Mayor Pete casts doubt on Trump's Christianity

[True Dough]

Does Buttigieg think Trump is a Christian?

“I'm reluctant to comment on another person's faith, but I would say it is hard to look at this president's actions and believe that they're the actions of somebody who believes in God,” he said. “I just don't understand how you can be as worshipful of your own self as he is and be prepared to humble yourself before God. I've never seen him humble himself before anyone. And the exaltation of yourself, especially a self that's about wealth and power, could not be more at odds with at least my understanding of the teachings of the Christian faith.”

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/04/03/mayor-pete-buttigieg-christian-right-2020-democratic-primary-trump-column/3342767002/

[mr_liberal]

1. Sounds bigoted towards atheists.

Not believing in god doesn't make you a bad person, and believing in god doesn't make you a good person.

[cwydro]

2. Oh please.

He’s specifically talking about the shitgibbon.

[mr_liberal]

9. It would apply to everyone though. It would mean that if you're sincerely religious

then your automatically a good person. I don't agree with that.

[Celerity]

11. that claim you make is not logically sound (and I am a hardcore atheist)

Trump CLAIMS to be a christian

Buttigieg is not saying that one needs to believe in 'god' to be a good person

he is saying that Trump (a self-professed believer) is violating most, if not all, of the tenets that christianity espouses

[mr_liberal]

14. So if someone sincerely believes in god and christian then that would make them a good president? nt

[Celerity]

16. again with the logical disconnect

Buttigieg never said one has to believe in 'god' to be a good person

you are grasping at straws

[mr_liberal]

19. He's saying if they do sincerely believe they would be a good person/president though. nt

[Celerity]

23. you just keep digging deeper in the field of logical fallacies

He never said any such thing. You have made multiple erroneous projections and misreadings.

I am done here.

cheers

[mr_liberal]

26. I think you mean erroneous. Pete's the one making logical fallacies imo. nt

[Celerity]

29. oh snap, I fixed it, damn auto-correct, that was a bad one, eeeeek

lol

Also, there is no logical fallacy in what he said.

[crimycarny]

30. Huh??

How in the world did you extrapolate that conclusion?? He was asked if he thought Trump was a Christian, period. He wasn't asked anything about whether or not being a Christian makes a person a better President or a better person in general. And his answer didn't imply that either. His answer was confined to the question, which was "do you think Trump is a Christian". Period.

That's not an easy question for a politician to answer, BTW. I expected a lot of hemming and hawing, a vague non-answer so as not to offend anyone. Yet he answered it pretty honestly in my book.

[True Dough]

53. Very well stated, crimycarny

And welcome to the DU!

[thesquanderer]

60. re: "He's saying if they do sincerely believe they would be a good person/president though"

Nope.

He said that someone who behaves as Trump does is unlikely to believe.

That is NOT the same as saying that someone who believes would automatically be a good president. It is also not the same as saying that a non-believer can't be a good person, or a good president

[sfwriter]

108. Back that up with a quote from him.

He has, in fact, made an effort to include the faithless. See his comment on faith at SXSW.

He has only brought his faith into the argument to cast the faith of Pence and Trump, as well as a lot of fundamentalists, into doubt. He is accurately pointing out that Christ's teachings do not square with conservative politics.

I'll take anything short of a citation as your concession.

[cwydro]

52. Good luck.

He’s stuck on his false premise imo.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

41. He didn't say that.

He said that Trump regularly violates the tenets of Christianity. This does not mean you have to be Christian to be a good person, but only that Christianity does have some specific rules about that - feeding the hungry, healing the sick, clothing the naked, etc. - and that if you claim to be a Christian you should take those rules seriously but Trump doesn't. He did not say at all that people who are not believers are bad, or that only believers are good.

[DownriverDem]

22. I want a candidate that

can win in November 2020. Too far left won't do it.

[pangaia]

28. Which one is 'too far left?' What is 'too far left?'

[BamaRefugee]

44. Unfortunately "too far left" nowadays is basically a mid 70s moderate Republican stance.

[True Dough]

3. He's calling out the fake president

Someone who professes to be a religious individual, but clearly does not act with any compassion.

