General Discussion

Zorra

(27,670 posts)

117. Are you opposed to non-Islamic governments and the UN pressuring Islamist

Thu Apr 11, 2013, 08:13 PM

Apr 2013

Religion States to allow more rights and freedoms for women? Or do you consider that a violation of the agency of Muslim Women as well?

Women’s and Girls’ Rights
http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-saudi-arabia
The Saudi guardianship system continues to treat women as minors. Under this discriminatory system, girls and women of all ages are forbidden from traveling, studying, or working without permission from their male guardians. In 2009 the Ministry of Commerce, though not other ministries, stopped requiring women to conduct ministerial business through a male representative.

On September 25 King Abdullah announced that women will be able to vote in municipal elections in 2015. The government continued to exclude women as voters or candidates in the September 2011 municipal elections, despite a two-year delay to allow for logistical preparations to include women. In March 2011 women activists launched the Baladi (My Country) campaign in protest, trying—unsuccessfully—to register to vote. In the first municipal elections in 2005, authorities said that election workers could not verify a woman’s identity since many did not have identity cards. However, the Interior Ministry began issuing identity cards to women over 22 years old in 2000. The king also promised to appoint women as full members of the Shura Council.

On May 22, Saudi authorities arrested Manal al-Sharif after she defied the kingdom’s de facto ban on women driving. Al-Sharif appeared in a video showing herself behind the wheel. Prosecutors charged her with “tarnishing the kingdom’s reputation abroad” and “stirring up public opinion,” according to Saudi press reports. On May 30, Khobar police released al-Sharif from prison after she appealed to King Abdullah.

On June 17 around 40 women with international drivers’ licenses participated in a “women2drive” campaign. No law bars women from driving, but senior government clerics have ruled against the practice. Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world t

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FEMEN Protests: Nobody Asked This Group to Speak For Oppressed Muslim Women [View all] Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 OP

I guess anybody who is going to protest something Trajan Apr 2013 #1

Two things: 1. This protest is not in the US. 2. No one is saying they can't protest. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #4

You said it yourself in your OP. You are telling them how and where they can protest. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #9

No, I didn't say anything in my OP. I posted an article. Maybe you should read before commenting. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #10

If you post an OP with a specific opinion and include no commentary saying you disagree, its a fair stevenleser Apr 2013 #12

So unless I say I disagree, you assume I've written the article. Right...makes perfect sense. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #15

No, I would never assume you wrote the article. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #17

"You said it yourself in your OP." - You assumed exactly that. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #19

No, I didnt. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #20

by Hannah Kapp-Klote "it’s just colonialism" Coyotl Apr 2013 #2

White European hijacking of Muslim women identity is in fact a form of colonialism. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #3

Good thing noone is doing that then. Coyotl Apr 2013 #5

Actually FEMEN is doing exactly that. Assuming the identity of Muslim women. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #6

No, they are not. See my #7 below. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #8

Yes they are. Protesting in France as if someone is oppressing them... Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #14

Your characterization is ridiculous. This exception is only for women's rights it seems. stevenleser Apr 2013 #16

Actually, all of those protests are problematic for similar reasons. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #18

Your new ridiculous protest rules aside, Femen has local branches doing what the locals want to do. stevenleser Apr 2013 #21

Please tell me you're not a journalist. She was not kidnapped nor interned. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #24

Your information is wrong. I spoke directly to the person who was talking to her. stevenleser Apr 2013 #26

No, my information is right. As shown below. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #37

We'll see what she says when she is no longer in Tunisia. I trust my source who you will hear stevenleser Apr 2013 #58

You are once again removing her agency. Her word can't be trusted in it's current capacity, right? Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #62

When her life is threatened you mean? How many facts do you intend to ignore here? nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #69

Your assumption is that she would lie when her life is threatened. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #71

I make no assumptions either way. You assume she is telling the truth. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #73

And you assume she is lying. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #79

No, I said let's see what she said when she is no longer in Tunisia. Try some reading comp maybe? stevenleser Apr 2013 #86

