Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
General Discussion
In reply to the discussion: Trump is telling aides he will 'sue' Democrats if they pursue impeachment: report [View all]StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)21. Dershowitz's argument is pure bullshit
And the deceptive smoke and mirrors "justification" he used proves he knows that.
The Professor Dershowitz of days gone by would have flunked a law student who used such raggedy reasoning on one of his law school exams. I miss that guy.
First, he suggests that Justices Breyer and Souter said that a president can appeal an impeachment to the Supreme Court, quoting them supposedly making this argument as if it this claim has some legal merit.
However, not only do neither of the quotes he relies upon have any binding legal authority, they both concern conviction and removal by the Senate, not impeachment. (Dershowitz, unsurprisingly, muddled his argument and conveniently edited Justice Souter's quote, probably in order to confuse the issue). Moreover, he conveniently edits one of the quotes to better suit his purpose.
Justice White's quote came in a footnote to his concurrence in U.S. v. Nixon (1974), so it has no legal significance or precedential value. Neither does Justice's Souter's comment, which he made in his concurrence in Nixon v. U.S. (1993) (a different Nixon, an impeached judge, not Richard). His full quote is: "If the Senate were to act in a manner seriously threatening the integrity of its results, convicting, say, upon a coin toss, or upon a summary determination that an officer of the United States was simply " `a bad guy,' " judicial interference might well be appropriate. In such circumstances, the Senate's action might be so far beyond the scope of its constitutional authority, and the consequent impact on the Republic so great, as to merit a judicial response despite the prudential concerns that would ordinarily counsel silence."
Neither of these comments have the force of law and neither of these Justices is currently on the Supreme Court (White is deceased, Souter is retired). But more important, these comments refer not to impeachment, but to trial and conviction, In this instance, it is very unlikely that the Republican Senate would convict Trump at all, much less do so on a buggaboo.
Trump didn't threaten to appeal conviction and removal. He said he would appeal impeachment. Nothing in Dershowitz's tortured and misleading argument supports his claim that an impeachment can be appealed - (he also doesn't offer any valid legal basis for claiming a conviction and removal can be appealed, either - footnotes in concurrences aren't law).
In other words, once again, Dershowitz is full of shit.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=12163296
However, not only do neither of the quotes he relies upon have any binding legal authority, they both concern conviction and removal by the Senate, not impeachment. (Dershowitz, unsurprisingly, muddled his argument and conveniently edited Justice Souter's quote, probably in order to confuse the issue). Moreover, he conveniently edits one of the quotes to better suit his purpose.
"Two former, well-respected justices of the Supreme Court first suggested that the judiciary may indeed have a role in reining in Congress were it to exceed its constitutional authority. Justice Byron White, a John F. Kennedy appointee, put it this way: Finally, as applied to the special case of the President, the majority argument merely points out that, were the Senate to convict the President without any kind of trial, a Constitutional crisis might well result. It hardly follows that the Court ought to refrain from upholding the Constitution in all impeachment cases. Nor does it follow that, in cases of presidential impeachment, the Justices ought to abandon their constitutional responsibility because the Senate has precipitated a crisis.
Justice David Souter, a George H. W. Bush appointee, echoed his predecessor: If the Senate were to act in a manner seriously threatening the integrity of its results judicial interference might well be appropriate.
Justice David Souter, a George H. W. Bush appointee, echoed his predecessor: If the Senate were to act in a manner seriously threatening the integrity of its results judicial interference might well be appropriate.
Justice White's quote came in a footnote to his concurrence in U.S. v. Nixon (1974), so it has no legal significance or precedential value. Neither does Justice's Souter's comment, which he made in his concurrence in Nixon v. U.S. (1993) (a different Nixon, an impeached judge, not Richard). His full quote is: "If the Senate were to act in a manner seriously threatening the integrity of its results, convicting, say, upon a coin toss, or upon a summary determination that an officer of the United States was simply " `a bad guy,' " judicial interference might well be appropriate. In such circumstances, the Senate's action might be so far beyond the scope of its constitutional authority, and the consequent impact on the Republic so great, as to merit a judicial response despite the prudential concerns that would ordinarily counsel silence."
Neither of these comments have the force of law and neither of these Justices is currently on the Supreme Court (White is deceased, Souter is retired). But more important, these comments refer not to impeachment, but to trial and conviction, In this instance, it is very unlikely that the Republican Senate would convict Trump at all, much less do so on a buggaboo.
Trump didn't threaten to appeal conviction and removal. He said he would appeal impeachment. Nothing in Dershowitz's tortured and misleading argument supports his claim that an impeachment can be appealed - (he also doesn't offer any valid legal basis for claiming a conviction and removal can be appealed, either - footnotes in concurrences aren't law).
In other words, once again, Dershowitz is full of shit.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=12163296
Edit history
Please sign in to view edit histories.
54 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
RecommendedHighlight replies with 5 or more recommendations
Trump is telling aides he will 'sue' Democrats if they pursue impeachment: report [View all]
Gothmog
Jun 2019
OP
Dersh-bag did say something along these idiotic lines, but Trump has, of course, expanded it beyond
hlthe2b
Jun 2019
#3
wow if hes resorting to this, then his bag of distractions is pretty slim pickins....
samnsara
Jun 2019
#5
Another day, another dangling of a shiny object in the faces of deplorables.
KY_EnviroGuy
Jun 2019
#8
Yes, at BEST they are dicta. But they don't even apply to impeachment in the House
StarfishSaver
Jun 2019
#25
It would be up to the full court to decide whether to take the case and it's highly unlikely
StarfishSaver
Jun 2019
#33
The irony is that now that he's become the most powerful man on earth, he now has less power to use
StarfishSaver
Jun 2019
#27
Good point and I think a very valid one, and one that rump is discovering that threatening...
SWBTATTReg
Jun 2019
#28
I think this idiocy shows how frightened he is. No lawyer of any repute would file such an action.
Shrike47
Jun 2019
#30
Yeah just like he was going to appeal impeachment to the Supreme Court
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
Jun 2019
#48