[Roy Rolling]

12. It's Pete's Opinion

He believes Trump does not exhibit the character of someone guided by a higher principle, God, or whatever. That "whatever" could be an atheistic code of non-religiosity, too. As for Pete, he apparently believes a "God" is part of that guiding principle in his life that demands goodness, not evil and selfishness. And one characteristic of following that principle is humility, which Trump has none.

That's reasonable even if my religion is Atheism.

[mr_liberal]

15. Pence does though and he would also be bad. nt

[marylandblue]

61. He's criticized Pence for violating Christian principles as well.

Buttigieg is giving voice to the religious left. Regardless of your theological concerns, they are your political allies. They share many more values with the average atheist than with the religious right.

[murielm99]

78. It is high time that the religious left was given a voice.

Please remember that Hillary, our last candidate, made no secret of her reliance on her Christian faith.

If I came to DU and started being unduly critical of Islam, Judaism, Buddhism or anything else, I would be jumped on and my posts would most likely be removed. Yet it seems to be fine to be hypercritical of Christianity. I am not just talking about the religious right and many of you here know it.

[treestar]

111. I don't think Dotard even professes it

HIs followers profess it for him.

[True Dough]

114. This link was provided in a post above

He's not fooling anybody.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-god-talk-is-turning-america-off-religion

[marlakay]

6. I don't go to church either

But the point is Trump says he does and has all the envangicals believing in him.

Its easy to see Trump is using his fake beliefs.

I think its time someone call out politicians that do this.

[mr_liberal]

7. They don't believe it. They know its an act. They just like his policies and his judges. nt

[karynnj]

10. It is more central to WHO he is and his values than whether he attends church.

Consider the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector - https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-Pharisee-tax-collector.html

[karynnj]

8. How do you get that?

He was contrasting Christian values vs Trump's values. He says nothing about the need to believe in God to have and exhibit Christian values. Incidentally, when speaking of a similar contrast between Christianity and Mike Pence, he explicitly uses the word hypocrite.

[stopbush]

25. The assumption that "Christian values" are something positive is ridiculous.

The hatreds, bigotry, prejudices and misogyny that form the basis of Christian dogma are nothing of value.

[karynnj]

34. From the point of a Christian, as Mayor Pete is, there are positive values

.. And I would bet that he would agree that many things have been done in the name of ANY religion. You, on the other hand, have denied ANY positive value to religion. I have no idea if that is your belief as I am going just from that one sentence.

[mr_liberal]

45. Whatever beliefs, good or bad, should have nothing to do with what a President does.

Separation of church and state.

[karynnj]

58. Any person is informed by the values he or she has

It does not matter what the source of those values is. It does matter what the values are and whether they inform the actions taken.

If I had to list three things that I look for in a candidate, they are:
1 Character, integrity and values I agree with
2 proven ability to create a team, bring in different views and make intelligent decisions
3 a vision of things they want to do for the country that I agree with.

In any election, it may be that multiple Democrats will show they meet these criteria to a large extent. Some more than most. I do not expect my favorite to always be the choice of others.

[LAS14]

39. Those are definitely NOT Christian values. They might..

... be the values of some people that claim they are Christians, but they are not Christian values. Go back to the primary sources.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

43. Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the prisoner, welcoming the stranger?

I always thought those parts of it, at least, were pretty good principles to follow.

[mr_liberal]

50. And what else is in the Bible that we can base laws and policies on? nt

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

54. I'm not saying we should be basing laws and policies on the Bible.

I am saying that altruism and compassion as expressed in the teachings of Jesus and in the teachings of all other major religions as well, as well as by non-religious philosophers and thinkers, are good principles for people to live by. If you think feeding the hungry and welcoming the stranger are positive values you'll want your government to do those things regardless of whether they came from the Bible or from your own beliefs, religiously-inspired or not.

