don't think the African American community is monolithic, anymore than I believe that all women voters are the same. But I do think that the mayor's endorsement as well as the support Biden has received by members of the CBC helps douse the argument of 'you're not a racist but . . .'

This is politics. I understand that. But please, stop with the mind-reading. You don't know me, period.

[EffieBlack]

193. A black mayor's endorsement is great. But it doesn't "douse" the opinions of any

other person who has a problem with what Biden has said or done on race any more than the fact that Barbara Lee, other CBC Members and numerous other black elected offials have endorsed Kamilla Harris "douses" the opinions of people who don't have a problem with it.

If you really don't believe we are a monolith, it's probably better not to claim that an endorsement by one black elected official cancels out the opinions of other people on the issue of race so you won't be misunderstood.

[peggysue2]

194. That's not what I said and you know it

If you really don't believe we are a monolith, it's probably better not to claim that an endorsement by one black elected official cancels out the opinions of other people on the issue of race so you won't be misunderstood.

But if you want to keep digging that hole that's on you.

We're done here.

[tulipsandroses]

278. Agreed

Every time someone posts something like this, it reminds me of the I have a black friend excuse. Its just weird. As if saying I have a black friend absolves you from whatever offensive thing you said or did.

I notice there were no posts of Jesse Jackson saying he was on the wrong side of history. Surely somebody on DU read that comment somewhere on the internet today. Yet there were no posts about it. But Rev Jackson is entitled to that opinion as Mayor Bottoms is entitled to hers.

[Cha]

153. Yeah, the lapping flames that are

determined to take down Joe Biden.. from the m$m to everyone else with an agenda.

[Zambero]

143. Would be a great matchup

[onetexan]

47. touche'!!

Let's see if Kamala's poll numbers go up as a result of her attempt to twist Joe's words

[Cha]

56. I'm with Atlanta's Mayor, Keisha Bottoms!

[blue-wave]

125. Woo Hoo!!! That's a big one!

Thanks for the info Cha! Mahalo!

[Cha]

131. Aloha, blue-wave! More on Biden from Mayor Bottoms..

"The larger context was that you have to work across the aisle with people you don't like, people you don't agree with," Bottoms said. "I do it each and every day as mayor of Atlanta in a red state."

Bottoms added that Biden's work on civil rights issues and his progressive resume demonstrate his commitment and that the remarks were blown out of proportion.

"My position is, if his explanation was good enough for John Lewis, then it's good enough for me," Bottoms added, referring to the Georgia congressman and civil rights icon who was among Biden's defenders after the controversy.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/biden-nabs-2020-endorsement-atlanta-mayor-bottoms-64012750

You're Welcome!

[nvme]

140. I love manufactured outrage

If Harris is still damaged by the experience of riding a bus maybe she is not ready for prime-time. Yes it got her air time, at what cost? How is the electorate served by one Dem trying to attack another
"Don't tell me what your against, tell me what you are for.

[mcar]

196. You seem to have misunderstood what she said

Here's the transcript of her remarks. Please show where she said she was damaged by riding a bus.

As the only black person on this stage, I would like to speak on the issue of race.OK. So on the issue of race, I couldn't agree more that this is an issue that is still not being talked about truthfully and honestly. I -- there is not a black man I know, be he a relative, a friend or a coworker, who has not been the subject of some form of profiling or discrimination. Growing up, my sister and I had to deal with the neighbor who told us her parents couldn't play with us because she -- because we were black. And I will say also that -- that, in this campaign, we have also heard -- and I'm going to now direct this at Vice President Biden, I do not believe you are a racist, and I agree with you when you commit yourself to the importance of finding common ground. But I also believe, and it's personal -- and I was actually very -- it was hurtful to hear you talk about the reputations of two United States senators who built their reputations and career on the segregation of race in this country. And it was not only that, but you also worked with them to oppose busing. And, you know, there was a little girl in California who was part of the second class to integrate her public schools, and she was bussed to school every day.
And that little girl was me.

[stillcool]

248. "still damaged by the experience of riding a bus"...

how revealing.

[srobertss]

284. It's definitely disappointing, I agree

I still have Bernie as my choice, but Warren is a very close second and Harris is my third choice. But I do understand the support for Biden and I am disappointed that he wasn’t prepared for this. When I heard his announcement video, it was like honey on a sunburn. And I thought, if he is what it takes to beat Trump, so be it. So it is disappointing because I think he would otherwise really draw in votes.

[SouthernProgressive]

3. I'm not seeing all of this anger. NT

[ucrdem]

4. I thought he answered if effectively.

Was anyone listening?

[Perseus]

8. No, he didn't, and his body language said a lot

He kept his head down for most of the time he gave his answer, and when Bennet challenged him on his "negotiating skills" with "Mitch", his answer was "Oh, come on"...

I cannot understand why so many people are supporting Biden, the buffoon will eat him for lunch.

And the NRA...the defense of the NRA...can anyone explain that one? or better yet, can anyone excuse that one?

[ucrdem]

15. I dunno about body language but I was watching on a laptop

but my impression was that Biden was aiming for an impression of humility and attentiveness. He can't change his past votes and positions and no one seems interested in his reasonable explanations. This seems a good strategy to get through sticky moments in the primary debates. If he makes it to the GE he can take a more commanding position but if he tossed his head back and took Kamala to the woodshed it would have been game over. Sometimes ya just gotta take your lumps and that's one thing he's taken a lot of.

[onetexan]

21. exactly. Joe answered well and handled the situation well. If he came out swinging at her the media

would be all over it...hair on fire sensationalizing like they're trying to do now.
He was composed and rebutted her well. She on the other hand could have been a little less dramatized. She lost her composure in her comebacks by raising her voice. Not a good trait.

[ucrdem]

27. Right, he tossed off a quip to Cory over his shoulder as he was getting in his car

and it was national news! He asked Cory to apologize to him!! Oh the humanity!

[FloridaBlues]

106. He wasn't about to disrespect her and didn't.

[Perseus]

26. When Buttigieg was confronted with the police issue he is facing in his city

He did not bow his head, he looked right at the moderators and the camera and he said he was responsible for the issue, the buck stops with him. That is how you answer.

To me it was a lame answer to say he didn't vote for it because it was a local decision. I know I am repeating myself, but you either support an issue or you don't, to present an excuse like that is unacceptable.

What is the excuse for supporting the NRA?

[ucrdem]

40. Buttigieg did well.

Busing was 50 years ago and has been ruled unconstitutional by the SC. It's complicated and most aren't familiar with the details. I think Biden answered the question about as well as he could.

[pangaia]

68. I only watched some replays here and there. I just cannot watch 2 hours of that

screeching all over each other.
And I do not have a favorite.
But, I agree with this.. "was aiming for an impression of humility and attentiveness....." etc
I think he was being sincere with that "body language."

This is perhaps his strength AND his perceived or true 'weakness."

[Perseus]

137. Don't forget that Harris gave him the opportunity to say what his positions is now

And he did not answer.

I still would like to know what the excuse for his defense to the NRA is...no one seems to have an answer for this one.

His "Oh, come on" answer to Bennet is also one no one seems to have an answer for.

I am really scared that Biden will win the nomination, the republicans want that and they are going to eat him alive. He is not progressive, he is not Obama, I think too many people are hoping he will be Obama, but he is not, and we need to get over the fantasy that he can negotiate with republicans, no one can and no one should.

[gldstwmn]

267. That's what I'd like to know.

People should be outraged at that comment. In a way he's lucky the busing comments are getting so much play because the defense of the NRA is current and far worse.

[Goodheart]

13. No, he didn't.

And I'm finding out this morning that he actually lied.

Still love him, but....

[ucrdem]

16. lied about what?

[Goodheart]

28. He lied when he said he opposed busing.

Texts this morning prove that no, he wasn't opposed to busing at all.

[ucrdem]

32. That's what he said last night: he didn't oppose busing, just federally mandated busing.

I don't think he lied about his position.

[Goodheart]

37. But, yes, he DID oppose busing altogether.

[ucrdem]

52. Hard to make blanket statements about the totality of what Biden said.

He's said a lot. As for busing, I'm not seeing a tidal wave of support for reviving it.

[Cha]

50. Thank you..there's so much

damn confusion.. I'm tired of it.

[Celerity]

61. CNN fact-checked the exchange

https://twitter.com/ddale8

Daniel DaleVerified account
@ddale8
Reporter for CNN, fact-checking politicians.
Washington DC


https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1144461457624403974.html


Daniel Dale
@ddale8
7 hours ago, 6 tweets, 1 min read

Biden's claim tonight that he only opposed federally mandated busing and did not generally oppose "busing in America" was a flagrant misrepresentation of his position in the '70s and '80s. He'd made crystal clear he opposed busing as a concept, as a matter of principle.

Biden's remarks on busing in the 1970s were generally very unequivocal -- "I oppose busing. It's an asinine concept." "A bankrupt concept." "Busing does not work." He expressed pride for making anti-busing sentiment "respectable" among liberals.

As recently re-reported by WaPo, Biden said things like this about busing: “What it says is, ‘In order for your child with curly black hair, brown eyes, and dark skin to be able to learn anything, he needs to sit next to my blond-haired, blue-eyed son.’ That’s racist!"

It wasn't just words: working with avowed racists, Biden pushed legislation to make it difficult to run busing programs. There *was* a caveat: he said he would support busing in cases where it'd been proven that a community had been intentionally segregated. But otherwise no.