In her current capacity she states: “I have fear for my life and the life of my family,” idwiyo Apr 2013 #194

Steven, can you post a link to that interview and when its going to air? I'm very interested riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #93

Sure thing. There will be a link by midday on Saturday. But you can always see my shows by... stevenleser Apr 2013 #108

you mean the internet blogger with ties to Freedom House? Maybe you don't want to go there HiPointDem Apr 2013 #123

Amina, herself, does not make the claim that she was thrown into a psych hospital. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #36

This kind of demonstrates just how disconnected FEMEN is from the woman. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #39

No, that is your biased opinion. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #60

Are you speaking as ONE Muslim woman? etherealtruth Apr 2013 #44

I am not a Muslim woman. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #50

You have a large number of Muslim women within your social circles ... etherealtruth Apr 2013 #55

That established, you don't seem to have a problem with speaking for them. idwiyo Apr 2013 #160

Perhaps, but that is not what Femen is doing. stevenleser Apr 2013 #7

Agreed. Looking forward to your interview. Coyotl Apr 2013 #187

I think everyone will be surprised by just how sharp Inna Shevchenko is, particularly her detractors stevenleser Apr 2013 #192

You forgot a thinly veiled accusation that she is paid by someone else to do what she does idwiyo Apr 2013 #201

I've seen some of that, and uglier versions of it where the person or persons are Ukranian "Jew(s)" stevenleser Apr 2013 #202

I hope not on DU. REALLY hope not here. Definitely wouldn't be surprised if you saw it on the Web. idwiyo Apr 2013 #203

No, not here on DU. At least not yet. Many Youtube videos showing Femen protests have comments that stevenleser Apr 2013 #204

Yeah, most of them definitely are coming from Eastern Europe and Russia in particular. idwiyo Apr 2013 #205

One arab woman is baring her breasts. Tens of thousands of arab women are out protesting HiPointDem Apr 2013 #124

FEMEN speaks for me! Let my manly chest be seen! randome Apr 2013 #11

I'm glad they offended some people, at least. Quantess Apr 2013 #13

Yup. HappyMe Apr 2013 #22

+1 idwiyo Apr 2013 #118

I was under the impression Amina did ask LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #23

What has FEMEN accomplished besides gaining attention for FEMEN? Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #25

Is that any of your business unless you're Muslim? randome Apr 2013 #28

It is the business of the Muslim women who are against FEMEN. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #31

But the business of Muslim women is none of your business. randome Apr 2013 #40

They likely do not want nor need my help. I am here attempting to express that point. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #45

And that person is making clear how ridiculous that position is. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #72

Why didn't you ask Shevchenko about this statement? Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #83

I talked to her about that and more. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #87

And what did she say? Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #90

I'm guessing he wants you to listen to his show. I've asked for a link to date and time above nt riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #94

So he's just here to plug his radio show. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #97

Oh yeah right, like Steve hasn't offered up many points of discussion with you OUTSIDE his show riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #100

That person illustrates their intellectual dishonesty over and over again. stevenleser Apr 2013 #175

Are you a Muslim woman? LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #41

I am not a Muslim woman. Nor do I claim to represent the interests of Muslim women. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #43

Then why did you make this thread? LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #46

Because I believe FEMEN is a deceptive, neo-colonial organization. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #47

But you can't make that determination, see LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #51

Amina has become a chess piece to FEMEN. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #59

Amina IS Femen. She started Femen Tunisia. You have it backwards. Here is a link stevenleser Apr 2013 #61

I already know all of that. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #65

You act as if you dont. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #66

LOL. RainDog Apr 2013 #76

I believe the same thing about Gravitycollapse. randome Apr 2013 #52

But Amina is Muslim and belongs to FEMEN. You appear to be offering up a conundrum. riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #57

There is no evidence that Amina is Muslim. Her participation in FEMEN demonstrates just the opposite Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #159

So now you are just making shit up. That's fucked up. riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #164

Why would a Muslim participate in a group that is anti-Islam? Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #170