[3catwoman3]

72. Well said, VO, very well said.

You and Mayor Pete both express yourselves with sophistication and clarity.

[MicaelS]

69. Suuuurrre.

Feeding the poor, clothing and helping the homeless, downtrodden and oppressed are all nothing of value.

Too bad MLK is not still alive. He would make the atheist left's head spin.

But nonconservative Christians generally do not receive the same level of news media attention as the religious right, despite their deep understanding of Scripture and thriving faith traditions. Because most journalists are secular, they can be gullible in looking to the religious right as arbiters of biblical interpretation, especially as it relates to hot-button cultural and political issues. Because of this, many Americans aren’t even aware of the rich tradition of progressive Christianity.

[pdsimdars]

13. Wow, feeling defensive or what? He didn't say ANYTHING about athiests.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

18. "hard to look at this president's actions and believe that they're the actions of somebody...

...who believes in God."

So those that act like Trump are non-believers.

As an atheist, it's a subtle dig that he probably doesn't even realize he's saying, but it's the layer underneath what he is saying.

[stopbush]

21. Yep

[thesquanderer]

36. even saying "those that act like Trump are non-believers" does not mean...

...that you must be a believer to act differently from Trump.

Or put differently, let's agree that a Christian OR an atheist who behaves morally is good; a Christian OR an atheist who behaves immorally is not good.

Completely consistent with that (and with no slight toward atheists), it is possible to ALSO say that someone who behaves immorally is not a good Christian, yes?

[Cuthbert Allgood]

76. He specifically used belief in God as the evaluation point of good actions.

"it is hard to look at this president's actions and believe that they're the actions of somebody who believes in God"

We know this because he said specifically that. I don't know that he understands or actually means the implications of that statement, but anything else is just guessing about what he meant. We know what he actually said.

[thesquanderer]

86. He did not say that.

You quoted: ""it is hard to look at this president's actions and believe that they're the actions of somebody who believes in God"

But then you said "He specifically used belief in God as the evaluation point of good actions" -- which is NOT evident from the sentence you quoted!

He is NOT saying that people who do not believe in God are not capable of good actions.

He is NOT saying that people whose actions are good must necessarily believe in God

He IS saying that certain bad actions are inconsistent with believing in God. As you said, "anything else is just guessing about what he meant. We know what he actually said."

[Cuthbert Allgood]

88. So are you a believer?

Not trying to be a dick. Really. Because this is something I come up against as an atheist all the time. And the privilege is hard to let go of.

You don't get it. I understand that. I like him and don't think he meant that in a bad way, but people need to realize the impact of what they are saying even when they aren't malicious.

[thesquanderer]

89. This is about logic, not faith.

Your statement simply did not logically follow from his, did I not demonstrate that sufficiently?

As for my feelings about religion, I'll put it this way: Although Mayor Pete is my current favorite, I'd like him even more if he were an atheist/agnostic, except for the fact that it would be harder for him to get elected.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

90. Understood

I talk about in a response to someone else. It's a binary. You are a believer or you aren't. They are mutually exclusive. If you aren't demonstrating the actions of a believer, that only leaves one other option.

[thesquanderer]

97. I think your math is off.

re:

If you aren't demonstrating the actions of a believer, that only leaves one other option.

No, logically, there are (at least) four possibilities:

... You demonstrate the actions of a believer, and you believe.

... You demonstrate the actions of a believer, but you don't believe.

... You do not demonstrate the actions of a believer, yet you do believe. (This is the possibility Pete commented on, essentially saying it is unlikely.)

... You do not demonstrate the actions of a believer, and you do not believe.

And onto your other topic, it's not necessarily a binary of believe or do not, either. There are people who don't believe but are open to the possibility, while others firmly do not believe (aka the difference between "not believing in God" and "believing there is no God", which are two different things). There are also people who "don't know and don't care."

Simply, there may be more ways to look at something than you think there are. Few ideas of significance can be reduced to simple binary options.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

105. Maybe

As to your last point, I think you are confusing gnosticism and belief. One either believes there is some kind of god or one doesn't. The certainty of that belief is a different binary.

