On the Busing Controversy

[MineralMan]

Some DUers, like myself, are geezers who actually remember the busing controversy. Others not so much.

Here's the point of opposition to it: The Department of Education was mandating busing nationally. Schools are local things, not even run by the states, but by local school boards.

Busing was a general method of equalizing racial balance in schools in this country. It was opposed by both black and white people in many places. Why? Because it was not seen as a particularly good solution for racial imbalance in the schools in a lot of cities. When busing was first implemented in many places, it was done clumsily and without much consideration to the wishes of parents.

Kids were bused in both directions for long distances and long bus rides. Some students were bused to a school far from their homes, when they could have been sent to an imbalanced school closer than that. In some cases, bus rides of well over an hour each way were the result, even though racial balance could have been established with much shorter bus rides.

It took a long time for all that to settle out and for the best solutions to be discovered for racial balancing. And that was in places where it wasn't so difficult to handle. In some places, where segregation was rife, new racial inequities were deliberately created out of spite.

It wasn't really opposition to promoting racial balance in schools. It was opposition to a federal agency dictating how it would be done and bypassing local control of the situation. That was absolutely needed in some cases, but was applied nationwide, even when better solutions were readily available.

So, many people, including Joe Biden, it seems, were opposed to that centralized solution to local problems.

Where I live, in St. Paul, MN, parents can now send their children to any school in the city, and a fleet of buses travels all over the city moving children to the schools their parents select. There are magnet schools of all sorts everywhere in the city. Other parents opt to send their children to nearby schools. Now, there are broad choices available. It's not a perfect system, but there are no perfect systems. We have neighborhoods that are primarily lived in by one racial group, but also many neighborhoods that are about as diverse as you could imagine, like the one I live in. Every morning on my little residential street, a couple of dozen buses pass my house, all taking children to the schools their parents have chosen.

Busing didn't work that way. In many places, it didn't work at all. It was unpopular on a broad basis and with people of all races.

So, Biden opposed that centralized solution, for those reasons. Today, other solutions work better than the original busing did. Maybe he was right, in terms of most places. I don't know.

[Hoyt]

1. Busing wasn't the issue, it was the means to an end -- ending segregated schools and

cruddy Black schools that weren't equal. If it weren't for segregated and unequal schools, there would have been no need for busing.


Biden should have said, "I would not have been reelected in 1978 had I supported busing. But, I did demand equal schools, boundaries to be drawn to ensure desegregation and quality schools for all, etc." [The latter sentence, assumes he did.]

And he darn sure shouldn't have gotten into states' rights type stuff. Where I grew up -- deep south -- the people who used states' rights to keep Black schools cruddy, and thwart desegregation, usually stood in front of a confederate flag and/or screaming white wingers.

With that said, Biden has done a lot of good and he should have added a few quick examples.

In any event, when my primary comes in March, I'll vote for Biden if it still looks like he has best chance to beat trump. I'm not sure of that at this point.

[MineralMan]

5. It was the issue raised last night at the debate.

It was a huge issue at the time, as well. I remember it well.

In the small California town I grew up in, I was in the first class that ended the segregation of Hispanic and Anglo kids. In 1951, I attended first grade in a school that had been, up to that time, only attended by Hispanic students. It was located in what was called "Mexican Town" in that town of 4500 people.

I knew nothing about all that, though. I sat down in a classroom where about half the kids spoke Spanish. The town was about 1/3 Hispanic. We were the first Anglo kids to ever attend that school. It was great. I learned Spanish from my fellow students in the schoolyard, and they learned English in the classroom.

I went to school with the same kids all the way through High School. I never even realized that an issue existed. But there was no busing. Everyone walked to whatever school they attended. It was a small town.

[Hoyt]

6. This is what I remember when it came to busing as a means to end segregation and

crappy Black schools:

[MineralMan]

7. Yes. In some places, that was exactly the situation.

In other places, the problem was more subtle.

[Demsrule86]

33. That is the 50's...

[C_U_L8R]

2. I was a kid then

and I remember everyone on all sides hating it.

[peggysue2]

18. That's my memory as well

It was a well-intentioned program with unintended consequences. And, ultimately, it failed to substantially correct the long-standing problem of school segregation. But it was a start. So, I guess there's that.

People forget or have no living memory that a substantial number of AA and white families criticized the program vociferously, very often because of the long, long bus rides their kids were forced to make. There was certainly racism involved in the clamor but the program itself was an unintended mess.