Biden's campaign says that his position on busing would not have stopped the particular local busing program that Kamala Harris was a part of, since it was voluntarily adopted by the local community. In general, though: she was not mischaracterizing his opposition to busing. Biden campaign’s argument is that him saying in the ‘70s that he opposed busing was understood then to mean he simply opposed federal-mandated busing, not all busing. Like when GOP said under Obama they oppose health reform, was obvious it meant Obamacare, not all health reform.

here is the WaPo article referenced

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/bidens-tough-talk-on-1970s-school-desegregation-plan-could-get-new-scrutiny-in-todays-democratic-party/2019/03/07/9115583e-3eb2-11e9-a0d3-1210e58a94cf_story.html?utm_term=.fda4f19c0134



snip

[ucrdem]

65. WaPo: "he said he would support busing in cases where

it'd been proven that a community had been intentionally segregated."

You bolded that.

[Celerity]

70. re-read please

[ucrdem]

72. Nevertheless he did not unequivocally oppose busing. nt

[Celerity]

124. not true

But feel free to continue to believe that.



here is another interview

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1978/08/24/senate-rejects-amendment-to-restrict-judges-authority-on-school-busing/6ba7d8ed-d746-46c5-8aa9-51e134ec89bc/?utm_term=.552468cca54f




https://books.google.se/books?id=ZFQE3bLDsS4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Between+North+and+South:+Delaware,+Desegregation,+and+the+Myth+of+American&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjI3vygyYzjAhXyxcQBHYohDEIQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=Between%20North%20and%20South%3A%20Delaware%2C%20Desegregation%2C%20and%20the%20Myth%20of%20American&f=false




He supported a wide-reaching Jesse Helms anti-integration (not just bussing) amendment


How a Young Joe Biden Turned Liberals Against Integration

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/joe-biden-integration-school-busing-120968?o=1

snip

Sen. Jesse Helms, a Republican from North Carolina, was the first to strike. On September 17, 1975, when a larger education bill came up for debate, Helms offered a crippling anti-integration amendment. It would prevent the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare (HEW) from collecting any data about the race of students or teachers. In addition, HEW could not “require any school … to classify teachers or students by race.” Thus, HEW could not withhold funding from school districts that refused to integrate. “This is an antibusing amendment,” Helms explained. “This is an amendment to stop the current regiments of faceless, federal bureaucrats from destroying our schools.”

Biden rose to support Helms’s amendment. “I am sure it comes as a surprise to some of my colleagues … that a senator with a voting record such as mine stands up and supports [the Helms amendment].” Helms replied that he was happy to welcome Biden “to the ranks of the enlightened.” After the laughter died down, Biden launched an anti-busing screed. “I have become convinced that busing is a bankrupt concept.” The Senate should declare busing a failure, and focus instead on “whether or not we are really going to provide a better educational opportunity for blacks and minority groups in this country.” He praised Ed Brooke’s initiatives on housing, job opportunities and voting rights. In one breath, Biden seemed to reject busing in the North and the South, and claimed that he was committed to equal opportunity for African Americans.

A few other senators spoke briefly about the amendment, then Brooke sprung to action. The Helms amendment would eviscerate Title VI of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Brooke said, which enabled HEW to cut off funding to school districts that refused to integrate. Brooke asserted that the federal government should attempt other integration remedies before resorting to busing. “But if compliance with the law cannot be achieved without busing, then busing must be one of the available desegregation remedies.” Brooke introduced a motion to table Helms’s amendment. Brooke’s motion passed, 48-43. Biden wouldn’t budge, and voted with Jesse Helms and the anti-bussers.

Brooke had fought this fight before, but he would face a more formidable adversary in Joe Biden. When a southern conservative like Helms led the anti-busing forces, Ed Brooke could still rally his troops. But it would be tougher to combat the anti-busing faction when its messenger was a young liberal from a border state.

Immediately after the Helms amendment was tabled, Biden proposed his own amendment to the $36 billion education bill, stipulating that none of those federal funds could be used by school systems “to assign teachers or students to schools … for reasons of race.” His amendment would prevent “some faceless bureaucrat” from “deciding that any child, black or white, should fit in some predetermined ratio.” He explained, “All the amendment says is that some bureaucrat sitting down there in HEW cannot tell a school district whether it is properly segregated or desegregated, or whether it should or should not have funds.” Finally, Biden called busing “an asinine policy.”

Brooke pointed out that the amendment would do much more than Biden claimed. Like the Helms gambit, it would still gut Title VI of the Civil Rights Act. But this time, a number of liberal senators that had opposed Helms’s amendment now supported Biden: Warren Magnuson and Scoop Jackson of Washington, where Seattle faced impending integration orders; and Thomas Eagleton and Stuart Symington of Missouri, where Kansas City confronted a similar fate. Mike Mansfield, the majority leader from Montana, also jumped on board. Watching his liberal colleagues defect, Republican Jacob Javits of New York mused, “They’re scared to death on busing.” The Senate approved Biden’s amendment. Biden had managed to turn a 48-43 loss for the anti-busing forces into a 50-43 victory.

In a seminal moment, the Senate thus turned against desegregation. The Senate had supported the 1964 Civil Rights Act, 1965 Voting Rights Act and 1968 Fair Housing Act. In the early 1970s, as President Richard Nixon and the House of Representatives encouraged the anti-busing movement, the Senate remained the last bastion for those who supported strong integration policies. Biden stormed that bastion, and it seemed to be falling. On September 23, another border-state Democrat moved against busing. Robert Byrd, the West Virginian who had since repudiated his Klan past, offered a perfecting amendment. It would prohibit busing beyond a student’s nearest school. It passed the Senate by a vote of 51-45.

snip

[ucrdem]

155. That legislation only addresses forced busing tied to federal education funds.

It does not preclude locally legislated busing. It was the US Supreme Court that declared that all such policies unconstitutional in 2007.

[Celerity]

172. Louisville is still bussing, I already posted an in depth article on it

And the Helms amendment that Biden supported on multiple occasions went far beyond just bussing.

It would prevent the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare (HEW) from collecting any data about the race of students or teachers. In addition, HEW could not “require any school … to classify teachers or students by race.”

and Biden's own amendment was passed

Immediately after the Helms amendment was tabled, Biden proposed his own amendment to the $36 billion education bill, stipulating that none of those federal funds could be used by school systems “to assign teachers or students to schools … for reasons of race.” His amendment would prevent “some faceless bureaucrat” from “deciding that any child, black or white, should fit in some predetermined ratio.” He explained, “All the amendment says is that some bureaucrat sitting down there in HEW cannot tell a school district whether it is properly segregated or desegregated, or whether it should or should not have funds.” Finally, Biden called busing “an asinine policy.”

Brooke pointed out that the amendment would do much more than Biden claimed. Like the Helms gambit, it would still gut Title VI of the Civil Rights Act.

That denied federal funds for remedies for both de jure (Southern-style) AND de facto (Northern style) segregation.


Biden also was still supporting the Helms amendment being passed in the 1980's

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/97-1981/s240


finally


‘Forced busing’ didn’t fail. Desegregation is the best way to improve our schools.

Racial achievement gaps were narrowest at the height of school integration.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/10/23/forced-busing-didnt-fail-desegregation-is-the-best-way-to-improve-our-schools/?utm_term=.754bfe081c9d

[ucrdem]

174. Biden's legislation addressed federal funding. It didn't preclude busing. nt

[Celerity]

180. you must not be reading

Immediately after the Helms amendment was tabled, Biden proposed his own amendment to the $36 billion education bill, stipulating that none of those federal funds could be used by school systems

“to assign teachers or students to schools … for reasons of race.”

Bottom line, Biden was dead wrong, the fact-checks lit his claims up, and he then unbelievably offered up a goddamn state's rights defence to Senator Harris.

It was all round fail. It was a bad look, and shows potential (emphasis on potential to be far and give a large benefit of the doubt to him) systemic weaknesses once again starting to crop up with far too often regularity. He was also very shaky at the Poor Peoples' Campaign event.

I wont even get into his bizarre 'The NRA is not an enemy' bollocks, as that is outside the scope of this narrow discussion.

He really needs to up his game soon, or he will start to crater out.

[ucrdem]

181. "federal funds." You bolded it. nt

[Celerity]

182. yes, no federal funds to assign teachers or students to schools

the amendment says is that some bureaucrat sitting down there in HEW cannot tell a school district whether it is properly segregated or desegregated, or whether it should or should not have funds.” Finally, Biden called busing “an asinine policy.”

Brooke pointed out that the amendment would do much more than Biden claimed. Like the Helms gambit, it would still gut Title VI of the Civil Rights Act.

Watching his liberal colleagues defect, Republican Jacob Javits of New York mused, “They’re scared to death on busing.” The Senate approved Biden’s amendment. Biden had managed to turn a 48-43 loss for the anti-busing forces into a 50-43 victory.

you are just being pedantic now

[ucrdem]

187. That is what Biden said he opposed last night.

Long and short: he wasn't wrong.

[hedda_foil]

239. "none of those federal funds could be used by school systems to assign teachers or students" by race

In other words, Biden's amendment would ensure that federal funds could NOT be used to integrate schools.

The Supreme Court's ruling was the death knell of school integration but Biden was ahead of them. This is fucking appalling!

[whopis01]

291. Do you have anything to back that up?

Other than the statement he made at the debate?

[sacto95834]

73. i was wondering when this would surface...

Its not new

[pangaia]

78. Thank you for this informative post.

I have no favorite........... yet.

[EffieBlack]

42. He was strongly opposed to busing then

And not just the mandates from the Department of Education.

He called it a "bankrupt concept" and was highly critical of it as a desegregation remedy. He pushed legislation that would defund virtually all busing, even the voluntary locally-decided measures that Harris was a part of and that he praised last night. He regularly spoke out against it.