As to your first, you make a valid point. But even in your four possibilities matrix, it is the actions of the believer that are set as the standard of how one should act and the actions of the non-believer that should be avoided.

[thesquanderer]

113. But...

One either believes there is some kind of god or one doesn't.

One can also say, "I neither believe nor disbelieve... I just don't know."

But even in your four possibilities matrix, it is the actions of the believer that are set as the standard of how one should act and the actions of the non-believer that should be avoided.

It was just a way to reference what our society considers "moral" or "good" behavior, in the same context as Pete in the OP. So that includes things like not killing, stealing, lying, etc. But of course, good behavior does not correlate with belief, and nobody (including Pete) is saying otherwise. That's the point. He may be saying that BAD behavior does not (as he sees it) correlate with belief, but that is a different thing than saying bad behavior correlates with disbelief, OR saying that good behavior does not correlate with disbelief. Surely you can see that all of these statements are different? And there are multiple permutations of these thoughts that are in fact NOT mutually exclusive? i.e. you can certainly say that someone acting immorally is not acting like a good Christian, without by any means implying that one must be Christian to act morally. And that's how I read Pete's perspective, and any attempt to read more (specifically anti-disbeliever) into it goes beyond his actual words into your own supposition.

So getting back to my "four possibilities matrix, I will add words to option four to increase clarity:

... You demonstrate the {good, moral/ethical} actions {typically associated in the U.S. with those} of a believer, but you don't believe.

And there are many, many, many people who fall into that category. And nothing Pete said gives me any reason to think he believes otherwise.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

117. I completely agree with this:

"It was just a way to reference what our society considers "moral" or "good" behavior"

I think that supports my argument that this is a representation of privilege. And how it can make those that aren't believers feel. That's been my only point, really, I think. I don't think Pete is trying to throw atheists under the bus. But privilege makes people not understand the impact of their words on those without the privilege.

I fully can go with your rewording at the bottom. If he had said something like that, it would be recognizing the privilege. And I think he probably meant something like that.

As to the first part of your post, I think we could dig deeper into that "I'm not sure" and draw a line between which way you lean. This chart explains the binary aspect that I don't think many understand and confuse believe with gnosticism.


I have enjoyed this back and forth. Nice not getting into a pissing match.

[thesquanderer]

119. Continuing...

Last edited Mon Apr 8, 2019, 02:57 PM - Edit history (1)

re:

"It was just a way to reference what our society considers "moral" or "good" behavior"

I think that supports my argument that this is a representation of privilege.

This reminds me of the criticism that "Black Lives Matter" was interpreted by some people as being too exclusive, as if it somehow implied other lives didn't matter, which of course misses the point entirely. Saying that a religious believer (i.e. someone who follows the tenets of his/her faith) would be expected to exhibit moral/good behavior does not mean that non-religious people are likely to behave badly. As in the BLM example, this strikes me as implying negatives about alternate scenarios which are not intended. Just like with BLM, I think one should simply take the single scenario as presented at face value, and not read into it what you think the speaker may be saying (but probably isn't) about alternate scenarios, i.e. about groups of people other than the one mentioned.

I like the belief vs. knowledge chart. But to extract from that (as you said earlier) "one either believes there is some kind of god or one doesn't" is like the typical "there are two kinds of people..." generalizations, which are rarely valuable except when the basis of a joke. They often simply group everyone who agrees with your premise in one box and everyone else in the other, without recognizing all the diversity in each. Let's try this small variation from your statement: There are two kinds of people... Christians and non-Christians. From some perspectives, that may sound quite reasonable. But I don't think it is generally really helpful to reduce the group to two categories, when the non-Christian category itself includes numerous sub-groups... Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, Wiccans, whatever... and so the binary distinction really has no value, except perhaps to Christians. (And of course, the Christian box has its own sub-groups of denominations, as well.) So to say there are two kind of people, those who believe and those who do not, even allowing for the belief/knowledge separation on your chart, I think unnecessarily groups together all the different kinds of non-believers there are. Those who allow for the possibility, those who do not, those who just don't care, those who choose to participate in their church or whatever for the sense of community but do not necessarily believe, those who believe there may be something but don't align with any commonly acknowledged belief set and would not call themselves believers. I don't think Pete's proposition--that someone who believes would not be expected to act in a manner so grossly inconsistent with the teachings of his religion--is insulting to all those other groups that make up non-believers, or for that matter, even non-Christians, which one could arguably be another differentiation one could find in his comment. I think his statement stands on its own just fine, and in no way insults all those who do not believe, in all the manners in which they don't believe, nor does it insult those believers who are not Christian. Like BLM, it is a statement that can simply stand on its own, and does not need further interpretation by those looking to be offended.

