Sanders will not be the Democratic nominee. He looked out

So did Warren:

her being a strong general election candidate in MI, WI, PA, AZ. BTW, I do appreciate Sander's passion and energy.

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Time for all to join the progressive revolution!!

but this is all about who can win enough states to beat trump. Biden can win enough states to beat trump, No one seems to talk about that. It's not about who I like and who you like. It's who can beat trump.

I don't think he will generate enthusiasm or passion.

I don't mean this in a debating way (I know what the polls say - and you obviously like/support/believe in him).

I'm just stating that I think if he gets the nod, my guess is that we'll limp our way to the election and not win.

I suppose we'll see - perhaps you are right. We can't know until this all plays out.

Corrupt Trump. Rural America will understand what’s happening to them is based in corruption by the financial elites. She can reach them.

I mean yes, Biden has s a shot against Trump. But so does Sanders. So does Warren in many of the polls.

The argument for Biden keeps coming down to Biden will win because Biden can win.

I don't' find that a particularly compelling argument.

In part, because it makes Biden just one bad primary or caucus away from irrelevancy.

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Time for all to join the progressive revolution!!

I'm supporting who can beat trump.

As a percentage, fewer of his current support will back the nominee this time than last time. It's simply a given considering how much of his support from last time found a better candidate to back this time. He has surrounded himself with people like Sirota, Turner, and Gray. Writing is on the wall with when it comes to his tactics this time around. He isn't going for a broader group. We are all good with respect to that.

Here is what we need to know. There are much better people and groups to go after than Stein voters. Much better. People need to quit worrying about where Sanders voters will go. No one owns them. Just as no one owns me when it comes to the general.

He was the most clear spoken, lucid, and consistent of anyone on the stage. I have no idea what you mean by "looked out of place." I still blame him at least in part for what happened in 2016 and so he will not get my primary vote. But I cannot say I am not impressed by his performance.

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Time for all to join the progressive revolution!!

After watching him last night, I became irritated with his yelling and waving his arms around. Looked like crabby old guy yelling at kids on his lawn.

Sorry. but that's straight from FSB's (Russian disinfo) 2016 playbook.

The Russians were behind the effort to divide the Democratic factions.

Here's How Many Bernie Sanders Supporters Ultimately Voted For Trump


https://www.democraticunderground.com/128775104

From the Newsweek link:

While much was made of the so-called Bernie-or-bust phenomenon, the number of Sanders supporters who crossed party lines to vote for Trump in 2016 may not be that unusual. A 2010 study in Public Opinion Quarterly found that in the 2008 election 25 percent of those who voted for Clinton in the Democratic primary ended up voting for Republican John McCain, rather than Barack Obama, in the general election.

So it would seem Sanders supporters were more loyal to the Democratic nominee than Clinton supporters were in 2008.

of BS fans voting for the racist fuckhead trump.

BS voters we're fairly typical of every other election in supporting the Democratic candidate. What was atypical was the amount of Democratic voters who switched to McCain.

Since you mentioned racism, one has to wonder why 25% of Clinton voters couldn't bring themselves to vote for Barack Obama in the general election. Obama and Clinton had nearly identical platforms. But there was one glaring difference between the two. Can you guess what that is?

While we're on the topic of race, why did Trump get an even higher percentage of the Latino vote than Obama did? Especially after considering Trump called them murderers and rapists. Why aren't we blaming Latinos for Trump's win?

That poll was an outlier and it was wrong. A poll taken a couple years later is hardly the best way to get good data.

The exit polls from 2008 would be a better way of determining what the percentage was. My guess is that it was about 13 to 15 percent.

Many Bernie voters either didn't vote or voted third party. And that was a direct consequence of Bernie running against her like he was running against Joe Liberman.

I assume that you meant to say that Trump did better than Romney, not Trump did better than Obama. And the answer is simple: he didn't. You are referring to the initial exit polls from election night. Those figures were later debunked. Clinton outperformed Obama among Latino voters.

I too think the 25% is too high and have seen numbers that are not quite so severe but still show Bernie supporters being more loyal to the Democratic nominee than Clinton supporters were in 2008.

Sanders supporters: 12 % Sanders supporters voted for Trump over Clinton. Compare that with 2008 when 17 % of Clinton supporters voted for McCain over Obama.


Yes, I meant Trump did better than Romney. I compared CNN exit polls from 2012 and 2016 elections. Clinton lost ground across multiple demographics. 28% of Latino voters support Trump. He actually got more support from Latino voters than Obama did in 2012.

Or are the CNN exit polls ones that has been debunked?

