Elie Mystal: "The only people insisting that a woman or minority can't win the presidency ...

[StarfishSaver]

are the ones who won't vote for a woman or minority to be president.""

Word.

[Demsrule86]

1. I voted for a woman in 16 and a minority ( president Obama) in 08 and 12.

Saying a woman can't win is not the same...we need three states. Biden is the one who can win those states.

[pnwmom]

2. Now that there are Democratic governors, that will help ANY Democrat

who's in the general.

I don't know why, for example, you don't think Senator Amy Klobuchar couldn't win those states. Trump himself only had 1% in opinion polls at this point in the last campaign, so the polls mean nothing right now.

[Demsrule86]

6. I don't think any woman candidate can win a general We live in

a sexist world.

[pnwmom]

9. Hillary won 2.9 million votes more than Trump. I don't believe the voters in those three

states are any more sexist than voters in other northern states.

Now that the Democratic governors are there to help with turnout, it's quite likely ANY Democrat would win, especially one like Klobuchar who's a proven vote getter in the midwest.

[Demsrule86]

12. You are wrong about this...she won the millions of votes alright but not in the rustbelt.

[pnwmom]

13. Minnesota's affected by the same issues, and naming some states in the upper midwest "rust belt"

and others not is purely arbitrary. It's just a nickname that Walter Mondale invented, when describing the problems those states faced with de-industrialization. And he didn't exclude his own state.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2017/06/30/a-tale-of-two-rust-belts-diverging-economic-paths-shaping-community-politics/

The cradle of America’s great industrial economy, the region has borne inventions such as the automobile and the assembly-line manufacturing process courtesy of Henry Ford. Industrial cities like Detroit boomed across the upper Midwest, and spurred the growth of an interdependent network of small and medium-sized factory towns sprinkled liberally amidst the region’s cornfields and forests. A highly integrated supply chain grew, making everything from cars to chemicals, dishwashers to tooling dyes, cereal and steel. Industry advancement stretched from Minnesota and Iowa in the West, across the Great Lakes through western New York, and into Pennsylvania and the “Chemical Valley” and coalfields of West Virginia in the East. But when new global competitors, technological change and automation led to dramatic restructuring of the region’s heavy industry, it obliterated a huge number of good-paying assembly line jobs, and shuttered employers in the Rust Belt’s company towns. In so many once-thriving communities, young people have fled, and the residents who do remain have grown frustrated over diminished job prospects, and are anxious about the future. The very same anger and anxiety that found an outlet at the ballot box in 2016.

[Demsrule86]

14. Minnesota did not give Trump his win...this is about preventing an

Electoral College win for Trump.

[pnwmom]

15. We only lost by 80K votes and we have Democratic governors now.

It's sexist to say no woman could win those states in a fair election, especially a woman from the upper midwest.

[Demsrule86]

31. It is not sexist. I want a woman but do not believe given the nature of this

election, one can win. I also believe Hillary lost partly because she was a woman.

[pnwmom]

35. SHE WON BY 2.9 MILLION VOTES.

No President in HISTORY had ever lost the electoral college with a margin like that, including Al Gore -- whose margin was a half a million votes.

And yet some Democrats act like SHE failed, instead of our election system.

[Demsrule86]

37. She was the best candidate in my lifetime. But she did not win

the electoral college. And I do not believe our current women nominees can win. They are not winning the primary. And none can win the three states we need. And we will have those who won't vote for them too.

[pnwmom]

40. You have no evidence that Biden would have won in 2016. He could have lost

some of the states Hillary won. He's sure he would have done better but that's his ego talking -- he has no evidence. And there is no reason to think that Russia wouldn't have interfered in a 2016 Biden/Trump election -- because they wanted Trump. And no reason to think Biden also wouldn't have been hurt by the same types of voter suppression (new Voter ID laws, etc.) that drove down Hillary's vote. The Supreme Court dismantled the Voting Rights Act in 2013, after Obama's re-election. That would have hurt ANY Democrat.

Biden as hero is just wishful thinking. He dropped out of the first Presidential run after the stories of plagiarism, and he dropped out after his second run when he drew 5th place in Iowa.

The rankings of our current candidates right now are meaningless. At this point in the last election, Trump only had 1%. None of these polls measure anything except name recognition at this point, and Sanders and Biden have the most, for obvious reasons. Jeb Bush was way ahead at this point in 2015 because of his name recognition. But it didn't carry him through the election.

[Demsrule86]

42. You have no evidence that he wouldn't have won either. I showed you why he could win but

You dislike him. And that is that. Biden can win the three states we must win to prevent Trump' reelection. And with exception of Ryan maybe , no one else can in my opinion. I have looked at the electoral map...I don't think we win if we don't win these states. The idea that anyone can beat Trump is wrong. He has a good chance of winning. We are in the fight of our lives....if we lose the, consequences are dire.