He didn't tell the truth when he said he wasn't opposed to it.

[womanofthehills]

231. Very BAD Biden quote from 1970's

While Biden’s recent comments made the news, far less attention has been paid to the former vice president’s actual record. In the 1970s, then-Senator Biden was a fierce critic of Delaware’s attempts to bus students in an effort to integrate its schools. In a recently unearthed interview from 1975, Biden said, quote, “We’ve lost our bearings since the 1954 Brown v. School Board desegregation case. … To 'desegregate' is different than to 'integrate.'” He went on to say, quote, “The real problem with busing is that you take [white] people who aren’t racist, people who are good citizens, who believe in equal education and opportunity, and you stunt their children’s intellectual growth by busing them to an inferior school,” unquote. CNN recently revealed that in 1977 Biden wrote a letter to the segregationist Senator James Eastland thanking him for supporting his anti-busing legislation.

https://www.democracynow.org/2019/6/25/joe_biden_anti_busing_segregation_history

[Cha]

20. "Lied" about what?!

[EffieBlack]

46. He didn't tell the truth when he said he wasn't opposed to busting

He was staunchly opposed to it and used his power to try to stop it across the country. His legislation didn't just affect court-ordered busing, but also the voluntary programs that Harris involved in.

[ucrdem]

66. But not in all cases.

So to say he opposed it entirely is not correct.

[EffieBlack]

85. Oh, please

She didn't say he opposed busing in every single instance. But he did say he didn't oppose busing in America. That's not true. He was strongly opposed to busing except in cases where intentional segregation was proven, which was the position taken by segregationists because intentional segregation was virtually impossible to prove in the north.

Claiming he didn't oppose busing because he carved out one narrow and rare exception is the equivalent of saying that someone working to ban abortion in every instance except when the mother's life is at risk isn't anti-abortion,

[ucrdem]

93. What do you think would have been a better answer?

I thought he did about the best he could do with that one

[EffieBlack]

100. He could have talked about why he took the position he did then and whether and why he evolved since

and then pivoted to talk about the benefits that desegregation remedies (of which busing was only a small part) had not just for young black students like Kamala but also for white students who also benefitted greatly from the diversity that desegregation afforded them.

He could have expressed regret for some of the language he used at the time that he knows now can sound loaded and harsh but reaffirmed his commitment to ensuring equal educational opportunities to all children, regardless their color, economic status or zip code.

And he could DEFINITELY not invoked a state's rights argument to defend his past position or argued that the federal government was out of line in mandating that school districts comply the Supreme Court orders to follow the Constitution.

And that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure he could have come up with some excellent responses had he prepared himself adequately.

[ucrdem]

103. Those are good.

He'll need to give a longer answer in due course so I hope his campaign reads DU!

[EffieBlack]

107. It doesn't even need to be a long answer

It could be much shorter than the one I laid out - just a few talking points.

[mcar]

197. You know, Effie, I bet that is pretty much what he believes

It would be good to hear him say something like that.

[EffieBlack]

217. I think so, too. I just can't understand why he's having so much trouble saying it

Is it because he has an aversion to admitting he was wrong? Or is he afraid to alienate some people who still believe in state's rights and oppose integration? Or something else altogether.

Whatever it is, he needs to address it before it becomes an even bigger problem.

[mcar]

218. I agree

[uponit7771]

211. +1

[Perseus]

152. How about simply admitting he was wrong then?

One of the problems with Biden is that he is first a politician then whatever else, but he will change his tune for votes, and that is not good.

We need a candidate who stays true to his principles, who doesn't change opinion with the tide like he did last night when he didn't raise his hand to then when asked why he didn't say he did...

[ucrdem]

158. According to the Supreme Court he wasn't wrong. nt

[EffieBlack]

163. According to the Supreme Court of the 1970s he was dead wrong

But he was right in line with the post-2005 Roberts Court.

Not much better defense than the state's rights argument.

You might want to quit before you dig him an even deeper hole ...

[ucrdem]

164. I don't think reviving 1970s-era busing is a winning issue. nt

[Celerity]

19. a state's right defence (given in 2019) by a Democrat is an effective answer???

[ucrdem]

23. That's a better position than where we are now:

In 2007 the Supreme Court ruled that assigning students to schools on the basis of race is unconstitutional. So much for busing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parents_Involved_in_Community_Schools_v._Seattle_School_District_No._1

[True Blue American]

25. Busing destroyed neighborhood Schools

Cause a lot of the demise of cities.

[ucrdem]

29. And gave rise to charter schools.

And it was a gift to parochial schools too which were dying on the vine until busing came along.

[True Blue American]

76. Yes

And Charter Schools made a killing ripping off money from public Education under Kasich.to his friends!

https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/2018/08/both_democratic_and_gop_office.html

Yet they elected DeWine who made a half hearted attempt to file a law suit while running for Governor. Never touched it as AG.

[Celerity]

43. The City That Believed in Desegregation. Integration isn't easy, but Louisville, Kentucky, has

decided that it's worth it

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/the-city-that-believed-in-desegregation/388532/

snip

The Supreme Court decided against Jefferson County, ruling in favor of a parent who argued that her son’s bus ride was too long. But in the years since, the district has found other creative ways of keeping its schools diverse. Today, the Louisville area is one of the few regions in the country that still buses students among urban and suburban neighborhoods. Jefferson County Public Schools is 49 percent white, 37 percent black, and 14 percent Latino and other ethnic and racial groups.

The county, which borders Indiana on the south, spreads across 400 square miles and encompasses census tracts in which more than half of the population lives below the poverty level, and tracts in which less than 10 percent does. But there are no struggling inner-city schools here—the city and county schools are under the same district, and the most sought-after high school within it, duPont Manual, is located near downtown.

Indeed, it could be argued that Louisville, an economically vibrant city in a highly conservative and segregated state, is a success today in large part because of its integrated schools and the collaborations among racial and economic groups that have come as a result. “Our PTA president will drive downtown into neighborhoods she probably would not have gone to, to pick up kids to bring to her house for sleepovers,” said Jessica Rosenthal, the principal at Hawthorne Elementary. “I just don’t know how likely that is to happen in a normal school setting.”

snip

The integration plan in Jefferson County and Louisville might not be perfect, but the very fact that the region is still trying to work together and provide equal opportunity to all of its students makes it stand out, said Gary Orfield, of the Civil Rights Project. When most other regions have given up, or fought integration plans with every resource, Louisville has continued to strive for diversity. In 2012, for example, half of the 14 candidates running for Jefferson County School Board ran on a platform of replacing the school-assignment policy with one that would have let students attend their neighborhood schools. All seven candidates were defeated at the polls

That conscious commitment to diversity indicates that Louisville is still thinking about how to try and make things fair, Orfield said. “School integration was never meant to be the only solution, but it is it is an essential and necessary element, they’ve at least kept that going, in spite of all kinds of problems over the years,” Orfield said. “They believe it works, not perfectly but a lot better than the alternatives.” It’s possible that commitment to diversity is a result of the integration that was forced on the region, in the 1970s. Now, people who grew up in integrated schools want the same for their children.


snip
.

[tishaLA]

279. Thanks for posting that NT

[LovingA2andMI]

54. It's NEVER a Defense.....

Never ever to any answer regarding Bussing Segregation of the late 1960's and 1970's or any Civil Rights issue of that time either.

[Zambero]

101. Then and now

The world has changed in some (but not all) ways for the better. To cite an example, it wasn't that long ago that Democrats were jumping on the "Defense of Marriage" bandwagon, with President Clinton eagerly waiting with pen in hand. Even Obama was on record as opposing marriage equality when first running for the presidency.

[EffieBlack]

111. Then he should talk about it that way

Not double down with a state's rights defense.

[Zambero]

138. Agree

I would hope that is forthcoming. Point is, if one cares to go back far enough to closely examine the details of one's political career, there are things said, positions taken, votes cast, deals made, discussions had, and compromises made that will not always square with the direction that a civil society has taken in the ensuing years. Progressive means making progress, and that also indicates a point of reference from which things will continue change for the better. Again, I hope that Biden will be able to provide further clarification and take less of a defensive posture.

[appalachiablue]

38. TV pundits were all over it this am, in the breakfast clubs/new shows.

Yammering about many topics

[LovingA2andMI]

49. No, he did not!

States Right? Really....That's your version of a effective answer?

[ucrdem]

69. No, not states rights. He did not say that. nt

[LovingA2andMI]

87. Ummm...

"In response, Biden called Harris’s comments a “mischaracterization of my position across the board,” and disputed her account. “I did not praise racists, that is not true,” he said. “In terms of busing, you would have been able to go to school the same exact way because it was a local decision made by your city council.” (State's Rights #1 -- but Biden was completely off the mark with this statement as nearly NO City Council makes decisions for Public Schools. That would be the ELECTED SCHOOL BOARD.)

Harris then directly asked Biden: “Do you agree today that you were wrong to oppose busing in America?”

He answered: I did not oppose busing in America. I opposed busing by the Department of Education. (i.e. State's Rights #2 and this one is blatant)

Harris replied: “But that is where the federal government must step in.”

https://time.com/5615960/2020-democratic-debate-night-2/

[ucrdem]

91. In other words, he didn't say it. YOU said it.

And no, Berkeley does not equal California.

[LovingA2andMI]

108. He Said It....

No one is dumb here not to be able to READ WHAT IS CLEARLY BEFORE their face or heard by the ears.

TRY AGAIN!!!

[ucrdem]

115. He clearly didn't say it. He said "local decision." nt

[LovingA2andMI]

149. Ummm.....

No. Try Again....One Last Time....