Here is a better way of understanding how Trump and Hillary did among Latino voters.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-pedraza-latino-vote-20170111-story.html

You again said "He actually got more support from Latino voters than Obama did in 2012." And again...I think you meant to say Romney.

So lets use the numbers at your link. 16% of Latinos in California and 18% nationally decided to go with the guy that tweeted "the overwhelming amount of violent crime in our major cities is committed by blacks and hispanics", rather than vote for Hillary Clinton.

This guy. 16-18% thought this guy was a better choice than Hillary:

She improved the Democrats margin.

It isn't reasonable to expect his numbers to have dropped to zero. Some people will always find reasons to excuse or dismiss his racism, even if they are minorities.

And who exactly would have done better than HRC among Latinos? Bernie Sanders? The whole reason she won the nomination is because she totally crushed him among minority voters. Maybe that will change in this election, but in 2016 he struggled with these groups.

Were Sanders voters a special case or not?

If the number of his supporters that switched was actually less, as the evidence suggests, then it' s intellectually dishonest to blame them.

I think it's also important to remember the cross over appeal Sanders had in 2016. Should we really assume all of those voters were Democrats who would have voted Democrat under any other circumstances?

Were either Republicans who voted for Bernie in later primaries once the Republican nomination had been sealed in order to sow disorder or people who would never have voted for Hillary regardless of whether Bernie ran. All of the Bernie supporters I knew either voted for Hillary in the general or voted third party - none of them voted for Trump.

Hillary was not seen the same way before Bernie and Comey got done with her.

Comey completely redefined her as a public servant and as a human being. She wasn't facing corruption allegations until he came along.

And Bernie ran against her like he was running against Joe Lieberman. She wasn't seen as significantly different than Obama, Biden and Kerry until Bernie painted her that way.

HRC was the most popular politician in America for years when she was Secretary of State. She finished up with 69 percent job approval, 66 percent personal favorability. I am pretty sure that the Hillary haters on the left were not so filled with animosity towards her until she ran for president and got swift boated.

Clinton has been a polarizing figure since she was the first lady. The right didn't' need Sanders to come along to have attacks ready for her. We can argue which ones were crap and which ones were valid but Trump didn't need Sanders to have them. And from where I stood. Sanders attacked the system Clinton was protecting rather than Clinton herself.

And it's a primary. I sure don't' see many holding punches when it comes to attacking Sanders. Did Sanders attack Clinton worse then Clinton attacked Obama in the 2008 primary? (remember, more Clinton Supporters voted for McCain then Sanders supporters who went for trump)

But seriously, people need to stop acting as is people seriously disliking Clinton just appeared from nowhere one day.



Obama beat Clinton. So thinking some people saw a difference there

Kerry lost. So maybe not the best comparison you could have done.

the 2016 election was the largest game of Would You Rather" ever played. Sanders had nothing to do with that.

The point is that Clinton was not someone who could just never win a large percentage of the vote, unlike other Democrats, as the current story claims.

Just because Obama narrowly outdistanced Clinton that doesn't mean that people saw her as the second coming of Joe Lieberman. Kerry may have lost the 2004 race, but no significant percentage of the Democratic party saw him as being like Joe Lieberman. Hillary was seen that way by a lot of people after Bernie got done with her. But she had never been seen as being like Lieberman until she ran against Bernie for president.

Clinton has been polarizing since the 90s. Nothing changed that. Just brushing that off as if an entire decade didn't' happen is ust.. weird.

.

Since you never clarify what you mean by"Second coming of Joe Libermann" I can't really either way.

But if you mean Clinton was seen as the poster child for the establishment when there had been over a decade of anti establishment sentiment... yeah. She was. That is just how that was and still is. and no ever needed Sanders to say this.

This seriously bugs me. We keep ignoring history and then wonder why we lose to guys like Trump and bush

Hillary had a career of her own after her time as first lady. And she got many voters who didn't approve of a politically active first lady to hit the reset button.

The 90s were long over and not still a problem. And the problems she had in 2016 were brand new ones.

My point about Lieberman is that Bernie painted her as being barely a Democrat in a way that Obama, Biden, Kerry and O'Malley were not seen. He presented her in a way that she had not previously been seen and which was not consistent with her record.

Younger voters, for example, would never have guessed that she fought so hard for a more liberal health care system all the way back in the 1990s. Hell, they wouldn't even have guessed that she opposed the Bush/Cheney tax cuts. Sanders redefined her and he did so in a very unfair and inaccurate way.

