Tim Wise: Race-Talk is a Language White Folks Need to Learn

[WhiskeyGrinder]

72. .

Defeating racism by using racism causes unnecessary conflict.

Talking about the social construct of race and acknowledging how culture is based is not racism. It's also not conflict, but it might *feel* like it, because it's uncomfortable, mainly for white people, which is the point of this OP.

Using "white" and "black" isn't actually solving the problem or even defining it because we as humans are MORE than our race and NEED to SEE that to get BEYOND racism.

White supremacy is built on whiteness, so talking about "white" and "black" is definitely necessary to solve the problem.

IN THERAPY people will be told that having a Black and White viewpoint will prevent one's ability to see ANY of the grey or colors in between that represent actual solutions.

Okay.

What I would PERSONALLY like to see is a "continuum of racist to non-racist behaviors". I suppose I will need to create it myself as it's so "different" a type of thinking that most people will not have any idea of what I mean.

Making racist actions "colorblind" does what all colorblindness does: Ignores the power that the social construct of race has and does nothing to dismantle it. It also ignores that we live in a white supremacy.

WHAT DOES A PERFECTLY NON-RACIST PERSON LOOK LIKE and HOW DO WE SEE OURSELVES and RATE OUR PROGRESS if we DON'T KNOW WHAT THE NEXT LOGICAL STEP IS?

It's not about being a "perfectly nonracist person" or even "rating progress." In fact, working on yourself as a person is only half the work. The rest of it has to be working with others to dismantle the system.

THAT WAY we could look to make continuous improvement toward the ideals that are being requested without being penalized for not knowing what we don't know.

This makes it sound like there's some kind of AntiRacism Inc. that is "requesting" you to know things and "penalizing" you when you don't. It may feel like a "penalty" when you get feedback, but that's just the self-defense talking: "I'm a good person! I'm not racist! You're judging me! If you won't tell me how to do it 'right' I won't do it at all!"

You say that the Founding Fathers were "White Supremacists" but

(1) That wasn't even a definition at the time.

Okay. "Feminist" wasn't either, and people call Jane Addams one all the time.

(2) What I can see is that they were a bunch of white folk looking for freedom from other white folk and they DID NOT AGREE on the issue of SLAVERY.

And...they built the founding documents of this nation on white supremacy.

(3) There is documented history of the Founding Fathers making an effort to deal with their OPPOSING VIEWS on slavery ****

And then built the documents of this nation on white supremacy.

(4) They knew what they did would need to grow and they put in the means to make those changes by making it a LIVING DOCUMENT and putting "All men were created equal" and not putting actual "slavery" into the Constitution because THEN as NOW there were OPPOSING VIEWS, but not a full solution.

White supremacy is about more than slavery, and eliminating slavery does not eliminate white supremacy.

The Founding Fathers did not work tirelessly against slavery, but would not "validate it" in the Constitution. AND there have been multiple times it was argued and addressed legally even before the Civil War.

"Not validating" slavery in the constitution is a pretty low bar for recognition.

As a white person living "in the system" I have done all I can to research what is wrong with it and needs to be changed, but if I don't understand specifically what I am looking for it can be hard to find as the system doesn't WANT to be changed.

You're right, systems resist change. But there's no changing a white supremacist system. For me, one great example is our criminal justice system. Law enforcement in this country has its roots in private groups that would protect property, state officials finding people fleeing slavery, and pogroms against immigrants (in some cases racialized) and political radicals. We know nonwhite people are stopped and arrested disproportionately, face disproportionate police violence, get harder sentences and get less of a chance at parole/cash bail. We have seen over the past few decades that "stop focusing on nonwhite people so much" is not an effective reform, because the purpose of white supremacy is absolutely focusing on nonwhite people to keep them marginalized. This system cannot be reformed.

I have been raped as a child by both white and black,

I am sorry.

"THE BAD THINGS PEOPLE DO IS ON THEM, NOT THEIR RACE." Race isn't an excuse for bad behavior, but it doesn't cause them either.

This is indisputable. Observing that white people are not great about talking about race is not saying they do a bad thing.

As a white person who stands up for equality among whites and blacks, I get verbal slap downs from both sides. I am simply looking for a way to be helpful without all the slapping.

One of the most important things white people should realize when it comes to dismantling racist systems is that there is going to be a lot of feedback and sometimes it will feel like slapping. After all, we're *really trying,* so why are people hurting our feelings? Why don't people want our help? And as I said before, white people absolutely must be ready to be uncomfortable while doing this work. It's emotional! It's hard! People's feelings will be hurt! But we must keep on -- and if we wait for everyone to be comfortable at every step, the work won't get done.

And THANK YOU for actually giving me some actual answers. I am sorry it was such an effort.

No apologies necessary.

Why move toward balance first? To find out what works and keep pushing that.

Like support black owned or women owned businesses brings them into the system as valid replacements without destroying everything else and promoting laws that make it illegal to discriminate gives people and businesses a chance to change versus just destroying the system indiscriminately so there is "payback" for 400 plus years of pain.

But...we have Black- and women-owned businesses now that are thriving, and we have anti-discrimination laws, and we still have white supremacy. When does the "balance" start working? Balance is not justice.

I GUESS MY BIGGEST QUESTION IS:
ARE WE PROMOTING EQUALITY FOR ALL or looking to "get back" at the current white population for everything that has gone before? I AM ALL FOR EQUALITY FOR ALL and anyway I can help. BUT IF I HAVE TO "understand" that "talking about 'white people' isn't supposed/intended to be offensive because it's the 'WAY' black people talk about racism...... I CAN BELIEVE there isn't the "intention" to be offensive.

Many Black people have a "way" about talking about racism that is different than how white people talk about racism because Black people have to navigate and live with it differently than white people do. It's not offensive to acknowledge that. It's also not offensive to say, "It would be great if white people could talk about racism with the same honestly that Black people do, even though that honest conversation might have some uncomfortable moments of self-discovery and defensiveness."