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renie408

(9,854 posts)
Sun Aug 26, 2012, 08:48 AM Aug 2012

So proud of this response to a Romney supporting friend of mine.... [View all]

I have a friend that I have been going back and forth about over this election for weeks on Facebook. He is my farrier and we have developed this weird thing where face to face we talk about everything under the sun BUT politics and on Facebook just about the only thing we talk about is politics. The distance of Facebook has allowed us to stay friends and business associates while arguing like crazy every day about politics.

We segued into a talk about the fall of Rome and a patriarchal society that hoards resources and strangles the lower classes. Another friend had jumped in and said, "Yep, that's pretty much what happened." To which my farrier responded "So, we just tax the rich bastards??"

Here is my response:

"Pretty much. I know that to some people it feels like that is penalizing 'them' for being successful, but that is a knee jerk, immediate reaction to something that is much more complex.

Some of the complexities involved are the fact they we cannot make an endless supply of money so that everybody can have some without reducing the worth of that money. Again, HELLO...Argentina. So, if the wealthy earn interest and dividends on their money and investments, they continue to sop up more and more of a finite resource. In any repetitive mathematical equation, you hit a tipping point. There is a parable about the Pasha of India wanting to reward the creator of the game of chess because he thought it was the most wondrous game he had ever played. He asked the man what he wanted for a reward and the man said, "My request is that you would give me one grain of rice for the first square on the board, two for the second, four for the third, and so on." The Pasha thought this sounded very modest and instantly agreed. The problem is that if you double the amount of rice for each square on the board, by time you get to the last square you have a pile of rice BIGGER THAN MT EVEREST. And the amount doesn't start to get freaky enormous or a problem until about the second half of the board. At the end of the first half of the board, you are talking about a large amount (I think I have heard it compared to several dump trucks worth). But into the second 32 doublings, that amount starts to get increasingly enormous increasingly quickly.

Same thing goes with the money that the wealthy are hoarding. They didn't start out holding 87.7% of all the wealth in the country. But since their money makes money, they have continued to get wealthier and wealthier even while we have been going downhill. And we are starting to hit the second half of the chess board. They have SO MUCH of the wealth and their wealth is earning SO MUCH of a return that every year they are soaking up an exponentially larger amount of that available resource. Bryan, if the top 20% of people were holding 87.7% of the food available and asking 80% of the people in this country to live off of 13.3% of the food, you would be the first in line with your pitchfork and torch. And we would go in there and TAKE BACK some of our food. You wouldn't sit around waiting for them to hand you the food, you wouldn't rely on them doing the right thing with the food and sharing it and you sure as hell wouldn't vote to give them MORE FOOD on the off chance that some how some of it would trickle back down to you.

The uber wealthy in this country have managed to take 2.7% MORE of the wealth in this country since 2007. While the middle class has basically fallen and can't get up, they have gotten phenomenally wealthier. Trust me, 2.7% of the wealth of this entire country is A LOT of land, money, and tangible assets. And we don't have it any more and they do. And you are waiting around for them to produce more jobs with that money so that some of it can come back to us. And while in some people's minds that makes sense, in THIRTY YEARS it has never happened. Since we have lowered what the top bracket pays in taxes, the middle class has steadily lost ground to that thin layer of upper class. There are no more jobs. There is nothing coming back to us. With our vast voting power we gave them that money thinking that they would invest it in economic growth and instead they have sat on it and allowed it to earn them interest. Which sucks up more money, which earns more interest and soon there isn't going to be enough left over to even HAVE a viable middle class.

And I don't blame them. I might do the same thing. Not because I would want to hurt the people below me, but because it is human nature to hold on to what is yours. But whether somebody runs you over by accident or on purpose, you are still dead. I think the huge thing that people have lost over the years is that the government isn't separate from us. It IS us. You have this idea that the government is some big, looming bad thing. I don't think it is. It is the tool that we have been given to insure the best lives we can have for ourselves. We cannot storm the halls of the wealthy with pitchforks and torches in this day and age. But we can use the tool the Founding Fathers gave us and take back something for ourselves. And that is why I vote the way I vote. Period. Not because I like or dislike a candidate, not because of some hot button social issue that gets my dander up...but on which candidate I think will give MY KIDS their best shot at having a decent life. Not the perfect candidate; there is no such thing. No one can satisfy everyone all of the time. But the candidate who at least recognizes that giving the wealthy more and more money isn't helping me one bit. "