All this talk of past elections is meaningless. We are dealing with Trump. Like it or not two candidates look like they could win the primary. Sanders who will lose a general badly and Biden who has a chance to win. And if people are successful in destroying Biden in order to run their perfect but doomed candidate in terms of the general, than we lose. This is not a moment for our progressive hero to step up and save us from Trump. Midterms clearly show that moderates gave us the house and unless we run a candidate perceived as a moderate ( Joe is not really a moderate) by the voters, we will lose. The electoral map is what it is.

[pnwmom]

45. It's not a matter of disliking him. It's just not believing that he's the only candidate

who can beat Trump. And for the record, I have zero interest in Sanders. I just don't believe they're our only choices. I've seen too many dark horses come from behind to think that we're stuck with this pair holding the lead no matter what.

Biden would have faced the same voter suppression Hillary did in the three states, and the same opposition from Trump. If we can get more people registered and with proper ID's hopefully we can get higher numbers this time. But that would be true for anyone running there.

[thesquanderer]

49. re: "none can win the three states we need'

Most recent polling shows Warren beating Trump in all three of those states.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/general_election/

[Demsrule86]

52. I don't buy that he will destroy Warren as a socialist among other things.

I looked at all the polls...no way Warren is going to win a primary...she might not even take Massachusetts.

[thesquanderer]

55. Those polls also show Harris and Klobuchar as competitive in these states

and the question wasn't whether they could win the primary, but rather, if they somehow did, could they beat Trump in those states. Of course it's early, but polls don't show these female candidates as likely to cost us those states.

[DoctorJoJo]

17. And Not Only Men--I Have Several Female Friends Who Won't Support a Female POTUS

[Demsrule86]

19. This is true also. It makes me angry and sad but we have to get Trump out.

[StarfishSaver]

23. "I don't have a problem with a woman president. I just don't think it should be THIS woman."

How many times ...

[Demsrule86]

32. It is true. We have to get rid of Trump.

[thesquanderer]

48. How many times? Well, so far, the line's only been used about HRC. (nt)

[pnwmom]

46. There have ALWAYS been women who were sexists. That's nothing new. n/t

[tymorial]

3. They said the same thing in 07

[Demsrule86]

8. They did...it was a different time and Romney had a history of destroying jobs

In the midwest particularly Ohio. Things are way more polarized now.

[shanny]

30. tRump doesn't?

He ran to Hillary's left last time. Yes, we all knew he was lying, but I bet at least some of those 8 million Obama-to-Trump voters just took a flyer on him. Show them something better (and different than the status quo ante imo) and they will come back.

It can't just be about tRump, it has to be about improving people's lives in a material way (not just getting along with each other).

[Demsrule86]

33. Not like Romney.

[shanny]

34. Then hang that label on him.

He certainly deserves it.

[Demsrule86]

38. We have a shot with Biden in Ohio.

[Demsrule86]

43. He does deserve it. But you won't be able to.

[treestar]

24. A man is still a man

And Hillary just lost last time.

[elleng]

4. right

[spooky3]

7. I really don't "get" saying he is "the one" who can win.

It implies a stereotypical view of the people in several midwestern states.

I believe that if (a) Comey's actions had been different; (b) the media had treated the candidates more similarly (there is empirical evidence online documenting the breaks given to Trump); (c) Russian interference would not have occurred and (d) HRC had spent more time in a few key states rather than elsewhere, she would have won all of them.

In 2020, (a) won't be a factor. Re: (b), I'm concerned there still is sexism in media coverage, though maybe it will be a bit less this time around. Re: (c), this will be a problem for ANY Democratic candidate this campaign, and re: (d), candidates will have learned to spend more time in these states and not assume that the blue wall will hold.

So, candidates other than white males may still be at a disadvantage, but there is no evidence that Biden is the only candidate who can win.

[Demsrule86]

10. Trump will win if he takes three states...MI, WI and PA. Biden is the best candidate

To stop him.

[spooky3]

28. You have no evidence of that (nobody does at this stage). That is my point.

I provided reasons why I don't agree.

[Demsrule86]

29. Evidence of what that is how Trump wins or that Biden can take the states.

Biden was born on PA.

[Demsrule86]

44. Running a candidate that you admit will be at a disadvantage is madness.

Trump needs to go. How about we pick a candidate who can win.

[robbedvoter]

18. you know the Russians have been n all 50 states

accessing voting rolls, right? They-re still here

[Demsrule86]

25. And that means we have to over perform...close elections are easy to steal. Joe is still the one.

[Indygram]

5. The only people insisting that a woman or minority HAS to be nominated

without regard to who is best able to beat Trump must not care if he is re-elected.

Democrats need to nominee whoever is the best person to win, period.

[Demsrule86]

11. Exactly...getting rid of Trump is what matters.

[Thekaspervote]

16. FYI: Hillary Clinton said herself she believes that Americans are not ready for a woman president

[robbedvoter]

20. Nice of Biden to help with that

🙄 Building a lot of good will here.

[Demsrule86]

26. What did Biden do?

[StarfishSaver]

21. When/where did she say that?

[Laelth]

58. I never heard her say that. n/t

-Laelth

[StarfishSaver]

59. Seems like no one did

[pnwmom]

22. I can't seem to find such a quote. Do you have a link?

[pnwmom]

47. I can't find such a quote. Do you have a link? nt

[Kurt V.]

