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In reply to the discussion: Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy believed President Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy. [View all]Octafish
(55,745 posts)252. Lisa Pease at ACORN, The Legacy of Penn Jones, Jr.
First off: Thanks for the heads-up on the WaPo's, eh, ignorance of matters of the national security state. Corporate McPravda do have their priorities.
Second: Lisa Pease really is someone special. Here's an archive of her work at a site from Akron:
http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/
For those attempting forensic history, it's like being there 20 years ago.
The Legacy of Penn Jones, Jr.
by David Welsh
The "Sleuths"
Anyone can write to the Government Printing Office and, for $76, order the 26 volumes of testimony and exhibits. Hundreds of Americans, nagged by doubts about the completeness of the investigation, did just that. For a surprisingly large number of people, reading the volumes, establishing card files and interviewing witnesses became an all-consuming avocation. Working in virtual isolation from each other, methodically recompiling the evidence, it was only gradually that these amateur "sleuths" learned of one another's existence.
In time there developed a network of Kennedy assassination buffs, linked coast-to-coast by a bush telegraph of manifold ramifications. When one uncovered a startling new piece of evidence, the information spread like fire through plains grass until, before the week was out, it was common knowledge among all the operatives of this private intelligence apparat.
Some, like New York author Sylvia Meagher or Marjorie Deschamps, a west coast housewife, scholars of the Warren Report and 26 volumes, can quote chapter and verse on almost any facet of the case. Mrs. Meagher, finding the Commission's index next to useless, prepared and published her own. Mrs. Deschamps put together a hundred giant "panoplies"---photostats of collectged evidence---on different facets of the case. The "sleuth" ranks include salesman Ray Marcus; David Lifton, a master's candidate in engineering; and housewife Elizabeth Stoneborough---all serious students of the photographic evidence relating to the assassination. Paul Hoch dug into the National Archives for hidden documents. Philadelphia lawyer Vincent Salandria did pioneer research on the ballistics and autopsy evidence; writer Harold Feldman on the direction of shots. Add to them the book-writers---Mark Lane, the most persistence public gadfly of the Warren Commission; Harold Weisberg, a Maryland gentleman farmer; and Leo Sauvage, the conservative US correspondent for Le Figaro---and you have an awesome army of private citizens who are saying more or less explicitly: "The government lied to us about the Kennedy assassination."
Few of the sleuths are paid for their efforts, or reimbursed for long-distance phone calls, travel and research materials. Motivated by anything from an affection for President Kennedy to a plain zeal for truth, affiliated only in the most informal way, they are the embodiment of what is finest in the American tradition, and a living indictment of government-by-closed-shop.
At first we [at Ramparts] refused to take the sleuths seriously. Everyone secretly wants to be a detective. Here was the "crime of the century," apparently unsolved, with a mountain of poorly evaluated evidence at the disposal of anyone willing to shell out 76 bills. To the private sleuths it was irresistible; to us it was something of a joke. Then we reviewed their work and realized that they were doing the job the Dallas police, the FBI and the Warren Commission should have done in the first place.
And if many will treat these amateur investigators as some unique breed of kook, the Dallas police take them seriously. When Shirley Martin, a housewife from Hominy, Oklahoma, made trips to Dallas to interview witnesses, the police would tail her, openly following her car at short distance, and stay in her shadow until she left town. The FBI takes one of the "sleuths" seriously enough to tap his phone. Two San Francisco sleuths report that even their mail is habitually opened before it reaches their door. Such intimidation has become so common that the sleuths hardly talk about it any more.
On our trips to Dallas, Bill Turner, I, and editor Stan Sheinbaum interviewed many persons touched in some way by the killing of Kennedy. Some were willing to talk freely; most were guarded. Many said there was no conspiracy to assassinate the President, but almost invariably they would indicate that they thought otherwise: a playful smile, a wink, a sardonic turn around the corners of the mouth. Others treated the Warren Report with open contempt.
CONTINUED...
http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/09th_Issue/ramparts.html
Lastly: Yeah. Crimes of the national security state are difficult matters for some to contemplate, but they are not co-incidences.
It's like Jeff says, "What you don't know can't hurt them." And, thus, the point of the professionals.
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Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy believed President Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy. [View all]
Octafish
Jan 2013
OP
That's incorrect. The CIA and Curtis LeMay did him in. The Mafia cleaned up the "problems"
Zen Democrat
Jan 2013
#53
Seems the Attorney General of the US & the President's closest advisor was the one doing that.