As an aside, as your boxes kind of show, just as there are agnostic non-believers who allow for the possibility, there are also believers who allow for the possibility that they are wrong in what they believe. There is a kind of "continuum of belief" and people don't need to fall into neat boxes... so even IF some statement toward disbelievers were to be insulting, I think maybe it's not so clear who should be insulted!

At least we agree on the virtue of civil conversation.

[mr_lebowski]

38. Pretty sure you're committing a logical fallacy ...

One that's taking this basic form:

Given: All fish live in the sea
Given: A dog does not live in the sea
Therefore: All creatures not living in the sea are dogs.

[guillaumeb]

55. Except for the fact that he never said anything like that.

Perhaps you are digging too deep.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

75. Someone who doesn't have the privilege of religion is telling you how this comes across.

You could either listen to that and understand the position of those with the privilege, or you could just sit obliviously in your pool or privilege. It's up to you. Seems like you decision is pretty clear.

[guillaumeb]

99. And I am noting that what you are searching for is not in the post.

So is this some type of undercurrent that a few here sense?

Do not create enemies and hostility where there is none.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

100. So double down on the not listening. Cool cool.

I get it. It's tough to leave that privilege.

I like Pete as my candidate choice indicates. But he falls into the same trap of privilege that a lot do.

And please don't tell me to just hush up about the problems I have with people's privilege. #allreligionsmatter right?

[guillaumeb]

101. I am not asking you to not speak.

Simply to show how you arrived at this conclusion.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

103. I've been very clear on several sub threads here.

The rest is on you. I have faith in you (see what I did there).

[guillaumeb]

104. I read the entire thread.

Your faith was not enough. I require proof. (A reversal of roles.)

[pdsimdars]

63. Like I said, paranoia or something, he said NOTHING about athiests.

He said for someone who claims to believe he isn't acting like it. That is LOGICALLY not the same as saying those who don't believe are like Trump.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

74. That's not what he said.

He didn't say that Trump isn't being consistent with his statements.

He said that he isn't acting like a believer. Which means he's acting like a non-believer.

[pdsimdars]

83. Just like I said, not acting like a believer is NOT the same as saying acting like a non-believer

Like I said, it is a logical fallacy on your part, a logical inference you are making.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

85. OK, so logically, this is a binary, mutually exclusive thing, right?

You are a believer or you are not--there is no overlap.

So he says that Trump is not acting like a believer. That only leaves one other option.

[pdsimdars]

91. Well, let's see the title says "Christianity"

Buttigieg was saying he actions did not conform with Pete's understanding of CHRISTIANITY. There are a lot of good people who believe in things other than Christianity. You are wrong. Christianity is not the only thing to believe in.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

93. The title, but he specifically states belief in God.

"I would say it is hard to look at this president's actions and believe that they're the actions of somebody who believes in God"

Nice try, though. Why can't people just listen to those that don't have privilege when they are trying to explain what the world looks like through that lack of privilege lens? It doesn't bother most people because they don't see the glaring statement about nonbelief. I get that. But maybe just realize that I'm trying to show you a different experience in the world.

[tinrobot]

17. This is more about hypocrisy than anything.

Christians are supposed to put God first. It's kind of what they do.

If Trump says he's a Christian, then he's being a hypocrite.