"HARRIS: But, Vice President Biden, do you agree today — do you agree today that you were wrong to oppose busing in America then? Do you agree?

BIDEN: I did not oppose busing in America. What I opposed is busing ordered by the Department of Education. That’s what I opposed. I did not oppose ——

HARRIS: Well, there was a failure of states to integrate public schools in America. I was part of the second class to integrate Berkeley, California, public schools almost two decades after Brown v. Board of Education.

BIDEN: Because your city council made that decision. It was a local decision.

HARRIS: So that’s where the federal government must step in.

BIDEN: The federal government ——"

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/us/politics/kamala-harris-joe-biden-busing.html

Let's Get This Straight, Shall We....

First, Biden did oppose Integrated Busing in America as noted here:

"The response illustrates the firm political footing on which Biden stood as a freshman lawmaker when he opposed government-mandated busing, a policy that roiled Wilmington, Del., and other major metropolitan areas in the 1970s.

“The new integration plans being offered are really just quota systems to assure a certain number of blacks, Chicanos, or whatever in each school. That, to me, is the most racist concept you can come up with,” the senator from Delaware told a home-state newspaper in 1975. “Who the hell do we think we are, that the only way a black man or woman can learn is if they rub shoulders with my white child?"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/28/joe-biden-kamala-harris-busing-integration-schools/?utm_term=.1d2ea8d6c699

That Senator was Joe Biden, by the way.

Next, what does this mean?

BIDEN: Because your city council made that decision. It was a local decision.

A City Council DOES NOT IN 90% of most cases makes a decision about Public School Busing. That would be the ELECTED SCHOOL BOARD (we have repeated ourselves so much on this fact in the last 24 hours on this FACT - its becoming tiring).

Lastly, this....

BIDEN: The federal government ——"

What was Biden's question here or half a sentence. OF COURSE the Federal Government had to STEP IN as the Federal Government COOPERATIVELY FUNDS AMERICA'S PUBLIC SCHOOLS as they did in the late 1960's and 1970's.

Oh one more thing.....This:

"Swann v. Charlotte-Mecklenburg Board of Education, case in which, on April 20, 1971, the Supreme Court of the United States unanimously upheld busing programs that aimed to speed up the racial integration of public schools in the United States.

In 1954 the Supreme Court ruled in Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka that racial segregation in public schools was unconstitutional. However, because of racially segregated housing patterns and resistance by local leaders, many schools remained as segregated in the late 1960s as they were at the time of the Brown decision.

In Charlotte, North Carolina, for example, in the mid-1960s less than 5 percent of African American children attended integrated schools. Indeed, busing was used by white officials to maintain segregation. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), on behalf of Vera and Darius Swann, the parents of a six-year-old child, sued the Charlotte-Mecklenburg school district to allow their son to attend Seversville Elementary School, the school closest to their home and then one of Charlotte’s few integrated schools. James McMillan, the federal district judge in the case, ruled in favour of the Swanns and oversaw the implementation of a busing strategy that integrated the district’s schools. McMillan’s decision was appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, which upheld it. The busing strategy was adopted elsewhere in the United States and played an instrumental role in integrating U.S. public schools."

https://www.britannica.com/event/Swann-v-Charlotte-Mecklenburg-Board-of-Education

Biden still said this four years later AFTER Swann v. Charlotte-Mecklenburg Board of Education:

“The new integration plans being offered are really just quota systems to assure a certain number of blacks, Chicanos, or whatever in each school. That, to me, is the most racist concept you can come up with,” the senator from Delaware told a home-state newspaper in 1975. “Who the hell do we think we are, that the only way a black man or woman can learn is if they rub shoulders with my white child?"

Full Stop with the SPIN please. The Facts are what they are and Joe needs to atone for his statements and role or get out of the race. Period.

[ucrdem]

169. Still no mention of states rights. nt

[LovingA2andMI]

175. This the Best you can do huh???

Have a good afternoon. It appears you need to do just that.

[ucrdem]

176. Thank you

And same to you!

[justie18]

96. Well

Were you listening - did you not hear him end with 'anyway, my time is up'!!!!!

Talk about white male entitlement.

[comradebillyboy]

7. Biden simply was unprepared to answer an obvious question.

Joe really needs to up his game from last night's performance.

[Perseus]

14. He was unprepared because he has no answer for that question

You either support an issue or you don't, but to give a lame answer that he did not support it because it was a "local" decision? You either help an issue you believe in move up the ladder, and show commitment to it, or you don't, he didn't so he doesn't have an answer.

I want to hear his excuse for the show of support to the NRA...Its the manufacturers fault, NOT THE NRA....Are you kidding?

Didn't the NRA funnel money from Russia to help elect the buffoon? Didn't they cozy up to Butina? etc., etc....ok, multiply etc times 10,000.

[LovingA2andMI]

51. Well, just like "States Rights"....

He Will not have an answer for his "NRA Non-Fault" quipp.

[KPN]

59. Yeah, he really just tried to wallpaper his past. But one's past is always there in pretty plain

view. That was a mistake on his part. I think Joe would have done better to just say that was a mistake on his part and that he has learned a lot since then. He needs to take ownership of his past and show us how and why his positions have genuinely changed since then.

[Hoyt]

60. Busing, he was awful. But, honestly, the NRA is primarily funded by gun manufacturers

and gun profiteers. The Board of Directors includes most gun manufacturers, along with Ted Nugent and right wing politicians.

The NRA and gun manufacturers are really the same bunch of white wingers. Point is, NRA or gun manufacturers, it's the same bunch.

[Perseus]

166. The NRA may be funded by gun manufacturers which make the NRA a tool. mercenaries

The NRA has not only helped the Russians meddle in our elections, they gave Butina full support, they are traitors, they are mercenaries to the gun industry, they have no morals, and you are going to defend that?

There is no good answer for his defense of the NRA, they are the ones who push laws, who lobby, who profit from citizens who are gullible enough to become members and give them money, etc.

There is no defense for what Biden said last night, and his mouth is his worst enemy of which republicans will toast on.

We need to stop being so fanatical, I repeat myself, Biden is not Obama, he will never be Obama, and he will not win in 2020 if he is elected. Republicans wet dream is that Biden becomes the nominee, anyone who believes the buffoon is afraid of him is not reading the small print.

Defending the NRA is as close as the defense of the latest republican scandal of this guy who was caught spending campaign money with many women and decided that it was the fault of the "deep state", easy to blame someone else for your faults.

[Hoyt]

171. If there were no gun manufacturers/profiteers, there would not be today's NRA.

Today's NRA is a white wing terrorist group. Biden didn't defend the NRA, he bashed them by association.

[Perseus]

188. No he didn't, his words were "The NRA is not the problem, it is the gun manufacturer's"

To me, that sounds like a defense.

Even though he committed the crime, he is not guilty your honor, he was given money to do so, the one guilty is the donor. At which point they are both guilty, Biden clearly defended the NRA.

[Hoyt]

189. Sorry, the NRA is essentially the lobbying arm of gun manufacturers/profiteers.

They both are guilty. In fact, if Biden had merely blamed the NRA, he'd be leaving out the biggest backer of slack gun laws in this country.

[Perseus]

191. Exactly, so why did he defend the NRA?

Of course the NRA is the problem, they are the face and tool of the manufacturers, they are the ones who bribe republicans into passing, or not passing laws that benefit them, they are the political arm, so why defend them?

[gldstwmn]

268. +1000

[Thekaspervote]

63. Meh

[Thekaspervote]

62. He knew it was coming, it was 50 years ago. Different times call for different actions

And NO he didn’t lie!!

[Kind of Blue]

9. I'll buy that. He better up his game because 45 will be coming at him

with a shitload that he has to be ready for. I mean a shitload and we haven't even gotten there yet. He's got some time.

[Perseus]

22. 45 wants him, he is the easiest target Democrats have, so much baggage

The buffoon has already started mocking Biden, reverse psychology to the Democratic voting masses. He really wants Biden, he knows Biden doesn't have the character to fight him, he knows Biden likes to be liked and be decent, and with the buffoon and the republicans you have to be strong, willing to fight, aggressive, and take no crap from any of them, and the buffoon knows Biden will not do that.

How many times have people heard Biden refer to McConnell as "Mitch"?

Like many, I dismissed Bill de Blasio before the debates, but I find that he will be intimidating to the buffoon, de Blasio has access to information in New York to go against him, de Blasio will stand in front of the buffoon and look down on him, the buffoon will crap his pants right there on the stage.

Just imagine Putin standing in front of de Blasio, a 6'5" standing by a 5'7", looking down on him, it will be better than the Obama look on Putin.

[appalachiablue]

45. Watching de Blasio apologize to Wolf on CNN for the Che Guevara

quote at a rally with striking airport strikers in Miami was weird. It was last night before the debate, Wolf relayed that it offended Cuban Americans. Fla Dems complained and made a fuss about the Marxist, Rubio chimed in. I posted an article in Gen. Dis.

[Thekaspervote]

64. If you think Biden will not stand up to trump you haven't been reading what he's saying

Past or present

[marylandblue]

215. Biden was much too surprised and defensive in his response to Harris

And has been on the issue all week. Trump will attack everything Biden has done for the last 40 years. Is Biden going to be defensive about all of it? Is he going to tell us try to explain whythe bankruptcy was good despite the damage it caused to ordinary families? Who cares? I'd rather he just say it was the best we could do at the time, here's how to fix it now...

But I haven't heard that kind of answer from Biden. Rather I hear him indignantly defending these old rancid sausages. It's a bad place to be.