Back in the day!

[C_U_L8R]

20. Right. That's why last night's kerfuffle surprised me too.

All the best intentions but an all-around flawed solution.

[Mme. Defarge]

3. Merci!

Thank you for the refresher!

As for Joe’s overall performance last night, I thought it was strong. Kamala’s question felt contrived, like a planned “gotcha” moment. I was not favorably impressed. Au contraire...

[Thekaspervote]

26. +1000

[bluewater]

4. "It wasn't really opposition to promoting racial balance in schools"

Not a good look.

It "really" most certainly was in large parts of the country.

Biden gave a States Rights argument to try to defend himself YESTERDAY.

For god's sake it's 2019.

Aren't we, as Democrats, saying a States Rights argument to limit a woman's reproductive rights is WRONG?

Are we all supposed to become hypocritical now to defend Biden?

Count me out.

[emulatorloo]

11. Did Biden argue for states rights to women's reproductive rights? Absolutely not

and that’s a terrible analogy.

The question I have from that exchange is does Senator Harris intend to campaign on bringing back busing?

That will be an interesting development. MM’s history above is accurate, there were many unintended consequences in the past implementation. Arguments are going to have to be made to how we get busing done right.

[Demsrule86]

36. Anyone who runs on busing is going lose badly ...it was a bad idea 50 years ago...it can't be done

right...here in Ohio parents choose their kids school...and are not limited by geography.

[Thekaspervote]

27. You posted this exact response earlier and it wasn't well received then either..

[bluewater]

34. This one, with the 11 DUrecs?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287175591

Actually, that was an expanded post based on this one.

Seemed well enough received to me, getting 11 DUrecs, for such a short post in the morning.

[Demsrule86]

37. Another hit piece...but in a few days when polls come out and the fifty year set up fails...I guess

some will have a sad...I wonder how much was made on the t shirts ordered for the er not planned attack on Biden.

[bluewater]

41. We need to wait about 10 days to see post debate polls.

[Demsrule86]

45. We will know is a few days...and I think busing will not be what some hope for.

[bluewater]

46. Monday's and Tuesday Polls will not be post debate.

But by the end of next week, the first post debate polls should start becoming available.

[delisen]

8. Surprised at how "white" Minnesota was in 2010 census

I think the census listed only about 281,000 black or African American out of a population of about 5 million.

I understand that with a growth in "minority" and immigrant population over the past decade there has been a rise in what reports of overt racism, particularly in regard to the Somali population.

Is this true of St. Paul?

[MineralMan]

9. St. Paul has a higher black population, percentage-wise.

We also have a large Hmong population, the largest in the US. Our Somali and other African immigrant population is high, proportionally. We have many other minority groups living in the city, primarily due to lower housing costs than Minneapolis. There are racial prejudice issues in St. Paul, but not as much as you might think.

From Wikipedia:

As of the census[2] of 2010, there were 285,068 people, 111,001 households, and 59,689 families residing in the city. The population density was 5,484.2 inhabitants per square mile (2,117.5/km2). There were 120,795 housing units at an average density of 2,323.9 per square mile (897.3/km2). The racial makeup of the city was 60.1% white, 15.7% African American, 1.1% Native American, 15.0% Asian, 0.1% Pacific Islander, 3.9% from other races, and 4.2% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino people of any race were 9.6% of the population.

Our racial makeup doesn't resemble that of greater Minnesota much. Outside of Minneapolis and St. Paul, Minnesota is a white state, primarily. Close-in suburbs are more diverse, but the farther away from the core of the metro, the white population is dominant.

[delisen]

10. Thanks for responding. Seems nicely diverse.

[MineralMan]

12. Yes. It is a diverse city. I live in a residential neighborhood

in the northeastern corner of St. Paul. It's a heavily Hmong neighborhood, bordering on a neighborhood that is predominantly black. Built out in the late 40s and 50s, it was a moderately-priced neighborhood when my wife and I moved here in 2004, and remains so, compared to the rest of the city. Right now, in the Hmong-heavy part of the neighborhood, and on the block where I live, young Hmong families are the dominant ethnic group. In many ways, it reminds me of the small California town where I grew up, with children of all ages out in the street when school is not in session, playing and riding bikes. There's a little lake about half a mile away, so kids with fishing poles are a common sight.