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#189
Rather be called 'paranoid' than side with liars and the traitors they protect.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#84
"Sprague... wanted complete information about the CIA's operation in Mexico City..."
MinM
Jan 2013
#193
If, as I suspect the CIA knew what went on in Mexico City, I can see why the CIA demanded
happyslug
Jan 2013
#232
CIA assigned 1963 Oswald minder George Joannides the 1977 job of liaison with HSCA.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#250
One of the Problems with the JFK assassination is the sheer number of people CYAing themselves
happyslug
Jan 2013
#229
the kennedys are conspiracy theorists now? seems like rfk, both as us AG & kennedy admin
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#190
there's no contradiction at all. sorry you don't see it. rfk had connections he could work after
HiPointDem
Jan 2013
#324
'You can't be a Democrat and you can't be a liberal if you don't believe there was a conspiracy"
zappaman
Jan 2013
#441
You are pointless. What is the point of this post? Back up you own crap before you ask anyone else
lonestarnot
Jan 2013
#180
The Bubble Top Wasn't Bulletproof. So what does it matter if JFK or someone else
stopbush
Jan 2013
#290
The bubble top was ordered off the limo by Kenneth O'Donnell, one of JFK's top aides
stopbush
Jan 2013
#475
That picture means absolutely nothing when it comes to protecting JFK that day.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#668
I didn't know registering as a Democrat required me to join Lee Harvey's defense team.
nyquil_man
Jan 2013
#608
RFK was not interested in reopening the investigation into his brother's death.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#350
Sen. Kennedy's children went public with their father's conclusion of conspiracy.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#538
And yet, RFK conducted his own INDEPENDENT investigation of the numerous JFK CTs AT THE TIME
stopbush
Jan 2013
#547
"It demonstrates that RFK?" You know, these aren't FACTS that we're talking about here.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#658
It implies no such thing. The fact that the Washington Post called these aides the Irish Mafia
stopbush
Jan 2013
#667
So, you're suggesting that people who DO know their history should walk on eggs
stopbush
Jan 2013
#670
I'm complaining about the use of the word "mafia" not the use of "Irish"...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#684
Are you effing kidding us? Madeline Brown? You're actually putting that NUT forward
stopbush
Jan 2013
#696
Once again you misconstrue what I have said, and then elaborate endlessly on your own...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#697
What does any of that matter? LBJ wasn't at that party to say what he didn't say
stopbush
Jan 2013
#703
The only "issue" about Murchison is whether M Brown was lying about the party.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#706
'Breach of Trust' by Gerald D. McKnight spells out how the Warren Commission failed the nation.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#16
Reclaiming History by Vincent Bugliosi spells out how the Warren Commission got it right.
zappaman
Jan 2013
#19
Because that picture shows the base of a bullet, zappaman, and adds nothing to understanding.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#49
This is the bullet that left significantmetal in Connally's body that was never removed? Yeah right.
Zen Democrat
Jan 2013
#60
'Significant' as the mass of material in Connally's wrist is greater than what's missing from CE399.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#196
Since you continually cite evidence related to Neutron Activation analysis...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#376
For the sake of your argument, I'll stipulate that we set aside the NAA done to CE399.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#391
The weight of fragments removed from Gov. Connally are not known, Spider Jerusalem.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#272
Got a link or source that documents the weight of the fragments from Gov. Connally?
Octafish
Jan 2013
#274
Drs. Finck, Humes & Shaw testified more fragments found in Connally’s wrist than missing from CE 399
Octafish
Jan 2013
#378
You are SO far behind the curve in the evidence that has been added over the decades
stopbush
Jan 2013
#52
For information, read James DOUGLASS. You write about allegation paraded as reality, stopbush.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#63
Unlike you refusing to read Bugliosi or the WCR, I've actually read most of "JFK&TU" by Douglass.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#73
The only reason to keep on trying is in order for those of us who care about Democracy win.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#172
I finished the Bugliosi book proper (not the supplemental end notes) about
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#67
There were and are strong arguments that the facts of the case did not merit a military trial.
nyquil_man
Jan 2013
#597
So, it's a stretch to think that Oswald killed JFk as a simple act of self aggrandizement,
stopbush
Jan 2013
#549
None of that is objective proof. This person said this, that person said that, etc.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#289
AND YET - the HSCA and the WCR found NO involvement of the mob or the Cubans.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#310
BTW - let me know if you have problems with the following, which I would call objective proof:
stopbush
Jan 2013
#292
OMFG! Are you kidding me? This is like textbook erroneous info about the killing!
stopbush
Jan 2013
#305
Reading through the comments made by witnesses to the autopsy, they seem contradictory...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#330
What do O'Neill and Silbert have to do with the experts who examined the skull fragments?
stopbush
Jan 2013
#382
So, it sounds like you're willing to set aside NAA analysis as providing valid evidence....