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Nicely done. Thanks for posting. Scuba Aug 2012 #1
Thanks! renie408 Aug 2012 #2
I read a historian did a survey of Rome to calculate the wealth gap because it was a major roguevalley Aug 2012 #50
It's cheesy to kick your own thread, but I am excited about this because... renie408 Aug 2012 #3
Well, I'm a cheesy person anyway, so Jackpine Radical Aug 2012 #11
Thanks this cleans up my tongue wagging lol Heather MC Aug 2012 #49
Your parable about the Pasha hit it perfectly. n/t tech3149 Aug 2012 #4
I heard it on NPR the other day about technological advances and it struck me that it renie408 Aug 2012 #5
K&R nt avebury Aug 2012 #6
Beautiful. drm604 Aug 2012 #7
Sure! That's why I shared it. renie408 Aug 2012 #9
Just out of curiosity, what is his argument for the GOP? Does he actually believe in coalition_unwilling Aug 2012 #14
He believes that he is worse off now than he was four years ago. Period. renie408 Aug 2012 #15
Just Yesterday- Same argument Zoonart Aug 2012 #18
When they are old and in need of care remember how they treated you Kyad06 Aug 2012 #31
Boy can I relate to your situtation.... Yooperman Aug 2012 #54
Your friend sounds like someone who has to work for a living and whom the coalition_unwilling Aug 2012 #21
Exactly. renie408 Aug 2012 #33
Well spoken! Ferretherder Aug 2012 #8
You might remind them that... sofa king Aug 2012 #10
I have tried for weeks to both link higher taxes to renie408 Aug 2012 #13
Maybe another way to put it is... sofa king Aug 2012 #16
K&R! smirkymonkey Aug 2012 #12
wow heaven05 Aug 2012 #17
K&R&B pamela Aug 2012 #19
How quickly this scenario will play out if Rmoney and repigs get elected this round nightscanner59 Aug 2012 #20
Nice-- but to put very succintly, if you hoard cats or newspapers NoMoreWarNow Aug 2012 #22
Spot on... Smilo Aug 2012 #35
You should publish this Richard D Aug 2012 #23
^^^ EXCELLENT IDEA ^^^ Care Acutely Aug 2012 #57
HUGE rec and kick. And please send this to Rachel Maddow. Zoeisright Aug 2012 #24
And Lawrence O'Donnell Casandia Aug 2012 #59
love this, great arguments I intend to steal. Fair use and all. n/t Hamlette Aug 2012 #25
Growing richer simply for having wealth, without actually producing or providing any thing, is... NYC_SKP Aug 2012 #26
love it... things need to be explained gently and in simple terms for our right sided friends.... trailmonkee Aug 2012 #27
..about the Pasha parable... ewagner Aug 2012 #28
I was using it more for the math involved...something can start out small renie408 Aug 2012 #29
I know ewagner Aug 2012 #38
Great! Send it to Paul Krugman and see what he says!? DippyDem Aug 2012 #30
Excellent, excellent response. valerief Aug 2012 #32
Give yourself a hearty pat on the back. asjr Aug 2012 #34
WOW! You are rightfully proud of that. beac Aug 2012 #36
Absolutely superb! SnowCritter Aug 2012 #37
Another thing that needs to be pointed out GETPLANING Aug 2012 #39
renie, would you mind if I post some of this to my Facebook page? kag Aug 2012 #40
Please, I would be proud! renie408 Aug 2012 #41
renie, I have published a brief excerpt to my blog page. mac56 Aug 2012 #61
This is the first thread I've ever bookmarked... Moonwalk Aug 2012 #42
Awesomeness. Hope it enlightens a few people. freshwest Aug 2012 #43
That's great! You should write an editorial Aeroette Aug 2012 #44
Kudos for arguing with your farrier. I would not have the guts AllyCat Aug 2012 #45
K&R (n/t) a2liberal Aug 2012 #46
very, very good Angry Dragon Aug 2012 #47
well done handmade34 Aug 2012 #48
I like this very much, because you are explaining something that a lot of people don't understand. patrice Aug 2012 #51
Excellent! You explained one part of the problem very very well.. cudos! Yooperman Aug 2012 #52
It is a lot more than 2.7% if you go back to 1980 when things started getting out of whack indie9197 Aug 2012 #53
Good, but long. I have something way shorter eridani Aug 2012 #55
Yeah, that's pretty much how I started out... renie408 Aug 2012 #62
You mean he just ignored you when you said "Why is investment punishment?" eridani Aug 2012 #63
He seemed to consider the long version. renie408 Aug 2012 #64
An exception to the rule. It's good that at least some of them are rational n/t eridani Aug 2012 #65
Very nice! Le Taz Hot Aug 2012 #56
Kick. Such a brilliant argument. :) NT Grown2Hate Aug 2012 #58
Great argument. You all might like "Progress and Poverty" by Henry George. reformist2 Aug 2012 #60
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