It's a working class neighborhood with both parents typically working during the day. My wife and I walk our two dogs in the neighborhood daily, and have made many friends among the children, who often come out and pet the dogs. I've learned enough Hmong to be polite to the grandmothers and older men who often live with those young families. In previous years, I have canvassed the entire neighborhood, since it's all pretty much in my precinct. I was the DFL party chair for that precinct from 2004 through the last election. I've given up that job, since my arthritic hips don't allow me to do street canvassing any longer. So, I've met many of the residents here, both in the Hmong community and the nearby AA community over the years. White homeowners make up about 40% of the overall neighborhood, but that percentage is dropping as older homeowners opt for different housing options.

[Demsrule86]

39. MM you are a great guy and very interesting...love your posts.

[MineralMan]

48. You're too kind.

[hlthe2b]

13. It was controversial despite the seeming assumption today that it was not.

I was in the deep South, my parents being among those American who'd begun to transfer for their jobs every few years to better their economic options. I was in several Deep Southern states from 2nd grade intermittently through high school. I experienced long-distance busing ripped from friends I'd just managed to make, but I was already accustomed to making new ones and my sister and I had attended schools with considerable racial, ethnic and national diversity since pre-school. So, I feel as though we were perfectly suited for busing, even though we didn't like all that travel and lost after-school time. I'm quite familiar with the "white flight" phenomenon. Thankfully, my parents were tolerant, progressive people beyond their time and were accustomed to living among all kinds of people during their past international work. They passed those values to us as well.

I contrast that with the experience of African American families whose children were bused sometimes more than an hour each way with tremendous anxiety as to what awaited them at these unfamiliar locales and from people who were not always fully welcoming. I made some of my best friends among these transferring students during that period. They followed me through high school and in some cases beyond. But, it was not always pleasant for them or for others. Change is scary.

I heard a piece on NPR a few years ago about the problems of communities re-segregating. It did an in-depth look at the success and failures (and the history) of forced busing and desegregation. It was interesting and revealing. Since then I've read a lot--including the very mixed attitudes of black civil rights leaders on whether or not forced busing was the best approach. I think it worked well in some settings and miserably in others. Not all who believed that local control should determine the best course for desegregating schools were racists or segregationists. Some really believed that a one size fit all approach was not the best one. It was complicated. It was an intense period, filled both with good intentions and those few who fought every effort at every turn.

It is something we should talk about. But, I can not be quiet when some suggest the answers were so clear. Suggesting that those who did not immediately and automatically favor Federally forced busing were malign for thinking so is too simplistic, IMO at least in some cases. I realize that the period currently under discussion was years after Brown v Board of Education and that more people had come to realize that--short of Federally forced busing, some locales would never change. That's fair. I'm just saying it was not so obvious early on and anger was flowing from all sides. It wasn't "cut and dry"...

Every time period has its context. It is hard for those who did not experience it in real time to appreciate that. As a result we see history through blinders. We need to fight that, IMO.

[MineralMan]

15. Yes, the context of the time is important, but is ignored

by most people these days. It was decades ago, so most people don't have clear memories of the details any longer.

Some were just young children or not even born at that time.

Joe Biden explained all this at length today in a speech at the Rainbow Push Coalition convention, which MSNBC carried.

[hlthe2b]

17. Yes and I thought it was great. Then I heard that Kamala had said "she'd drop it if he'd apologize"

and the press is now on that "demand an apology" bandwagon... Next apologies/more apologies for Anita Hill and about a dozen other "offenses" in his many decades-long career. And those apologies already issued have to be revisited because they were apparently not "adequate"

I like Kamala, I really do... But this is becoming really disturbing to me.

[peggysue2]

19. I agree

Kamala Harris is second on my list but demanding an apology tour from Joe Biden is a step too far. She knows the man is not a racist; he has an entire lifetime in politics to back that up. This is simply political hardball and the demand indicates she's not so certain this is a winning hand in the long-term.

We should be asking: who benefits long-term if the minority vote is split? It won't be Harris or Booker or Biden.

Trump.

[marylandblue]

24. He should have explained it succintly last night, then turned to his plans

for funding Title I schools.

I have nothing against Biden, but to succeed against Trump, you have to think fast.

[emmaverybo]

30. I don't think Trump will hit him in this or any other issue by exposing his pain in such an

unexpected and dramatic way as to stun him. Trump is incapable of political theatre and would not
evoke empathy. Harris as a woman bringing the story of “that little girl” acted out beat by beat
to perfection?

No.

[marylandblue]

49. Trump is incapable of political theater? Are you kidding?

That's all he knows how to do!