[stopbush]

20. Yep.

[LAS14]

33. He didn't say a thing about atheists. He just said Trump's actions are...

... inconsistent with Christianity.

[MicaelS]

62. Quit trying to make this about atheism. It's not.

It is about Trump being a Christian in name only. If you call yourself a Christian you are supposed to live the faith.

If you are not a Christian then it does not apply to you.

[Karadeniz]

67. I don't think so (bigoted). He's only addressing trump and Christianity and analyzing

Trump within that framework.

[kooth]

73. Right-On!

I'm with you on this one!

[IndianaDave]

94. He's talking about the hypocrisy of Trump, not the "superiority" of religion

Trump claims to be Christian. His attitudes and actions do not conform to authentic, Christian beliefs. It's that simple.

I have heard Pete say ( and I'm paraphrasing - I don't have a transcript, and I'm quoting from memory) that the Democratic party is the party of Freedom. And that every American is free to follow religious beliefs or no beliefs. We are a free people.

He has neither said or done anything that I'm aware of (and I follow him pretty carefully) to denigrate or dismiss people of any faith or no faith. Pete is comfortable saying that he's a Christian, but I have not seen him make any effort to push his beliefs on anyone else, or to disrespect our Atheist citizens.

And I liked the fact that he specifically affirmed his support for people who have no belief system. Had he not done so, I would have been deeply disappointed in him. We are NOT now, and never have been "a Christian country!"

[Eric J in MN]

102. Yes. NT

NT

[customerserviceguy]

110. I'm an atheist

and I was not offended in the slightest by the words in the OP.

Trump claims to be Christian, and he certainly has the backing of many, if not most, of the fundie preachers in this country. Pete is pointing out that he doesn't see how Trump's behavior square with his supposed Christian beliefs, as he understands them.

[IndianaDave]

116. You clearly perceive what Pete was getting at. Please read #94 above.

I did my best to summarize what Pete was saying, and provided an account of a speech I heard him give. I think you'll like the info, customerserviceguy!

Dave

[radical noodle]

120. It isn't at all

trump claims to be a good christian and therefore deserves the hit. Pete has said more than once that people have the right to any belief or no belief in religion.

[Paladin]

4. Thank you, Mayor Pete.

That was through the celestial goal posts.

[jalan48]

24. Smart move. How's Trump going to use his tactic of belittling in this case?

[Marcuse]

92. He used that tactic on the Pope, although the inquiries of earlier Popes were more robust.

[link:https://www.bbc.com/news/av/election-us-2016-35609285/trump-calls-pope-comment-disgraceful|

Addressing a rally in South Carolina, Mr Trump responded to the Pope's comments about his Christianity.
"For a religious leader to question a person's faith is disgraceful. I am proud to be a Christian," Mr Trump said. "No leader, especially a religious leader, should have the right to question another man's religion or faith."

[jalan48]

106. Thanks. How dare the Pope!

[SidDithers]

27. Blech...

I really dislike people who equate goodness and Christianity. Like you can’t be an asshole and a Christian.

There are plenty of shitty people in this world, who are also Christians. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Sid

[LAS14]

40. He didn't equate goodness with Christianity. But he does equate Christianity with goodness. There.

... is a difference.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

46. There are good and bad Christians, Jews, Muslims, atheists, agnostics,

Sufis, Hindus, and anything else you can name. Buttigieg's point, which as a non-church-person I agree with 100%, is that Trump claims to be a Christian but he doesn't follow the principles of altruism and compassion that Jesus was said to have insisted on. This is true of a lot of other claimed Christians too, as well as some Jews, Muslims, atheists, agnostics, Sufis, Hindus, and anything else you can name.

[mr_lebowski]

48. Being an asshole would be against Christian values, and therefore he'd say the same about them

This argument he's making ... isn't what you're saying it is.

[marylandblue]

66. It's not what you say it is either.

He is saying that Trump is not a Christian. There is a long tradition of Christians calling each other out like this, goong back to the New Testament.