Why not? I can think about a number of reason why. One of them could be a sincere belief that idwiyo Apr 2013 #176

You might be interested in listening to Ms. Toad Apr 2013 #225

Thank you, its a good interview. There is defintely an urgent need for more scholars idwiyo Apr 2013 #228

I'm less familiar with UK quakers than US Friends. Ms. Toad Apr 2013 #229

Correction: Amina doesn't fit into YOUR definition of "Muslim". You will need to ask HER how she idwiyo Apr 2013 #168

You are absolutely correct. We cannot know for sure until she answers that question. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #169

Didn't stop you from making statements that she is NOT Muslim. Care to retract them or at least idwiyo Apr 2013 #171

I will make the correction that there is no evidence that she is Muslim. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #174

There is no evidence she isn't. She doesn't fit into your definition of who is and isn't Muslim. idwiyo Apr 2013 #177

The irony here is of course that you and others assume she is Muslim because of where she lives. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #178

Mine actually. I am not even sure what your assumptions are based on. idwiyo Apr 2013 #182

To add to your list, Opus Dei vs. very liberal Catholics stevenleser Apr 2013 #189

My point exactly. Never mind that at least some Muslim Scholars will insist that she is a Muslim idwiyo Apr 2013 #190

What about the Muslim women supporting the groups actions? etherealtruth Apr 2013 #74

And of course your response got... stevenleser Apr 2013 #191

You see the response you got, an immediate moving of the goalposts and shifting of the argument. stevenleser Apr 2013 #27

Some would say it's FEMEN, because boobs R B Garr Apr 2013 #193

She didn't ask because nobody in FEMEN had talked to her... Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #48

1) IIRC she posted the original photos on the advice of FEMEN LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #56

Not only that, Amina created Femen Tunisia. It's her organization. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #63

Yeah, but... zappaman Apr 2013 #68

Exactly. We have two folks posting under this OP who are impossibly biased because of boobs. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #70

OP had a whole subthread full of boob/sexuality woo LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #80

SSDD, indeed. zappaman Apr 2013 #98

Just try finding a post of mine that said she is in no danger. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #75

Your support is somewhat qualified LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #85

I have also never railed against her methods. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #95

Mmm-hmm LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #107

Definition of rail: To express objections or criticisms in bitter, harsh, or abusive language Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #148

And you got a game-playing response. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #180

*shrug* LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #185

Nobody asked Abolitionsists to speak for slaves in the Americas either. Zorra Apr 2013 #29

Exactly. The argument is an unconscionable one. You cannot protest wrongdoing elsewhere or else be stevenleser Apr 2013 #30

You just completely disassociated Muslim women from their agency. Congrats. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #32

The Handmaid's Tale ~ Zorra Apr 2013 #49

Atwood's novel is a reductio ad absurdum to prove a point. It is not an instructional piece. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #53

Are you Muslim? nt Zorra Apr 2013 #115

No, I'm a Pantheist. Why? Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #116

Because you seem so adamantly opposed to non-Islamic organizations in other countries Zorra Apr 2013 #121

Islamic state ≠ Islam. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #122

So weird. So an anti-apartheid group in the US was a problem protesting for South Africans? riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #128

Yep, that person advocates ethical segregation. It's a screwed up belief system. stevenleser Apr 2013 #181

You are yet to prove that they are in fact speaking FOR Muslim women. idwiyo Apr 2013 #197

Are you opposed to non-Islamic governments and the UN pressuring Islamist Zorra Apr 2013 #117

Your subject line is oxymoronical. "To prove a point" makes it instructional. Zorra Apr 2013 #209

No you have. Muslim FEMEN protesters ring a bell? Amina? Aliaa? You saying they're doing it "wrong"? riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #67

Their own protests are not wrong. FEMEN exploitation is wrong. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #77

From your own OP, they were protesting in solidarity which you say is okay! riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #82

Why the hell were they protesting outside of Mosques? Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #84

Now you're putting parameters on WHERE women can protest??!! Really?! riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #91

I'm not telling them where they can or cannot protest. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #92