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#396
The fact that CE399 was proved to have been fired from Oswald's rifle coupled with the lead
stopbush
Jan 2013
#429
Well, you've got me wondering if any newer scientific processes have been developed
stopbush
Jan 2013
#432
Very few of them were physicians, very few of them saw the wounds up close...
Spider Jerusalem
Jan 2013
#413
Time will tell if more truth will come out about RFK's beliefs at the time...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#453
The context of this thread hinges on the veracity of what RFK, Jr. is telling us...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#461
RFK Jr lost a lot of credibility with me when he went off on his anti-vac jag.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#465
I couldn't disagree more with your extremely biased assessment of the WC's goals.
stopbush
Feb 2013
#746
This isn't about the FBI, it's about EVERY BIT OF EVIDENCE AND ANALYSIS, EVER.
Spider Jerusalem
Jan 2013
#450
I see you are back to focusing on the first bullet that went into JFK's back...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#519
You are clearly a crank, and there is no point in continuing this discussion
Spider Jerusalem
Jan 2013
#520
All the "conclusions" you cite in your post are faulty in and of themselves...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#617
If nothing else, AntiFascist's postings of WCR info prove that the WCR was no whitewash.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#541
No. There have been conspiracies that have led to successful assassinations of world leaders.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#575
Guiteau said in court that he admitted to the shooting but denied the killing.
nyquil_man
Jan 2013
#595
I wonder why you're not willing to apply the same conspiracy-oriented speculation
nyquil_man
Jan 2013
#600
And you contend that Lee Harvey Oswald *may* have been just shooting out the window to scare JFK.
nyquil_man
Jan 2013
#603
I never pretended to know precisely what Oswald may or may not have been up to...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#605
In which case he could have still been involved with a conspiracy....already pointed out n/t
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#612
Obviously I do have problems with the single bullet theory no matter how it is construed...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#665
I will hand it to you for having a name but: At what point does he kill the President?
nyquil_man
Jan 2013
#675
I think you've overstated both the HSCA's conclusions and what they were looking at...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#719
Well put. Thank you for your many correctives to AF's CT fantasies in this thread.
stopbush
Feb 2013
#724
Exactly. I don't know why the CTists don't realize that all they're doing is speculating.
stopbush
Feb 2013
#732
You have plenty of criticisms for the "official" version, but you have no valid alternative.
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#748
I'm not saying you're convinced you can provide evidence. I'm saying you have no evidence.
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#754
Not so much evidence AGAINST Oswald as much as evidence related to how he was handled...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#755
The theory does not depend on the number of shooters or the precise role Oswald played if any...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#758
See? You're willing to say that Oswald was deeply involved with the government,
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#764
I think you are veering far from the question of whether or not there was a conspiracy...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#765
You seem to ignore my point that RFK himself was playing along with this...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#777
I see. So the Warren Commission was right not to explore all avenues in this case?
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#782
Ok, so given that the Warren Commission may have acted PURELY in the interests of national security.
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#784
The files would indicate Oswald's connections to anti-Castro CI programs...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#799
CE-399 bothers me primarilly because the FBI lied in its memo to the Warren Commission...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#803
CE-399 bothers you because you don't want Oswald to be tied to any shooting.
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#804
What's Oswald doing with Guy Bannister and anti-Castro groups if he's more of a leftist?
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#814
I see. So you don't think potential ties to segregationist groups should have been explored?
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#816
Katzenbach's memo makes clear that he was concerned about RUMORS AND SPECULATION.
nyquil_man
Mar 2013
#834
Katzenbach had taken over for Robert Kennedy, who was still in mourning...
AntiFascist
Mar 2013
#835
You're much more interested in exploring the historical/geopolitical aspects of the assassination
nyquil_man
Mar 2013
#838
What do you think of the story told by Dallas County Deputy Sherrif Roger Craig?
AntiFascist
Mar 2013
#839
Craig is basically saying there that 1. There were people doing suspicious things
nyquil_man
Mar 2013
#840
Come up with some actual evidence, AntiFascist, and you'll have my full attention.
nyquil_man
Mar 2013
#833
Your desire for perfect evidence seems to vanish when it comes to naming another shooter.