If you ask him about atheism directly, I am sure he would give you a perfectly acceptable answer about respecting beliefs and separation of church and state.

[treestar]

112. To sort of quote Stephen Colbert

addressing the Dotard: You sir, are both not Christian, and bad."

[DallasNE]

31. That's A Minefield

But Pete manages to navigate it very well. Now comes the Tweet.

[keithbvadu2]

32. How could anyone doubt?

How could anyone doubt?

[TheRealNorth]

115. LOL

[Thomas Hurt]

35. Trump is a christian as far as I am concerned.

However I have a question about whether the fundie right should consider him being a christian, given his behavior past and present. I saw an interview, that happened some years ago, I think, where he said he does not believe in repentance or forgiveness.

Given his lack of shame and vindictiveness in the WH, his behavior aligns with that statement.

In my view the family values crowd abandoned what little moral authority they had when they sold out to trump for overturning Roe.

[LiberalLovinLug]

37. But Trump has never said "I am a Christian" has he?

In fact one of his quotes is:
"Why do I have to repent, why do I have to ask for forgiveness if [I'm] not making mistakes?"


The Christian Right knows this. So this kind of accusation is just running at windmills.

No, the Evangelcal base has twisted the narrative, like they are prone to do, to fit their needs. He is now the new King Cyrus of ancient Persia. The king that defeated the Babylonians, and in doing so, freed their slaves and prisoners which included the jews who then established Israel. He was never a Christian, but God apparently used him to help His people.

Its impossible. You can't win with that crowd. They will twist everything into it either being okay now....(ie. evil Rock music) or God is just allowing a bad ruler to fulfill His prophecies, and if all else fails, then its just God's good old "mysterious ways"

When Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem, they made up this coin:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

49. Yes, he has, repeatedly. He just isn't very convincing.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-god-talk-is-turning-america-off-religion

[LiberalLovinLug]

59. Sorry, but I read through that whole article and did not see him do that

Trump has even indicated that God probably had a hand in the election, noting that such a victory “would require major help from God… and we got it!”

That is not the same as saying that God is his personal saviour.

Not only have I never heard him say the words "I am a Christian" (which if he deserves any credit for anything, he at least is not claiming to be) but from my previous post quote you see that he has not asked for forgiveness ever. And if you know anything about the Christian faith, in becoming a Christian it is a paramount requirement to humbly bow and admit you are a sinner and need forgiveness. The whole center of that religion is then God granting you that forgiveness. Then *presto* you get to live forever in a big gold mansion....just like Trump!!!

[3catwoman3]

64. He most definitely does. There is audio of him saying...

..."First of all, I'm a really great Christian - and I am." Bragging about it, just like everything else he claims to be or do. Which pesky little commandment is it, Donnie Dumbass, that says, "Thou shalt not bear false witness," eh?

Mayor Pete nails it. There is absolutely NOTHING about Trumps actions that is even remotely in line with the teachings attributed to Jesus.

(Happily questioning agnostic here.)

[LiberalLovinLug]

71. I've never heard that. But I'll take your word for it.

And he may have even said that he is, spoken the words, but hardly ever, and only if he feels he needs to, like he's speaking in front of an evangelical audience and lies to them about it. Like I said, he would have had to say he has asked for forgiveness even to start the process of becoming a born again Christian. I grew up in that community.

The point is that we can't even fight him on that hill because no one is listening. At least the Christians, who'd be the only ones who'd care about that. They have already moved on to the other higher hill, easier to defend. Because on this hill they have all their bases covered. Some I'm sure think he is a devout God fearing man who humbles himself before God (in private), but most others have been convinced like Pat Robertson among others, that he is the new King Cyrus. An unholy vessel being led around by the nose by God. (I'm sure Trump wouldn't like that idea though)

[StevieM]

42. This is a terrible road to go down.

Does that mean that it is also OK for Republicans to question whether a Democrat is sincere in their faith?

Pete Buttigeg is saying this about one particular Republican. But the GOP likes to say it about every single Democrat. We should not treat this behavior as if it is legitimate.