Personally, I don't blame Biden for anything he did. But if experience has any value, it's that you learn from your mistakes and you learn how to fix them. It's said he can do this. But I haven't seen that from his own mouth yet.

[Kind of Blue]

120. "he knows Biden likes to be liked and be decent..."

And therein lies my problem with him, he wants it both ways - do nasty things that breaks my heart, that I won't go into here though I'm itching to talk about - and likes the aura of nice guy that the GOP could Easily take down in a heartbeat.

"Like many, I dismissed Bill de Blasio before the debates, but I find that he will be intimidating to the buffoon, de Blasio has access to information in New York to go against him, de Blasio will stand in front of the buffoon and look down on him, the buffoon will crap his pants right there on the stage."

Yesss, I've only seen yours and one other who've noticed this and spoke to it as well. I love de Blasio's stature, bravado and the optics of one strong man on our side versus a predatory, pedophile, rapist who looms over women as a show of the most repugnant of strength. Good Lord! there must be added security for women - Warren, Harris, Klobachar, who I have no doubt will tell him to step the fuck off. I think added security has to be clear to highlight 45's propensity to take advantage of masculinity to dominate the sex who die in awful numbers to this day to give birth to us all. Respect to we who bring life, Please.

"Just imagine Putin standing in front of de Blasio, a 6'5" standing by a 5'7", looking down on him, it will be better than the Obama look on Putin."

Sigh...I miss those fuck you Putin days after 43 saw the awesome soul of Putin just by looking at his eyes.

[Perseus]

203. This is a video showing Biden with "Mitch"

[link:https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10153166537870579|

I know it was his duty to confirm the turtle, but it is his attitude that bothers me, his wanting to be liked by all.

[LiberalLovinLug]

173. Trump could chew him up.

What struck me was, his deflective answer of course, but also the WAY he answered. Deer in the headlights, stuttering, repeating. Biden is smart, and has always been quick on his feet, but age is creeping up on him. I'm not confident that Biden is the fighter we need against Trump. And he's behind the times by a decade at least when it comes to dealing with Republicans. I don't know if he actually believes that Republicans want to compromise as much as he does with them on issues today, or if its an outdated political talking point he just repeats out of habit.

We have to understand this will not be a fair fight. Trump will have the "luxury" of his base not caring if he uses outright lies, while we do (just look at this thread topic). They won't care how abusive and bullying he is. In fact they live for that. I want a confident aggressive leader who can't be stalled instantly because of an uncomfortable question. Trump will have a list of them to confront him, if he ever gets into a debate.

[Kind of Blue]

208. "I want a confident aggressive leader who can't be stalled instantly

because of an uncomfortable question... I'm not confident that Biden is the fighter we need against Trump. And he's behind the times by a decade at least when it comes to dealing with Republicans. I don't know if he actually believes that Republicans want to compromise as much as he does with them on issues today, or if its an outdated political talking point he just repeats out of habit."

OMG, LiberalLovinLug, that's what I'm talking about. I virtually kiss the heck out of you Let's fight to the finish for this liberal party that can truly consider heavy weights other than Biden. We have them and there's time to think, flip-flop, discuss and not be peer pressured by those who see nothing wrong with he who bowed out early in at least 3 other presidential races. And let's not even go into why, it's already red meat for 45. They're ready for him and he showed last night he's not ready for us

[LiberalLovinLug]

242. Thank you

Biden has been great for the party. And he did a stellar job as VP to Obama. He's a fighter but from another era. When it was more about cajoling another "good fellow from the other side of the aisle", taking him out for drinks, inviting him over for dinner even. Sharing a few laughs. And finally he relents and votes for the Democratic provisions in a bill. With a nudge nudge wink wink about returning the favor in the next bill that comes up.

This new Republican, especially the Trumpiest of them all, just throws the drink back in their face and laughs about it. If you charge them with assault they just won't show up in court, because they know the judge.

I think a lot of the senior Democrats, including Joe, have lost touch with their own base. They don't understand the hunger out there for real change, and a real fight. They live in this Washington bubble, where a conservative Washington press tells them they live in a conservative country, and better tread carefully, and be afraid of Fox News.

[Bayard]

10. The main problem I saw

He didn't get to finish his answer.

[R B Garr]

17. That's what I saw. Along with his pledge not to go after

Dems, it was obvious he just let it go with the limited time, etc. Plus her anger and crying.....

[Perseus]

24. Oh please...this had nothing to do about not going after another democrat

This was an easy answer if he had one, which he did not.

He did answer but it was a lame answer about not voting for it because it was a local decision. You either support a cause or you don't, but you don't backup because you don't like the person who introduced the bill.

How about his support to the NRA?

How about his answer to Bennet on his "negotiating skills"?

[R B Garr]

33. Yes, it did. He was everyone's target and it showed. No one

went after Harris’s record of proposing policies about jailing parents, etc.

It’s obvious that Biden is the target and he has pledged not to attack other Dems.

I saw her anger and tears and it was obvious what his reaction would be.

“Oh please” yourself.

[Thekaspervote]

67. We're you there?!!! It was a different time

His answer as mentioned above was appropriate but he was unable to finish. Just didn’t blather on past his time as others did

[Perseus]

190. Harris gave him a chance to answer on is views now

And he did not answer.

The bottom line is that Biden, in my opinion, will not be the fighter we need. I think there is nostalgia for the Obama years, and Biden is not Obama, not even close.

We either find the best candidate or we are doomed, there is no room for fanatism.

[Kind of Blue]

133. ...

[R B Garr]

247. How utterly ridiculous to make busing an issue some 40 years

later. So much for “progressive” ideas. JFC I guess this isn’t an election about the future...

[mcar]

198. Her anger and crying?

Was she shrill, too?

[R B Garr]

251. She choked back tears and said she was hurt.

The reality is that she mischaracterized what Biden said, presumably to fit her planned narrative.....busing. Really?! Using “hurt” was also not a good look.

She’s my Senator. I voted for her, btw. Booker also misrepresented Biden, too.

[mcar]

253. She did get choked up. No tears

Saying she was hurt is expressing a feeling, not anger.

Looks like Biden gave a good speech today. He can take it - or he shouldn't be the front runner.

[R B Garr]

255. She came across as angry, sorry. Wasn't it supposed to be an

emotionally charged accusation? If she had to misrepresent what Biden was saying, then what and who actually hurt her??

Her predecessor, Boxer, had some good insight into the exchange on MSNBC. Frontrunner or not, none of our candidates should be subjected to misinformation accusations/campaigns.

[LovingA2andMI]

58. He was falling straight into the rabbit hole....

The moment he mentioned "States Rights". Thank Goodness he did not finish that answer after that statement.

[MaryMagdaline]

12. It's not an intellectual failing on his part. I think she got to his soul.

He was actually hearing and internalizing I think. He should acknowledge the flaw that she revealed.

[ancianita]

31. Like it or not, he responded with two important things: historical context and his overall record

[ucrdem]

35. Yes it seemed to me he was ready for the question.

He didn't get emotional and he didn't go on and on, but if he'd done either it would have been fatal. So he answered about as well as he could.

[marieo1]

34. My opinion - Biden

Joe Biden was caught completely off guard by Harris' remarks. Everyone else was telling us what they would do for our country and how they would do it and all of a sudden Harris went into attack mode. I'm still not sure what she stands for, she didn't impress me at all. In my opinion, it was uncalled for and shows how desperately she wants the presidency. No one on that stage attacked anyone except Harris. Joe Biden has done more for our country than anyone on that stage and we should never forget that and give him the respect he deserves.

[Thekaspervote]

71. Like it or not... this will NOT help her position! She was way over the top with emotion

Not a presidential look

[onetexan]

94. i've been saying that all along. Her misplaced indignance showed her being flippant and lacking in

self-composure. Not a good sign for a candidate for the highest job in the world.

[LovingA2andMI]

110. No....

Biden needs to study up and come to a Debate PREPARED next time to account for his Bussing Segregation Supporting Past and Atone for it. He should take a lesson from Mayor Pete from when one did wrong -- Just Admit You Did and Move On.

Biden cannot fight this. The record is clear. He needs to admit, apologize and then and only then --- maybe he can move on to policy -- if he has it.

If not, he's DONE!

[mcar]

200. Joe Biden still gets choked up when he talks about the deaths of his wife and baby girl

I find it endearing. But here with go with the emotional woman isn't presidential nonsense.

Me, I want a president who isn't afraid to show emotion.

[onetexan]

89. +1 K&R

[BeyondGeography]

36. Spot on, he could have turned it into a winning moment for himself

Or he could have taken Cory Booker up on his invitation to apologize two weeks ago, in which case Harris would have been seen as overreaching. Instead he apparently thought it was all put to bed with a couple of canned pre-Fish Fry quotes from Lewis and Clyburn. The door was still open and Harris kicked it in.

It will be interesting to see where he goes from here. He could probably use is a well-written speech discussing his evolution on race that includes some genuine humility. No use staying up on Mt. Inevitability when you’re really not up there anymore.

[Thekaspervote]

75. What reports...please rerference!!

[Camaromjr]

41. I saw Biden take that shot through the heart.

My interpretation is that Harris' spoke from the heart and her words went straight through Biden's heart. Harris looked strong and Biden took a real hit. A hit that shook him, as it would most of us. He was standing on stage confronted by a real, living, consequence of his past record. I think it showed that Biden is really human and this touched him. I have liked Biden for years. He is a good, decent man that has experienced real tragedy in his life.

I would campaign for Joe Biden with full energy.

I like the Warren / Harris ticket a lot.