"Sanders's branding of Hillary as 'establishment,' however, seemed vastly unjust and corrosively divisive to me, especially when delivered to a generation that knew very little about her beyond what Bernie told them. Like 'progressive,' 'establishment' is a pretty meaningless term, particularly when lobed at one Washington politician by another. ... Nevertheless, for weeks during the early months of the primary, I listened to nineteen-year-olds and media pundits alike lavish praise on Bernie Sanders for his bold, revolutionary message, and scorn Hillary for being a part of the 'establishment.' ... He was seen as 'authentic' in his progressivism while she was pushed to the left by police expediency -- as though a lifetime of fighting for equality and children's rights meant nothing. He was champion of the 'working class' (conveniently ignoring that black and white women were members, and that their issues were also 'working class' issues), but her longstanding commitments to universal health care, child care, paid sick leave, racial justice, the repeal of the Hyde Amendment, and narrowing the wage gap between working men and women apparently evaporated because she'd accepted well-paid invitations to speak at Goldman Sachs."

Susan Bordo

The Hillary-Goldman Sachs/Wall Street-beholden was trademarked by Bernie Sanders, he's solely responsible.

My grandparents, who were very liberal and undoubtedly would have supported Bernie if they had been alive in 2016, were very distrusting of Hillary and saw her as inadequately progressive long before Bernie ran against her. Their feelings about her stemmed mainly from her 2002 vote for the Iraq War, back when Bernie was still a Congressman most Americans had never heard of.

As much as Hillary has been reviled by the right and painted as a far left extremist, many progressives have not trusted her at least since she voted for the Iraq War. Some people also (unfairly) assumed her to be too centrist because her husband was, even though she was always more liberal than he was on most issues.

Yes, she had a high approval rating when she was Secretary of State and had been out of electoral politics for several years and had nobody running against her in either party, but that was bound to change once she became a candidate for president.

I was disappointed with Bernie for taking so long to endorse her and not doing more to clear up some misperceptions among his most fervent supporters, which is the main reason I am not supporting him this time around. But to blame Bernie for all of the distrust for Hillary among the base is crazy. If that were true, Obama never would have had a chance against her in 2008.

But everyone I know who supported him initially voted for Hillary in the general. They hate Trump as much as the rest of us do. Trump is the opposite of both candidates - all of our candidates, actually!

Here's How Many Bernie Sanders Supporters Ultimately Voted For Trump


https://www.democraticunderground.com/128775104

They swallowed the Russian propaganda.

almost a quarter of Clinton supporters went for McCain.


Its almost as if there's some kind of double standard here.

...I think you're wrong...see for yourself





...

...

He's still in thr top tier, just as he has been since the beginning. It must be awkward how he keeps not crashing and burning the way you guys keep predicting. Very inconsiderate of Bernie Sanders

Hmm anyway times like these I regret I can't insert a gif of willy Wonka in the comments.

(Might be a way . I just don't know it)

Right now, I’m with Warren, but will vote for whoever the candidate is.

Last time around, I was for Bernie and on General election day I voted for Hillary thru tears.
But, I did it.

Damn it, how the he!! Did we still wind up with the $hitgibbon?

Sigh

Not in 2016, not now. Democrats understand that getting rid of Trump is a top priority.

For that matter, they understood that not electing him in the first place should have been a top priority, but not everyone agreed or cared enough to vote. Some voted for Trump.

I'm undecided in this primary, but as someone who supported Bernie in the 2016 primaries and then wholly supported Hillary in the general, I take exception to the insinuation that Bernie's supporters did not support the eventual nominee last time. The vast majority of us did support Hillary after the primaries in 2016, and it's unfortunate that a narrow but vocal subset of his supporters got so much attention during the 2016 convention and gave people the impression that most of Bernie's supporters did not line up behind Hillary.

this time around and all hell will break loose. People don't realize that the constant Bernie bashing, not just here, turns off a lot of voters. I'd walk over hot coals to vote for the Democratic nominee over the Traitor-in-Chief, but obviously, not everyone feels the same way. Hell, half the country doesn't vote, period!!

We need to unite like never before... vote blue no matter who!!


Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Time for all to join the progressive revolution!!

Refreshing, measured and calm under pressure.

You can see pretty much anything you want. I thought Bernie more than fine. I actually thought everybody did well to get their talking points out. No real losers or winners unlike in previous debates.

He comes across as a scold and someone who seems to think he has all of the answers. Maybe he does, but he'll piss off a lot of Democrats who see him as a bloviator. MHOO.

And that's never going to happen

How convenient!
One of the rules here is not disparaging our democratic candidates.
There's nothing wrong with Bernie.

when he joined.

Just because you don't agree with him is no reason for you to call him out personally.

But i vote blue no matter who.

society. They see evil and corruption in things that to more reasoned observers have neither. They sheath their outrage in the cloak of desire for what is best for society, so it makes it hard for other progressives to attack their skewed logic.