[emmaverybo]

53. Crude style. Nicknames, mugging, lies. She would never pull this "little girl" sad with

Trump. He would be immune to it.

[marylandblue]

54. That's right she won't. She'll act more like a prosecutor.

Better, but may not be enough. He seems to run rings around prosecutors.

[MichMan]

14. How come we don't hear anyone suggesting busing be used again?

Like it was 40 yrs ago. Seems like there are a lot of people that are nostalgic for it.

I was forced to ride a bus 45 minutes each way in Junior High in a court ordered cross district busing process in an urban district. The week before it was going to be implemented, the KKK blew up 10 buses in the bus yard with explosives. The district consolidated each Junior High into one grade level. I think 2 were for 7th, 2 for 8th, and 2 for 9th grades.

Seemed like a total waste of time and resources driving all over the city as the High Schools were already 50 % black and white. I'm sure it cost the district a lot of $$$ that could have been used for something better.

Do those who criticize Biden for opposing it back then, favor it being brought back again?

[MineralMan]

16. Good question. But one which will not be addressed, I think.

It is enough for some people that the issue has been raised, and that they think Biden came off badly with his answer. Well, he has addressed it in more detail today in remarks at the Rainbow Push Coalition. Maybe those people will listen to what he said.

Thanks for relating your story about forced busing. It's good to remind people that it wasn't always a great solution for the problem, and that it caused great upheaval in many people's lives.

[peggysue2]

21. Great response, MichMan

Those who truly remember the busing years know that there's not much to be nostalgic over. It was a dismal failure in many places across the US.

Well-intentioned but with tons of unintended consequences.

[jberryhill]

32. What are you talking about?

The transportation pattern that was established as a result of Evans v. Buchanan in Joe Biden's Delaware remains largely the same.

[Blue_true]

52. In my county, post mandated bus rides were shorter.

One of the funny things about the south, Whites and Blacks have been neighbor's, even during Jim Crowe. Their neighborhoods abutted often, even intermixed in some cases. So bus rides were longer to support segregation.

I am sorry that northerners chose flight to completely get away from the other race, even with their tendency to be dumbasses, southerners didn't do that. Now segregation by wealth was an issue, rich Whites chose to live among rich Whites and away from the poor of any race.

[BlueWI]

22. Today's solutions work better?

How well staffed and funded are Edina's schools vs. East St. Paul? And, it's disproportionately POC and poor children that have to choose between neighborhood schools of varying quality and voluntary busing (often with parental transportation) to stronger schools in more affluent neighborhoods, which may or may not have a level of caring and competence to support these children.

School segregation is at a high point since the 1980s, last time I saw data.

This is not to say that mandatory busing should come back, and people opposed it for a variety of reasons when it was being applied. IMO, the difference today is that even on the liberal side, there is limited will to discuss the continuing disparities and seek real solutions. Cory Booker stood out in the debates as one candidate who has deep caring about these issues.

I actually think there are plenty of fossils like myself on DU who remember this, or people like me who had the joy of being some of the first to attend newly integrated schools. It's a complex story.

[MineralMan]

23. Hard to say, really.

There are many problems. But, Edina and the East side of St. Paul are not even the same city, so there's no connection between the two. I favor a flat statewide standard for school funding on a per student basis. Imagine the likelihood of that happening, but that's what i want.

Busing did not work, so other strategies have been tried, which also work poorly. I don't have the answer. And then, there are cultural and economic family issues. There are also language issues in our schools. It is a societal problem of longstanding.

What to do? I don't know. It's a more complex problem than people realize. Do you know?

[BlueWI]

50. Greater focus, more development for educators,

making education a specific national and local priority, research-informed changes in strategy, funding equalization as you suggest. It definitely is an issue with layers and options, so flexibility and focus are the best tools. IMO.

[wyldwolf]

25. Is anyone really surprised the most unpragmatic group in our coalition would react this way?

The core of their argument is 'you had a nuanced approach to a largely ineffective and unpopular civil rights measure that even black people didn't care for? YOU A RACIST!!!"

[emmaverybo]

28. Excellent and informative post about a debate, held then by, as you point out, many black parents

as well as white progressives, about an issue obviously still very present for people today.

[guillaumeb]

29. Busing was a huge issue in Chicago.

And racially based. There were riots over busing in Chicago, and they were motivated by the fact that many whites were violently opposed to integrated schools and neighborhoods.

[jberryhill]

31. Which has nothing to do with what Biden was all about

Biden was facing re-election in 1978.