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#805
Okay. How much of the evidence cited by the WC and HSCA would you like to toss out?
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#778
Since both the WC and the HSCA turned a blind eye toward General Walker...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#771
They didn't turn a blind eye toward Oswald's attempt to assassinate Walker.
nyquil_man
Feb 2013
#774
Another reason Oswald was such a central person of interest to the CI division...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#756
The talk of "Mafia dons and CIA spooks" also occured during the Church and the HSCA investigations..
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#727
What's new is the evolution of thought, particularly on the role played by the CIA...
AntiFascist
Feb 2013
#733
Oswald admired the Cuban revolution and Castro's leadership of it. Oswald
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#258
Interesting he left the money on his wife's dresser before going off to shoot JFK.
zappaman
Jan 2013
#261
The whole thing infuses me with such immense sadness, both for JFK and his
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#262
Even Marina Oswald was kept in the dark about much related to her husband...
AntiFascist
Jan 2013
#264
"There is a ton of evidence to implicate Lee Harvey Oswald as the sole..."
MrMickeysMom
Jan 2013
#185
The only bullets recovered from the scene were proven definitively
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#257
It's often said that it is difficult if not impossible to 'prove a negative'. IOW, in
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#278
"I hate to tell you how many of those witnesses were not interviewed by the commission'
zappaman
Jan 2013
#401
Jim Marrs helped keep the researchers going when all the pressure was on to shut them down.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#418
Isn't "Crossfire" the Marrs book where his main eye/earwitness to the JFK shooting
stopbush
Jan 2013
#454
Which book informed you that Oswald's body "spent 3-4 days lying in a mortuary?"
stopbush
Jan 2013
#451
We get it. Bugliosi is tired. The WCR is tired. The HSCA is tired. The evidence is tired.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#347
You've never read the WCR, so how would you know whether or not it makes sense?
stopbush
Jan 2013
#511
All one needs know: For it to work, the Warren report REQUIRES a Magic Bullet.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#560
We may never know the names of the trigger men, but we know who has benefited most over 49 years.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#85
We already know the truth, but overwhelming evidence apparently isn't enough for some.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#133
I thought they just said they didn't believe what the Warren Report said about...
Little Star
Jan 2013
#11
The family must have the strongest of hearts to carry the burden of what they know.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#387
Yep. The "4th shot" crap has been conclusively falsified, not that the CTists give a damn.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#31
G. Robert Blakey has stated that if the dictabelt "evidence" of a 4th shot could be falsified
stopbush
Jan 2013
#35
When DoJ changed bosses from Carter to Reagan, the HSCA request fell by the wayside.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#115
Is it true that John Kennedy was moving toward a National Bank of the U.S.A.? nt
patrice
Jan 2013
#27
The Federal Reserve? could print money back then? I'll have to look into that. It creates money as
patrice
Jan 2013
#51
Thank you very much for the links, Octafish! I will read and share this important information. :-))
patrice
Jan 2013
#246
He was Attorney General for almost the entire duration of the WC investigation.
nyquil_man
Jan 2013
#33
What makes you the overnight authority on what happened in Dallas? Or why RFK was killed?
nyquil_man
Jan 2013
#46
Rory was in the womb when RFK was killed. Her information had to come from Ethel.
Zen Democrat
Jan 2013
#61
Vince PALAMARA: CIA Director told RFK 'there were two people involved in the shooting.'
Octafish
Jan 2013
#435
Like when stealing an election, an assassination is conducted to change policy.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#103
Please point out what is false. In fact, GOOGLE 'Octafish + BFEE' and find something that's false.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#111
Provides a cooling off period for his 'w' and 'o' keys. Factory recommended. Nt.
Mc Mike
Jan 2013
#214
If there's nothing to what RFK, Jr. and Rory said, why the virulent outcry on DU and in debunkerdom?
Octafish
Jan 2013
#112
President Gerald Ford played a large role in foisting the lone nut fiction upon the United States.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#134
So, are you adding Gerald Ford to your list of those who helped kill or cover up?
zappaman
Jan 2013
#136
Show me even one post where you've expressed criticism of George Walker Bush on DU, zappaman...