[colorado_ufo]

44. The issue of busing kids was more complicated than it appears on the surface.

Plus, the complications varied and intensified state by state. It was a difficult situation with no easy solution: How do you integrate schools, when neighborhoods were so effectively segregated? And if black schools were substandard, was it an improvement to bus white students from far neighborhoods to them, which was necessary? Yet, black students absolutely needed more opportunities. A Catch-22, without good alternatives.

Biden's choice may be wrong, but it should be viewed in the light of the times, in a complicated situation. And nobody makes the right decision every time - it comes with being human.

Times have changed, and with the passing of time, much is forgotten. It would have been better for Biden to look Harris in the eye and say, "I am so very glad that you benefited from the busing program; you have contributed so much good and continue to contribute. Hindsight is an easy 20/20, and if I had the ability to see all outcomes, surely I would have made a different decision. But like all of us here tonight, including yourself, we do the best of which we are capable at any moment."

Harris is an extremely accomplished prosecutor, and this was a planned emotional attack, meant to throw him off balance. Prefacing it by saying that she did not think Biden was a racist only focused people's minds on that possibility. Like Mark Antony saying in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar: "Brutus is an honorable man."

My opinion is that she should have kept it in her arsenal for later.

[WinstonSmith4740]

57. You'd think we were a week away from the election!

I see people already lighting their hair on fire. You're absolutely right...there was no fatal blow last night, but he needs to step it up a beat, especially if he's going to get hit with the age issue. I keep going back to the first Obama/Romney debate. Obama seemed distracted and did not do well at all. But he cleaned Romney's clock in the next two. It's early. People need to chill. As long as we are ready to vote for whoever gets the nomination, we can't afford the circular firing squad...the stakes are simply too high this time.

That being said, yeah, Harris had a really good night.

[Thekaspervote]

77. Yes, people are fired up I get it!! But tears and an emotional outburst...this will not help her

[stillcool]

99. what tears?..

and what emotional outburst? Good God.

[mcar]

201. Right?

Is she an angry woman or too emotional? I cannot believe we are seeing this on DU.

[gldstwmn]

269. Same.

[LovingA2andMI]

114. There was not one tear that came from Kamala's Eyes...

That was Fire. Know the difference.

[EffieBlack]

118. Are you referring to Biden or Harris?

I didn't see either of them crying or having an emotional outburst. Which one of them are you talking about?

[GumboYaYa]

74. Biden was 100% correct when he said, "My time is up."

We have a deep bench of young talent. It is their time now.

[Thekaspervote]

80. Snark!

[ucrdem]

82. I'm glad he shut himself up.

No it wasn't a star turn but he'd said what he needed to say and it's better to shut up than say something he'd regret later.

[obamanut2012]

81. Black women are also aggressive and angry a lot

Seriously, many of the tweets I saw last night and today by "good progressives," and even some posts here, really don't get that is what they are implying.

Love Kamala, and just changed from her to Warren, but my support is literally about 50/50, and I admire and support them both.

[patphil]

84. Challenging Biden like that is a necessary part of the process

Joe has to be prepared to answer difficult questions regarding his past positions. If he gets the nomination, it's 100% certain he will be attacked on these issues by Trump.
In that context, Harris is doing him a favor.
He will have to be ready to defend his record.

Patrick Phillips

[EffieBlack]

92. I remember a time

When a certain female candidate was mocked as "Her Majesty" because she supposedly thought she was a frontrunner who shouldn't have her record challenged.

And now, here we are ...

[emulatorloo]

144. Why are you reviving that nasty false meme? HRC thought no such thing, nor does Biden as far

as I can tell. I love your posts, this one you should consider self deleting.

I like both Harris and Biden, btw. I believe that meme hurts all our candidates.

[EffieBlack]

150. Please reread my post and note the "supposedly"

I didn't agree with that assessment but am just pointing out the double standard.

I don't believe Hillary thought any such thing, but I do see Biden supporters arguing he should be treated with kid gloves because he's the frontrunner.

[emulatorloo]

170. I read your post. If Kamala Harris was attacked in a similar way, Senator Harris supporters would

not be happy at all. I think your characterization of what DU Biden are saying isn’t correct.

I have not seen a single post where anyone argues that Biden “should be treated with kid gloves because he’s the front runner”

Saying that Democrats shouldn’t attack each other and instead focus on their strengths and on attacking Trump isn’t the same as how you characterized it.

I like Harris. I believe this was a mis-step on her part. You believe otherwise. That’s fine. Time will tell.

My short list is Harris, Warren, Biden, Mayor Pete, and Booker.

As I say, love your threads. Have a great weekend!

[mudstump]

86. Biden equals Trump win.

[Cha]

116. No.. you're Wrong.

[Still In Wisconsin]

90. I think it was a fatal blow to Biden.

She hit him hard- good, that's supposed to happen during primary season- and he floundered in his response. Badly.

Joe Biden will not be the nominee, imho.

[Cha]

119. Haha.. No.. No "fatal blows" for Biden..

It was so "fatal".. Biden got this Endorsement this morning.. After the so-called "bloodbath"..

Biden lands 2020 endorsement from Atlanta Mayor Bottoms

"The larger context was that you have to work across the aisle with people you don't like, people you don't agree with," Bottoms said. "I do it each and every day as mayor of Atlanta in a red state."

Bottoms added that Biden's work on civil rights issues and his progressive resume demonstrate his commitment and that the remarks were blown out of proportion.

"My position is, if his explanation was good enough for John Lewis, then it's good enough for me," Bottoms added, referring to the Georgia congressman and civil rights icon who was among Biden's defenders after the controversy.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/biden-nabs-2020-endorsement-atlanta-mayor-bottoms-64012750

[peggysue2]

134. Yeah, you wish

You and Chris Matthews!

[emulatorloo]

147. Yes DU has already predicted many many 'fatal blows' for Biden.

But DU is a bit of a bubble and doesn’t represent the views of real world Democrats

[Thekaspervote]

235. Amen to that... if you don't think so, do some of your own personal polling

Democrats are not looking at things under a magnifying glass as so many here do

[Honeycombe8]

98. He answered it effectively. I researched it afterwards. He was correct. She has misrepresented it.

He had not "opposed busing in America." He opposed a federal mandate of it, for various reasons.

'Nuff said. She was incorrect in her facts, but I get that she disagreed with not mandating it. She clearly thinks it should have been forced and paid for. But that's what she should say, not misrepresent what he did and say he opposed it in America, which he did not do.

[EffieBlack]

102. The fact that his response is the lead story from the debate is proof he didn't answer effectively

When most observers agree him screwed up the answer, his supporters are all over the internet trying to thread the needle for him ("he didn't oppose ALL busing, just the kind made necessary by the people who refused to desegregate their schools on their own&quot and fact-checkers are telling him "whoa, Dude, not so fast," that's a clear sign his response wasn't even close to being effective.

[emulatorloo]

154. Media is driven by 2 things: 1- a shallow horse race narrative and 2-tearing Democrats down

You’ll note most media is skeptical/critical of Democrats and treat Republicans with wide eyed wonder.

So I take media “opinions” with a huge boulder of salt.

[EffieBlack]

156. How do you define "effective" in the context of a debate?

if you don't think media coverage and narrative are relevant considerations?

[pnwmom]

241. She didn't misrepresent his position. Another poster found articles

from that era that show he was against busing for school desegregation -- not just Federal mandates.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287173788

[FloridaBlues]

104. It's difficult to anticipate questions that are sung your way.

Especially when you have 30 secs to respond

[EffieBlack]

117. A major presidential candidate whose record on civil rights in general and busing in particular

has raised questions and one of whose opponents actually participated in a busing program (which he apparently already knew because she's talked about it in his presence but any decent oppo research staffer could easily have found out), should have been more than prepared to answer this in 30 seconds or less.

[dlk]

105. Every Candidate Should Be Prepared to Answer Hard Questions Every Time

Running for president is a full-contact endeavor and any successful candidate can't afford to be blindsided by a hard question. If they are, then they are not ready for prime time. It's that simple. Does anyone truly believe that any successful candidate won't be peppered with hard questions from the Republicans and the conservative corporate media?

[George II]

109. My heart-felt honest response:

Yes, Biden was unprepared to answer.

But the issue of school busing has been virtually dead since the mid-80s when the last few busing programs were abandoned. That's about 35 years ago.

School busing was instituted in the early 1970s, and I don't think a single municipality or city ever considered it effective or successful, and it certainly didn't solve the problem of segregated schools.

At the time Biden felt it would be ineffective, and in fact so did Bernie Sanders a couple of years after Biden came out against it.

But here in 2019 and next year in 2020, it's a moot point because for the most part school busing doesn't exist anymore.

[delisen]

142. People in my family found it effective and credited the experience

with enabling them to have important personal relationships with individuals they otherwise would not have known as well as an ability to appreciate the humanity and cultural contributions of other groups than that which they had most identified with.

Only one generation of Americans were involved to busing to end or address segregation. I don't know of any studies don about the effects upon that generation.

[58Sunliner]

112. It was a fair question, but definitely planned-and I think it may backfire with this.

https://store.kamalaharris.org/that-little-girl-was-me-unisex-black/
The campaign apparently promoted the t-shirt on twitter last night.

[LovingA2andMI]

162. It's Her Truth....

She has a right to Say It, Say It Loud and Proud and Yes, FUNDRAISE off of it. Again, its HER TRUTH. Period.

Next....

[58Sunliner]

185. It is HER TRUTH-but I'm not sure that fund-raising off of being a victim is the best look.

Lots of people have been victimized by race, circumstances, sex, homophobia, etc... You don't see them selling a t-shirt from it because they are looking forward, and their appeal as candidates, is focused on broadening their base. By the way, caps don't make your point any more important.