[patphil]

47. Trump is no Christian

He is the complete antithesis of Jesus...I guess they would call that being the anti-Christ.

Patrick Phillips

[FiveGoodMen]

57. Trump has 100,000,000 followers and they are ALL the antithesis of Jesus

And they are nearly all church members and are called -- by themselves and by the press -- Christians.

Apparently, being the antithesis of Jesus is perfectly fine for Christians.

[Hamlette]

51. absolutely horrible choice of words, totally stupid place to plant a flag.

I do not want to spend the next two years debating God or Christianity. It is stupid and boring and no minds get changed.

His problem is he IS saying people who believe in god "act" better (humble, whatever) which of course implies people who don't believe in God do not. People don't act humble or adhere to 99% of Christian values because God told them to. People adhere to those values because we are sentient human beings.

Stomach turning. Hope he can find a way to beat a hasty retreat.

[crimycarny]

65. No, it doesn't

As an agnostic/almost atheist I didn't get implication at ALL. He was answering in the context of the question which was "Do you think Trump is Christian". There is nothing in his reply that implies those who believe in God "act" better than people who don't believe in God.

It's like someone asking "Do you believe Trump is a good husband" and Pete replying with something along the lines of "My belief is that what makes a good husband is someone who is faithful, honors their spouse, blah blah blah" and then you reading that as "See! He is saying people who aren't married aren't faithful!".

[Hamlette]

87. see, compete waste of time

I thought it offensive and while you didn't, it does not advance the ball down the field. You'll be lucky if it dies a quick death and doesn't surface again.

Mind's will not be changed by this kind of argument. It only pisses people off.

[mr_lebowski]

68. It only 'implies that' ... if one commits a logical fallacy ...

If I had the tools to make a Venn diagram I could easily illustrate that you're mistaken

[MicaelS]

70. Would you have said the same thing to MLK? n/t

[iscooterliberally]

56. But Trump has humbled himself before another person.

Unfortunately that person was Vladimir Putin, at the Helsinki summit.

[Celerity]

77. probably Stormy too

He had to be humbled when he dropped his trousers and she saw what she has to 'work' with

[iscooterliberally]

81. oh...that means there's a whole list of people.

Yikes!!

[Raven123]

79. I'm surprised at the comments here

Mayor Pete’s statement can be parsed as 2 separate assertions.

As Mayor Pete sees it, if one believes in God, one worships God rather than oneself. He has not seen Trump do that. Neither have I. If anything Trump seeks worship. Think of the rountable of cabinet members thanking him during meetings.

As Mayor Pete sees it, Trump’s exaltation of self, wealth and power is inconsistent with Mayor Pete’s understanding of Christianity.

That’s it. It was NOT an “if and only if statement” regarding humility, kindness etc.

I think he was spot on.

[True Dough]

80. Excellent summation

I hope those who don't get it read your post and it clicks for them.

[jaceaf]

82. forget rethoric

The implication of his statement is that christians are good people and by extension that atheists are not.

As an atheist gay, I really can't stand this log cabin republican in hiding

[True Dough]

84. Sounds like you've made up your mind already

even though your "by extension" is unsubstantiated.

A much better thought out take just above yours, #79.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1287&pid=51400

[Celerity]

96. +1

[Celerity]

95. complete bollocks, he never made such an inference

I am an atheist lesbian of colour btw, and I am 100% completely comfortable with Pete's view on religion. You want to ramrod a outwardly hostile stance in a country that is 70% christian, 3% atheist and 5% agnostic, well good luck with ever getting anywhere politically.

[IndianaDave]

98. I would appreciate it if you would read post 94, above. I think it will be helpful for you, jaceaf

I understand your feelings, and I have put some effort into providing some context to this controversy.

Best wishes

IndianaDave

[MyNameGoesHere]

109. If a person feels a reluctance

To comment on another person's religious practice or faith, that should be a warning to not say anything.

[ProfessorPlum]

118. Trump does a better job of casting doubt on Trump's Christianity

but I like someone who will call out a hypocrite.