Fidel Castro

[live2011]

Fidel Castro did NOT overthrow a Democracy. Cuba was a dictatorship, lead by a Dictator which the USA supported. He overthrew a dictatorship, not a Democracy. You’re thinking of the USA/CIA. We are the ones who overthrow Democracies.

[msongs]

1. he overthrew a dictatorship and started a new one with him as the dictator nt

[YOHABLO]

2. And by Castro throwing out the dictator he threw out the mob.

All the casinos and night clubs were under mob control.

[wyldwolf]

3. was Fidel Castro a dictator?

[lapfog_1]

4. They went from Bastista (murderous dictator) to Castro

a murderous dictator. It is estimated that Castro killed thousands of people in the revolution (4000 or so by some - admittedly anti-Castro - group estimates)

Not sure why Bernie didn't just avoid the question and say something like "I support open dialogue with the Cuban government at this point in time" without even talking about Castro.

[braddy]

5. Wasn't that back in the 1950s and didn't Castro become dictator for life?

[live2011]

6. More on Fidel

After the Cuban Revolution, Fidel Castro was invited to speak to the UN. ALL of the hotels in New York REFUSED to rent rooms to Castro and his entourage. ALL of them. Nikita Khrushchev was in NY at the time and invited Castro and his entourage to share the rooms he rented with his entourage. That was when the USA lost Fidel to the Russians.

[sandensea]

9. Good point. And of the biggest reasons for that was Meyer Lansky.

Lansky and his mafia associates, as you know, had close ties to Nixon - famously going so far as to fix horse races for him (and for J. Edgar "Mary" Hoover).

They made dark money support for his 1960 campaign contingent on his coming out staunchly against Castro (who was not a communist at that point) - and his getting the rest of the administration on board.

Nixon, who never liked Cubans (he considered them "fond of illicit enrichment, and difficult to control once they attain status" ), had no trouble going along.

[Blue_true]

12. What is "illicit enrichment"? nt

[sandensea]

13. Ask Trump

[Enoki33]

7. It was often discussed among certain diplomatic circles

that US policy towards Cuba, and in particular Fidel Castro, was to a large degree dictated by expatriate Cubans in Miami who were at that time more interested in immediate recovery of their often questionable wealth lost to the Castro regime than in the long term interests of both countries, and of democracy itself. The end result of such policies dictated by local politics was to drive Castro into the welcoming arms of Nikita Khrushchev. US policy towards Cuba is still regressive - all one has to do is a superficial comparison with those of Canada and the European countries.

[sandensea]

10. +1

And what's worse, they've since come to consider themselves the arbiters of what should and should not be supported in Latin America even today.

Right-wing presidents - even abject failures like Argentina's recently defeated Macri? ¡Amigos!

Left-wing (even center-left) presidents - even those who, like Bolivia's Morales, preside over steady 4% growth? ¡Golpe! (coup)

[Enoki33]

14. There is no doubt Fidel Castro ended up a murderous dictator

by choice in the end, or that with Russian assistance he destabilized sections of Africa, South America, and in quest of an English speaking base parts of the Caribbean that justified the economic embargo. One unintended consequence of that embargo was to preserve Cuba’s natural wonders from industrialization. Today, if Cuba is smart, have the benefit of seeing how other Caribbean islands, and indeed much of the world, have ruined great parts of their environment, and how not to make the same mistakes when development eventually comes, as it surely will.

[sandensea]

15. Yes- but it doesn't give Miami Cubans the right to dictate to other countries whom they should elect

Castro wasn't the only such dictator in the region, as you know. And the sad fact is that many fascist dictators, since 1960, have been supported by official (and unofficial) U.S. policy largely at the urging of radicalized Cuban exiles.

They, of course, couldn't care less about U.S. interests - which many of these dictators ended up harming both financially (the many Latin debt crises) and geopolitically.

To these right-wing Cubans, only their pet resentment counts. Hijacking U.S. Latin America policy is simply, for them, a very good way to act on it.

[Awsi Dooger]

17. Foreign policy dictates local races here in Miami

That is not exaggeration. If someone is running for mayor of Sweetwater virtually none of the discussion involves Sweetwater. They debate foreign policy. Heatedly.