[LovingA2andMI]

213. Actually, Yes She Can....

And she is. Too bad you have an issue with it but (The Caps Are Coming Again)....THAT'S YOUR ISSUE.

Have a wonderful afternoon.

[58Sunliner]

243. Sure she can-but is it a good idea?

You are free to have a divergent opinion. Does not make mine or yours wrong. Apparently THAT'S YOUR ISSUE.

[LovingA2andMI]

244. Ask Her....

She did.

And have a Lovely evening.

[EffieBlack]

226. It's a CAMPAIGN

[ValidateThis]

123. I have been a Biden supporter

followed by Kamala Harris and Liz Warren, ties for second. I’ve got a few “nevers” on the list but hopefull all but one will crash and burn soon.
Kamala was playing hardball last night. She needed to take Biden down to have a chance to move up, and out of the logjam behind him, so she took it like a professional politician. It wasn’t pretty to watch but it was effective and if a male politician had done it we’d be talking about how fierce a competitor he was.

My sig line still says Biden but Kamala Harris kicked his ass last night. And I want a candidate who can kick ass. We are up against a brutal Nazi. We haven’t got time for nice.

[Celerity]

126. fair points

[ValidateThis]

130. Thank you eom

[gordianot]

160. Rather than add anything your post says it all for me.

Complete agreement, I have the same dilemma. Biden owes a verbal apology even if his feelings are hurt. Empathy works.

[ValidateThis]

225. Thank you eom

[LexVegas]

127. She owned his ass. People need to get the fuck over it.

[bluewater]

129. K&R

[Tipperary]

146. Who the hell is angry?

I like both of them.

Not in the least angry at either one. Such drama, my goodness.

[EffieBlack]

151. You apparently haven't been reading the board ...

[tblue37]

159. Some reports have his campaign worker saying he was not willing to take debate prep

seriously enough.

[Boomer]

230. Biden is coasting

Campaigning is hard, taxing work and he's cutting corners.

[dawg day]

178. "Times have changed, fortunately, and I have learned a lot."

All of us over 50, who grew up in a very different time, should memorize that sentence and use it frequently.

We should not think we have to defend or continue to hold outdated positions. Yes, Don't Ask Don't Tell was a tiny but important step towards real acceptance. But am I going to argue that DADT is (or was then) a measure that insured equality? Of course not. Times have changed. I've learned a lot.

The need to defend outdated positions led Biden to say something profoundly stupid about "local rights" (states' rights), as if localities and school boards should be the one to determine how to achieve equality. He didn't mean to say that, I'm sure, and he probably doesn't believe it. But he was reminded of a position he held in the past that even he probably doesn't hold now, and instead of saying, "I've learned a lot", he started searching for reasons why he wasn't wrong, and came up with an AWFUL one.

I was struck by the relative humility of Pete B when confronted with his city's police problem now-- he actually was willing to say it's a mess and that he'd failed so far to achieve what he knows must be done. He tried not to get defensive. That's good.

We don't have to defend what is outdated. If the world has moved on from that, we can say so. We can shake our head and say, "I really have learned a lot since then."

Maybe that would come across as weak, as an admission that we were wrong. But that can't be worse than continuing to be wrong, can it?

[pnwmom]

240. YES! A simple recognition that he's changed and doesn't have the same beliefs

would go a long way. Much better than acting defensive.

[stonecutter357]

179. let's go Joe !

[Newland56]

183. If....

If Biden slips behind in the polls and feels the need to attack his opponents on their record to elevate himself at the expense of the party and the upcoming presidential election this is how I would do it
First I’d make a statement something like “I don’t think Kamala supports the prison industrial complex and the mass incarceration of young black men but...”

Then I’d ask “how many young black men were incarcerated in your time as a prosecuter and your time as a district attorney”

Then I’d ask the same for Latinos
I’d follow up with “are these numbers representative of the percentage of population in her state.”

I would have had my team prepped by researching every single case she prosecuted or oversaw and noted every single conviction that had been overturned or every inmate that had been exonerated after serving time in prison.

The minute she started defending herself I’d start calling out the names and retelling their stories.

I would create a narrative with the FACTS of her record that shows her actions ABSOLUTELY contributed to the mass incarceration of young minority citizens that bears little resemblance to the REALITY of her character.

I would do it on stage with a loud loud voice.

After all it is a fact she prosecuted or oversaw prosecutions of innocent black men and had them incarcerated.

Then I’d make a tee shirt with pictures of the victims and a quote that said “I was a public defender, unfortunately I didn’t always win against prosecutors like Kamala Harris”

[FiveGoodMen]

295. Hear, hear!

[Martin Eden]

184. The longer someone has held political office, the more opportunity there is to find fault

We were in a different place 40 years ago, and views change over the decades.

As I recall, some very prominent Democrats were very late to the table for full marriage equality (Barack Obama, for example). Was anyone on that stage the last two nights opposed to it?

Back in the 70's I was opposed to busing kids out of their home districts. I thought funds should be spent to raise standards at all schools.

[EffieBlack]

195. Then he should explain his evolution

And it would be good to know if he still believes that federal courts and federal government should not interfere in local civil rights matters - and, if so, does that also apply to reproductive rights, police brutality, gay marriage, etc.

[Newland56]

199. Or

Or it may be enough to look at his voting record or policy initiatives since that time and present an honest assessment of the totality of how he has represented and advocated for his constituents rather picking .01% of his votes (one of which he has already explained his evolution) and using that to present an in accurate narrative of Joe Biden being anti racial justice and anti choice.

[EffieBlack]

206. His anti-busing stance IS part of his voting record

It's a campaign. If he can't explain all aspects of his record, not just his votesit his policies, positions and statements, he's got more serious issues than a stumble during the first debate.

[Newland56]

210. I agree

I agree
I think that was the lowest point in his time in govt.
The worst aspect of his time was brought up and emphasized rather than any focus on his many many many high points.

Now if we are fair, the person that brought it up should have a very thorough review of every case she prosecuted against any person of color oversaw as a DA or attorney general and if the #s are disproportionate to the population ratio she should explain why she prosecuted minorities at a disproportionate rate contributed to the mass incarceration policies of minorities that are destroying our communities.

We should also pay special attention to any convictions that were overturned or people who were exonerated after serving time under that persons leadership.

In short, I believe that all of our candidates should be measured by their worst rather than their best (sarcasm)
And our candidates should actively seek out the worst thing possible in each person in the primary field and elevate those negatives as this is the most likely road to ensure success against trump. (Sarcasm again)

[EffieBlack]

219. I'm sure all of that will be done to Harris in the coming months

And I'm sure she'll be ready for it.

[Newland56]

233. I agree again

Yes, I’m sure it will happen
We may very well be finished as right out of the gate one of our candidates started off with the “they are worse” method rather than the “I am better” style.

This is why we have Donald trump today.

Maybe Biden will refrain and not climb down that ladder but if elevating the negative lifts you in the polls then I’m afraid we are finished.

If our party focuses on the negative and gives only a little shrug toward aspirations we as well as our country are finished.

From reading the commentary it appears the bump she got was directly a result of tearing down another candidate.

[EffieBlack]

234. I don't think her bump was from tearing anyone down

I think people were impressed with her knowledge, skill and fearlessness during the debate.

She didn't tear Biden down. She challenged him. Unfortunately for him, he responded badly. Had he been better prepared, he could have come out of the exchange looking really good and strong. So, any impression that he was somehow torn down was the result of his actions (or inaction), not hers.

[tymorial]

192. It's more than that. They dont want to feel uncomfortable.. especially on matters of race

Some would rather not acknowledge or have it discussed that the legacy of racism in this country is not just a right wing problem. Matters of race and racism has often taken a backseat to other issues. So too is it true that mistakes have been made in an effort to address these issues along the way. Some would rather we not discuss or acknowledge these items (airing dirty laundry). Some are accustomed to doing the speaking and would rather not be spoken to or at let alone questioned. Some are offended that their supported candidate was questioned at all, especially on this topic. It causes emotional discomfort. We cant have that! (Sarcasm)

I wont even go into the reality that there are still some who expect people of color to maintain a level of stoicism that would impress Seneca when it comes to racism and the legacy of slavery. Because you know emotional black men and women make people
Uncomfortable.

Sigh.

[Eliot Rosewater]

204. Agreed

[guillaumeb]

207. Recommended.

Biden, like Sanders, still seems unaware of the extent of the problem. And any politician who is unaware of the "states' rights" meme, and what it means, and what is is used to justify, is definitely unprepared for more than a debate.

[ecstatic]

212. I'm not sure we know yet if it was fatal or not

People are still absorbing what happened. On top of that, we have TV personalities putting (forcing?) their spin on it as well.

[Grasswire2]

216. All Joe had to do was say this:

"The first black president chose me for his vice president."

Too bad no one on his staff thought of that. Finis.

[EffieBlack]

227. That would have been a bad answer. I'm glad he didn't say that

[Grasswire2]

250. can you tell me why? So I can understand? nt

[tishaLA]

283. It's the "I have a black friend " answer

And people would have been dismissive. The better answer would be talking about what his proximity to Pres Obama taught him about race that he didn't know in the mid 70s

[Thekaspervote]

236. Yes !! Indeed

[SunSeeker]

282. Hillary basically gave that answer when she was bashed for her Iraq war vote.

She argued that if her judgment was so bad, Obama would not have made her his Secretary of State.

[JI7]

286. not really the same thing because that was about fitness for the job and foreign policy

experience.

if Biden had done what the person suggested it would have been more like the "my best friend is black" thing.