Octafish
Jan 2013
#154
Ha! Amazing! According to Octafish, everybody in the world had a hand in killing JFK!
stopbush
Jan 2013
#287
I cannot fathom why a DUer would oppose discussion of conspiracy in the death of JFK.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#148
Octafish ... have you wrote a book on this stuff yet? What's taking so long ???
doublethink
Jan 2013
#174
While I agree that a significant majority of Americans now reject the WC findings, it simply
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#297
Then what you claim must have happened in just the first couple of minutes after the report came out
MadHound
Jan 2013
#317
Have you read Bugliosi's book yet? He clearly and coherently explains
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#323
I am somewhat hobbled currently, as I checked Bugliosi's book out of the
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#333
Republican Senator (and physician) Bill Frist, who famously diagnosed Terry Schiavo as still
coalition_unwilling
Jan 2013
#338
Er, it was the base of CE399 - not the bullet's nose - that hit Connally's wrist.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#344
The "offset" between JFK and Connally is CLEARLY visible in the picture you provided.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#335
The common theme of their foolishness is to get you to spend time refuting their idiocy, MadHound.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#343
''We had been operating a damned Murder Inc. in the Caribbean.'' -- Lyndon B. Johnson
Octafish
Jan 2013
#244
It's no lie, stopbush. The hairpin turn was the ambush location in both cases.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#357
Thanks. My mistake. BTW: The word didn't change anything that mattered in my post.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#366
That's a very interesting photograph. I hadn't seen it. Here's a video from Frontline which...
Poll_Blind
Feb 2013
#824
If the Secret Service planned that turn they were criminally negligent or part of the plot.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#420
What links? You don't answer who OK'd the route to include the 120-degree turn, stopbush.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#440
But I did answer it. It's all contained in the WCR testimony, which I provided.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#445
Thanks. So, Secret Service Special Agent Forrest V. Sorrels approved the route and hairpin turn.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#460
Does it bother you when people ask you if you've stopped beating your wife, zappaman?
Octafish
Jan 2013
#500
First you called me a 'Sandy Hook denier,' stopbush, and now its 'climate change denier.'
Octafish
Jan 2013
#381
Because you are so obviously anti-science when it comes to the evidence in this case.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#384
Here's something scientific: Secret Service agent Abraham BOLDEN railroaded for telling the truth.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#415
Bolden may have been trained in forensic science, but the story you related about him
stopbush
Jan 2013
#421
Your "expert" Pat Speer at least has the decency to provide Dale Myers rebuttal to his claims,
stopbush
Jan 2013
#550
Then-CIA man James Wilcott testified to Congress that Oswald was a CIA employee.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#372
The guy was in Mexico City, apparently on US government business, so it is hard to tell.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#414
I had heard pieces of the CIA-mafia stuff before, but never put it together in such a straight line
yurbud
Jan 2013
#403
You continue the smear, zappaman. Do you think I'd post about Dallas on DU for 12 years?
Octafish
Jan 2013
#510
Don't you know why it matters whether President Kennedy had been killed by a conspiracy?
Octafish
Jan 2013
#509
Unicorns? Almost as asinine as believing NAZIs had nothing to do with post-war US history.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#543
Other side of the coin: and if it could ever be proved to your satisfaction that Oswald acted alone,
stopbush
Jan 2013
#542
Yeah. When Attorney General Kennedy thinks conspiracy, however, I'm inclined to believe him.
Octafish
Jan 2013
#581
And if Attorney General Kennedy had thought no conspiracy, you'd have smeared him like you smear me.
Bolo Boffin
Jan 2013
#585
Yes, that is indeed my question. How does Octafish rate his disruption be tolerated?
Bolo Boffin
Jan 2013
#635
How many people are posting in this thread? How many clicking up and down to read the replies?
Bolo Boffin
Jan 2013
#650
You don't know Oswald's role? Simple - he was the killer. He acted on his own.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#591
What's interesting to me is when foreign leaders are killed, the first thoughts of the....
OldDem2012
Feb 2013
#796
The biggest flaw in the Warren Commission was that it never asked the question
dflprincess
Feb 2013
#801
Amazing the lengths (stupidities?) the CTists will go to when the facts upset their apple cart.
stopbush
Jan 2013
#661
Recommended and bookmarked. Great to see you "stir the shitstorm", Octafish!
robertpaulsen
Jan 2013
#692
I'll cross post this here... 50 reasons to continue to question after 50 years...
MrMickeysMom
Feb 2013
#760
Three tiny little video snippets which I thought painted a fascinating picture:
Poll_Blind
Feb 2013
#828