27. nah. It's about (legit) fear, anger. not a good position. imo

[qwlauren35]

36. I completely disagree.

Up until 2008, black people voted for white people in the General Election. We did not "stay home". We had no choice. There were no black candidates. We're used to it. And we still vote.

Lots of black people will vote for white candidates. Lots of white people will NOT vote for black candidates. Why on earth do people pretend that this isn't a reality.

We have been saying over and over and over that America is racist. It's been obvious for the last 3 years.

Now, let's talk about women. A huge percentage of white women voted for Trump. Not the woman candidate. There was no loyalty, no solidarity. Up until 2016, women have voted for men in the General Election. We did not have a choice. There were no women candidates. We're used to it. And we still vote.

Lots of women will vote for male candidates. Lots of men will NOT vote for women candidates. Why on earth do people pretende that this isn't a reality.

Trump has proven that America is sexist. It's been obvious for the last 3 years.


Black women are the backbone of the Democratic party. Historically, we have been willing to vote for white men. Most of us are issues based in the primaries and party based in the General Election. Kamala Harris cannot count on our vote.

Independents win elections. And many of them are conservative. There is no guarantee that they will vote for a woman. There is no guarantee that they will vote for a minority. There is no guarantee that they will vote for a gay man. The easiest way to force them to look at the issues is to pit white man vs. white man.

I refuse to campaign in the primaries. There's too much going on in my life, and no one has excited me. I will vote for the Democrat in the General Election. No matter what race, no matter what gender, no matter what orientation. I have an "Anyone But Trump" mentality.

It actually infuriates me that there are people who want to pretend that America is not racist or sexist given what has occurred over the last 3 years. The black candidate has to be PHENOMENAL to win. That's just reality. The woman candidate has to be PHENOMENAL to win. That's just reality.

Obama was PHENOMENAL. Charismatic, energetic, honest, a little naive, earnest, and came in with ideas. PLUS Bush had just plummeted the country into a depression and people didn't want another Republican. In contrast, Trump is a sitting president, and the economy is strong. Only a PHENOMENAL candidate will unseat him.

I think Biden has a shot. I don't think anyone else does.

[Demsrule86]

39. Well said. I agree with you. I thought When Obama was elected and Clinton won the primary we

had turned a corner. It breaks my heart to realize that we didn't. I just want Trump out. It will not be easy either despite what people think.

[Honeycombe8]

41. It's not the gender or the race these days, I think. It's the person.

There are just so many more white males in politics, that the pool of women and minorities is so small in comparison (even though it's larger than ever before).

So getting the diamond that shines is harder to do in the female or minority categories.

In this day and age, we expect the candidates to be tv stars, too. So that's hard. I like Klobuchar, but she doesn't have a real chance, I think. So far.

The ones that people are rallying behind are, so far, white males. But I don't know that it's because they're white males. Two of them have an advantage in that they've been around so long that they have national name recognition.

[qwlauren35]

50. I have re-thought this.

It's partially true.

People in the Democratic Party may vote their heart. And in their heart, a woman or minority might make the best president.

But I'm for electability, and who NON-DEMOCRATS will vote for. I know that MANY, MANY people do not vote based on issues. They vote on hearsay, they vote on looks, they vote on what others tell them to, they vote on sound bites from the media, they vote on campaign slogans.

I am dumbfounded that DUers don't know this or respect it. The states we have to win are states where people do not necessarily vote on issues, or where their issues are different from those of many candidates. States that don't care about women, minorities, LGBTQ. States that don't care about college costs. States that don't care about climate change or renewable energy. States that don't care about pollution in water and air or in general about the environment. States that care about abortion/pro-life candidates. States that care about the economy. States that care about the influx of immigrants and its PERCEIVED effect on tax dollars and jobs. People who can be influenced to be afraid of immigrant terrorists.

Winning Democrats in the primaries does not win the nation in the General Election. I want a Democrat who can win in the general election. In a strong economy against a sitting president. In the General Election, the Democrat will be running on the Democratic platform and on charisma. Who can do that best? That's who I want to win.

If it takes a white male, then fine. If the polls of Independents and non-Democrats show that a woman or a minority is showing as electable against Trump then give them a chance. But beating Trump is my goal. I am starting to lean toward Biden.

[FM123]

51. They can insist all they want.

It is impossible, until it is done.

[demmiblue]

53. Hmm... I can only see about 10 responses in this thread. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. That's not true

A lot of voters will vote for someone in the general who they think will lose.

[Laelth]

56. I wonder if this isn't a bit of a straw-man argument.

As far as I know, nobody is arguing that a woman or a minority CAN'T become President. Barack Obama proves this belief is untrue. What I see happening, on the other hand, is a serious debate about who is MOST LIKELY to become President, and we're having this discussion because we all want to insure that a Democrat (any Democrat) is elected in 2020.



-Laelth

[beachbum bob]

57. I'm laughing at this statement