[SunSeeker]

287. Indeed. Some are already criticizing him for doing that.

CNN Panel Rips Biden for Defending States’ Rights, Using ‘I Have a Black Best Friend’ Argument By Name-Dropping Obama
https://www.mediaite.com/election-2020/cnn-panel-rips-biden-for-defending-states-rights-using-i-have-a-black-best-friend-argument-by-name-dropping-obama/amp/#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s

[bigbadR]

220. Kamal Harris SKILLFULL

I thought Harris's questioning of Vice President Biden was incredibly skillful, respectful and effective. She was able to show us Mr. Biden's, perhaps age related, lack of mental acuity. Mr. Biden shows himself to be "out of touch" with today's socio-political conditions. As much as I like Mr. Biden and respect the years of service he gave our country, it really is time to "pass the touch". If he is at all as genuinely patriotic as I think he is he will bow out.

[gldstwmn]

270. Pass the touch

is a typo right? Sorry I thought we could use a little levity.

[Mr.Bill]

221. Consider this:

What if Biden and Harris were actually working together last night? Because after all, who is everyone talking about today? Plenty of time to iron this out and both of then could wind up on the same ticket.

Just a thought.

[Liberty Belle]

228. Running against the racist Trump we need a candidate with no past history to apologize over

on racial issues. Biden was on the wrong side of this, and while I believe his views have changed, with so many other strong candidate why settle for one that would have some minorities unenthusiastic about supporting someone who once opposed mandatory busing in racist regions?

Dems need a candidate who will motivate minorities to show up and vote for a proven champion taking standards against racism consistently through their career.

[ecstatic]

254. So Mary Williamson (Or Yang) it is?

Because every other candidate has a past. That's why I hate the new social media way of doing things.

[nsd]

237. Her campaign had a picture ready for Twitter and a T-shirt ready to sell.

It was a planned hit. That's why people are upset. And that condescending line: "I'm sure you're not a racist ..."

Arghhhh!!!!

If Harris is the Democratic nominee, I'll vote for her, but otherwise I'm done with her.

[stillcool]

246. a picture? Her campaign had..

a picture of her as a young girl? My God, they must have had to really prepare in advance, to have a picture of her. And T-Shirts? The Campaign had T-Shirts. Good Lord. She called out Joe, and Joe didn't have a response ready to go. He should know that everything he's done throughout his long career is going to be examined. All he had to was own up. That was then, this is now, and times have changed..kind of.

[nsd]

252. Oh, yeah, you're totally right ...

... it was completely spontaneous. /s

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/28/kamala-harris-joe-biden-debate-1390383

[stillcool]

256. spontaeous?

You mean play it as it's dealt? Joe walked right into it. He could have owned up. Had he done that the picture and the t-shirt would still be part of the campaign though...don't you think? Harris is always prepared, smart, and spontaneous. Joe could turn this into a win in a heartbeat. But he'd have to admit being fallible.

[DesertRat]

238. k&r

[Hekate]

245. I'm not angry, but I really winced at the hurt on his face.He was NOT prepared & he should have been

At least I read it as hurt: like, how could you misunderstand my intentions? I'm for Kamala, but have been a strong Biden defender here at DU, as I find most of the complaints against him here (up to this point anyway) to be slanted and evidently originating from just a few people who never bother saying why they support their own putative candidate, only that they despise Biden and want him knocked out of the running.

I think he is a good man and does not deserve to have his record twisted by Democrats on a Democratic discussion board. He has a long record of trying to do the right thing -- sometimes failing, not always being right, but on the whole getting it right. He's one of ours.

However, he's going to have to up his game and snap into 2019 soon when it comes to running a campaign. He can't assume that anyone younger than 35 or 40 knows the good parts of his record. Kamala Harris intends to win, and prosecuted her case.

[Cha]

260. Mahalo, Hekate.. you are just the best..

And, a brilliant advocate for Kamala!

[Hekate]

264. Aw, thanks

[Cha]

266. You are..

so sweet.. you make me feel hopeful.

[UniteFightBack]

249. I'm disappointed in Harris really. I mean I understand it's politics and I'll always like her

but this whole line of attack is just wrong. So Joe Biden coddled the reputation of segregationists? Really? I'd like to see where that occurred. Making it seem like he was in love with these segregationist guys, I mean what the fuck here. I understand she is lacking in black support so she needed to do something but I don't like it.

I'm just tired of this everybody be perfect routine and now we demand apologies over everything from everybody. We are in a battle with a corrupt party who will do ANYTHING and here we are opening up bullshit lines of attack on each other. Well not everybody is doing it..but now Kamala has joined the list and I'm not happy about it because like she says....we are better than this. There is plenty to attack with the pukes.

I'm also disgusted with all the people TWISTING Joe Biden's words to make them fit into very ugly things.

Just note when Kamala or Warren or whoever fucks up...I'll tell you one thing I will not be jumping on the bandwagon to tear them down because all our candidates are great no matter what their poll numbers.

[cwydro]

258. Both Harris and Biden are doing well.

Nonsense on CNN or here (which usually mirrors CNN) means nothing.

Haters of either are really going to have to up their game.

[mia]

259. This moment brought both Biden and Harris down for me. n/t

[gldstwmn]

263. This is only the tip of the iceberg.

[defacto7]

273. Let's say you are correct. Wouldn't that mean it was ultimately a bad choice

by Harris to make the comment? You said, "people wouldn't be accusing Harris of "kneecapping" him or attacking her for "mischaracterizing" his record..." So by choosing to confront Biden in such a way, you are blaming Biden for not giving an answer that would exonerate himself thereby validating her question at the cost of her failure to corner him. I think that's a bit much. Instead, Biden choked and Harris is being accused of kneecapping. Did Harris want him to fail or prevail? Either way the move was Harris' and she loses both ways.

[JohnnyRingo]

275. I think it's because she's abrasive.

That's a great quality for a prosecutor, but she's not running for Attorney General. She's tough as nails and mixes it up with the best of them. I fondly recall when she was grilling Jeff Sessions and he stuttered "you're making me nervous", Such laser focused vitriolic demeanor is ideal in her old job, but she's now in the country's biggest likability contest and she's playing like she has nothing to lose.

I have a few friends (both genders) who just want her to go away. She just rubs them the wrong way, and all her positions on the issues won't overcome that in this league. I'm trying to keep an open mind, but I'm starting to lean that way myself.

[EffieBlack]

280. Abrasive?

[tishaLA]

285. Yes, another "abrasive," woman

Who rubs people the wrong way.

Naturally.

[JohnnyRingo]

294. Yes, abrasive.

She reminds me of Chris Christie, another prosecutor. Ironically, he chided her for the same thing a couple nights ago, saying "that's the prosecutor in her", and we see how far that carried Christie in 2016. It's clear that a lot of people don't like either of them. If Kamala Harris wants to be president, she has to turn that around.

Abrasive is absolutely not a gender specific trait. It also doesn't win people over.

[SunSeeker]

288. Oh God, not this again.

[fallrey]

277. Warren supporter really appreciating Harris

I remember when all federal enforcement of any civil rights legislation was countered with the argument that it should be a matter for local control/state's rights. So when Biden referred to local control, that raised a red flag for me. Of course I remember that busing itself became controversial for reasons other than civil rights issues. But they weren't really arguing about busing. The real issue was how much sympathy Biden had for segregationists and bigots who held back minorities in this country in a significant way, and what that might mean for his ability to understand and lead on civil rights and minority issues today. Biden damaged himself by offering the defense of busing that was the same defense made by those who wanted no part of civil rights for blacks or other minorities. This was an outrageous statement to make in the context of that discussion and I suspect he will have a hard time overcoming having made this defense. By doing this he never addressed the real question there: can you be responsive in a real way to real issues now? Defending his reasoning then, and with the worst possible defense, was a problem of his own making.

As far as Kamala Harris' ability to grab the stage and dominate her opponent in the debate, all I have to say is, Wow! That was quite a move. She has now put herself in the race as one of the frontrunners. For anyone who thinks she is too aggressive, too prosecutorial, too angry, I can only say--wake up! This isn't the 1950s. Women can be aggressive and it can be a good thing. I was not sure of her but that was a very skillful and interesting interaction and my esteem for her is much higher now.

I am almost equal now in my support of either Warren or Harris as a result of that debate, and what I knew prior as well.

I don't support Joe Biden. Sorry, not good enough for the moment. We have a lot of business to attend to after Trump is defeated and we need someone who can move us forward.

[SunSeeker]

281. K & R

[videohead5]

289. But what is the point?

Either you believe Biden has some deep seated racism or he does not.

[StarfishSaver]

293. You think those are the only two choices?

[Lytex59]

290. It was a setup

Kamala Harris carefully planned and rehearsed her confrontation with Joe Biden. Given his lifelong support of civil rights, it was unwarranted. If you have to demean a rival to put yourself forward, you will not get my vote. The person who uses it ad nauseum is Donald Trump. Our politics must be better than his.

[FiveGoodMen]

296. Very much so

[Texin]

292. The thing that troubles me most about this is Biden's lack of preparedness to answer it.

What are his campaign staff doing? Why was he not properly debate prepped by his manager(s)? He's had over two years to consider/anticipate running this campaign. He looked flat-footed. He knows his record better than anyone. Better than his managers and staff. He KNOWS the issues he once supported and the people he was colleagues with back in the day when the Democratic party was still very much a party of white, southern "good ol' boys." That doesn't mean that Biden is or ever was one of them, just that he had to get along with his senate colleagues in order to advance legislation.