I'll give an anecdotal example of how this Sanders stuff plays out in real world terms. At Canes football games I sit next to an older Cuban man who is in his early '70s. We discuss game strategy all game long. We talk about various things all game long. In 2016 we were on opposite sides of the presidential race but it was never emotional. He wasn't afraid of a Hillary presidency. During the final home game prior to election day he shook my hand and said, "No matter who wins, at least it will be over."

Contrast to Bernie Sanders in which he was already sounding all the fear alarms a full season ahead of time. Many times during the 2019 games he was saying things like, "I can't believe this country is turning toward socialism. I never thought I would see the day. It should be impossible."

There was incredible emotion in his face and voice. If we nominate Sanders I guarantee I'll be experiencing an exponentially elevated version at every home game prior to election day this fall.

The details don't matter. I've got to laugh at all the threads here with details regarding Castro and which side did what. If we are speaking solely in electoral terms, Florida is off the map with a Sanders nomination and he takes away many lower tier seats as well.

That is simply reality. Outsiders can rant all they want. They are pure ignorant toward situational reality here in Florida.

[sandensea]

19. Sure. Because it's all many of them (the older ones mainly) care about - the nation be damned.

They're obsessed with Castro and daydream non-stop about "getting our Cuba back" - almost to the exclusion of everything else.

Accordingly, these older Cuban-Americans who fit that description, for the most part, would rather part with their mojitos and cafecitos than vote for any Democrat - socialist-leaning or not.

They'll never forgive ese hijo 'e puta de Kennedy, as they fondly refer to him.

[Enoki33]

20. I have family and friends in central and south Florida who pretty much

all tell me a variation of the same somber warning you have issued. As is said....those that have ears to hear.....

[sandensea]

8. Sad but true.

Though to be fair, some coups - like Argentina's in 1976 - have happened without the need of U.S. encouragement (though it was, in fact, given).

[brooklynite]

11. Every time you try to defend his statements, you've already lost.

Mao overthrew a military dictatorship

Lenin overthrew an autocratic monarchy

[myohmy2]

16. +1

...yes, facts and reality can be pesky things...

...thank you...

[tritsofme]

18. And then he had a revelation: Four legs good, two legs better!

[eissa]

21. I sympathize with Cuban leftists

who escaped tyranny and were left wondering how so many on the left fawned over a dictator who they themselves would never tolerate living under.

It is possible to be pro-Revolution and anti-Castro. The revolution would have never succeeded without the support and backing of a myriad of Cubans from various backgrounds and classes (yes, even the rich.) He may have been the charismatic leader, but there were thousands who fought, struggled and donated on behalf of the fight, most of whom ended up imprisoned, exiled or executed after he came to power.

Credit where it's due -- yes, Cuban literacy and healthcare made tremendous strides under his leadership....at the cost of many civil liberties and the decimation of the middle class. As the famous Cuban joke goes:

Q: What are the three greatest accomplishments of Fidel’s revolution?
A: Health, education, and sports

Q: What are the three greatest failures of Fidel’s revolution?
A: Breakfast, lunch, and dinner

[RGTIndy]

22. All revolutionaries are horrible murderous radicals

Except for George Washington and his crew. They were patriots. They didn't kill anybody that didn't deserve it. Duh.

[HarlanPepper]

23. If you're explaining you're losing.

That should be the single organizing principle of Bernie's campaign if he is to be the nominee.

[sammythecat]

24. I agree

Too many Americans(like, maybe a hundred million) are lousy at listening to explanations. Too many steps to keep track of, makes their head hurt, they tune out and just go with the initial accusation. The "wisdom of the American people" doesn't amount to much in my opinion.

[HarlanPepper]

25. We're kindred spirits

I think many care more about The Masked Singer or what the Kardashians are up to on Instagram. We’re not engaged like people in some countries are. It’s one reason why things are a mess.

[RandySF]

26. Good luck explaining that in October.

[Happy Hoosier]

27. So a dictator overthrew a dictator....

Yeah, not seeing how this helps....

[awesomerwb1]

28. It's absolutely incredible

How bernie supporters are defending this garbage. It's amazing.

"Well Castro wasn't that bad"

[zaj]

29. Overthrowing a dictator so you can be the dictator next?

Semantics.