Evans v. Buchanan - the case addressing structural de facto segregation in the Delaware school system, had been in various stages of litigation and attempted resolution since 1971.

That was about to change in 1978.

Majority white opinion in Delaware's most populous of its three counties, New Castle County, was opposed to "busing" not on any such grounds as you mentioned, but frankly because they didn't want their kids going to school with African American kids.

You may be old, but I was in school, in Delaware, at the relevant time, and was keenly aware of Joe Biden trying to ride the fence on this one and be all things to all people, so that he could squeak by (which he did) in the next election by persuading everyone he was "kind of" on their side.

Joe Biden is an artful politician, but you completely fail to recognize that he was a Senator from Delaware, and that this had a particular context and meaning in relation to desegregation in 1978.


"Here's the point of opposition to it: The Department of Education was mandating busing nationally."

The Department of Education did not exist at the time, and that's not what was happening in Delaware. In Delaware, busing was being mandated by the Third Circuit Court of Appeals and the US District Court for the District of Delaware. Biden's electoral strategy was to pretend that he had any sort of "solution" for white people who didn't understand how government works.

Sorry, but there is a specific historical context relevant to Joe Biden here, which "being old" in some other part of the country is simply not relevant.

This had jack to do with the Department of Health, Education and Welfare:

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/435/832/1424669/

US District Court for the District of Delaware - 435 F. Supp. 832 (D. Del. 1977) August 5, 1977

[Metatron]

38. Good post n/t

[Demsrule86]

42. Really...I am sure you a school kid were poliitcally aware of Joe Biden...a 50 year old failed

program...don't care and I would bet no one else except those who don't like Biden will care.

[jberryhill]

44. Um, yes

It's a small state. And when one of your parents is also engaged in politics as the head of a local environmental group, it's pretty normal to know quite a bit about what's going on. The desegregation issue was huge, and I was appalled to learn that many of the people I grew up and went to school with were fundamentally against allowing African American kids in the schools. It was not some minor thing here, and we still have a countywide rotation that each district uses to determine who goes to which schools for which years.

When you grow up not more than three miles away from where your state senator's wife was killed in an auto accident, you kind of hear about it pretty frequently.

I guess another thing you don't realize about old people was that we grew up with the continuing war in Vietnam to which other kids and their siblings were occasionally called up to go, and so there was probably more attention paid to politics by kids and tweens at that time. Politics mattered in a way that it really doesn't now I suppose.

[seaglass]

55. Thanks for the context. I remember how ugly it got in Boston. Busing was required by MA court

order and MA. Dept. of Education, a local not federal issue to desegregate schools, especially in Boston. The conflict on this was a very shameful chapter in the history of my state.

[jberryhill]

56. I'm not sure this chapter is adequately taught

It seems that there are plenty of younger people who do not really understand how strongly many white people simply did not want their kids going to school with black kids. The “busing” aspect was not really what the passion was about.

[emmaverybo]

35. I thank you for your thoughtful post and everyone who has been so articulate and yet personal and

brave in looking at busing as an issue and an experience.

[loyalsister]

40. When busing is discussed

I am reminded of one of my earliest encounters of truly vile, malicious bigotry. My parents were friends with an elderly couple whose granddaughter moved in with them so she could attend school in my school district. During a barbeque, I asked her mom why. She said they wanted to keep their daughter from having to go to school with n--s. What was worse, is when I talked with my mom about it later I got a version of stereotypes on safety and justification for the fear. I really hated hearing my mom defend that horrible woman because it was clear to me that racial hostility was something she thought should be tolerated. My experiences with classmates contradicted her assumptions and I was very disturbed. That is exactly what I heard from Biden, too.

[qazplm135]

43. of course the problem is

he failed to remotely make that argument last night. He ended up making a state's rights argument.
He was not quick on his feet...on an issue he SHOULD have known was coming and SHOULD have been prepared for.

He clearly was not the latter.
That's on him, and if continues with that kind of performance, he's not going to be the front-runner for too long.

[Blue_true]

51. I was raised in the south where opposition to busing was mostly racial.

The fact is in my county, Black and White living areas abutted and even intermixed a lot. Where my parents home is the mix was White/Black/White/Black/White, all within a 2.5 mile distance. Yet under segregation, some students were bused 15 miles past a Black or White school.

Your personal observations are your own, but my experience is that integration of schools and mandated busing resulted in net shorter bus rides for kids.