So patriarchal Islamic oppression of women isn't what Amina was protesting, and FEMEN in solidarity? riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #99

So you're argument is that all Mosques, Imams and followers are responsible for the oppression. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #103

No! Its about going to a place that will generate maximum exposure for ANY protest riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #110

So in your mind, nobody is allowed to protest anything unless they belong to the aggrieved group? riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #78

At the very least, pro-Palestine protests argue for Palestinian agency. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #81

Nice. Picking and choosing WHICH demonstrations are okay for me to protest at. Palestinian okay! riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #88

Nope, you completely misunderstood my point. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #89

Some Muslim women certainly are suffering. polly7 Apr 2013 #101

Reread what I wrote. I'm talking about the outside chapters of FEMEN. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #104

Ack ... you're right, I read that too fast, sorry. polly7 Apr 2013 #106

FEMEN is anti-religion. How could they speak for Muslim women? Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #109

They're speaking for 'women', who are oppressed because of religion. polly7 Apr 2013 #111

Their stated objective is to help "liberate" women from Islam... Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #112

I believe a lot of Americans need to be liberated from the Southern Baptist Church riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #114

Gotcha. So Gravitycollapse's Guide to Proper Ladylike Protests means riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #105

It really is an incredibly sinister, patronizing, flirting-with-racist argument, isn't it? DirkGently Apr 2013 #127

Yup, it really is. Disgusting actually. I note Gravitycollapse evades coming back riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #145

lol. morningfog Apr 2013 #154

Snap! Apophis Apr 2013 #54

What a joke RainDog Apr 2013 #33

I'm not prepared to take someone seriously who uses terms like "homo guys" or "homo females." Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #34

I was using corresponding adj. het/homo RainDog Apr 2013 #35

Your rhetoric is telling. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #38

LOL RainDog Apr 2013 #42

Yawn. Speaking up against oppression will always piss a few people off. polly7 Apr 2013 #64

Your protest of the protests has succeeded in uniting many DUers who often... randome Apr 2013 #96

So what. No one ever asks me anything either. Prism Apr 2013 #102

This thread is ridiculous. MadrasT Apr 2013 #113

+10000 trumad Apr 2013 #119

Another article written by another "naked titties and public nudity is BAD and oppressive" person. idwiyo Apr 2013 #120

Vladmir agrees with you. kwassa Apr 2013 #138

Not sure what it is you are trying to say. Do tell. idwiyo Apr 2013 #162

Vladimir Putin enjoys Femen protest against him. kwassa Apr 2013 #186

And then promptly had his government request the harshest punishments for them. stevenleser Apr 2013 #195

And where is your evidence that ..... kwassa Apr 2013 #206

Tons of news reports. Google is your friend stevenleser Apr 2013 #207

Tons? Oh my! kwassa Apr 2013 #208

Your link has nothing to do with my contention or the point which is that Putin/Russia wanted stevenleser Apr 2013 #210

So what? They get a minor fine. Big deal. Putin has no say. kwassa Apr 2013 #211

And now you are once again all over the place with no point. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #214

Kind of difficult for him to see her back when she is facing him, no? How do you know what he thinks idwiyo Apr 2013 #196

Her protest has no usefulness. If Putin can ignore it either way, it has no point. kwassa Apr 2013 #212

You are entitled to your oppinion. I beleive FEMEN accomplished exactly what they planned to do. idwiyo Apr 2013 #213

If you really want a laugh, take a look at the back and forth just upthread. She not only moved the stevenleser Apr 2013 #215

Thanks, almost missed that part. That's hilarious! idwiyo Apr 2013 #216

When I want a laugh, I read your notes. kwassa Apr 2013 #218

LOL! Back from throwing those goalposts away? nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #220

Perfect. No wonder. cali Apr 2013 #232

Femen planned to look silly? They did accompliish that. kwassa Apr 2013 #217

They looked silly? You just cant help yourself but try to put those women down. In any way possible. idwiyo Apr 2013 #219

I am only saying what many are saying on DU. Many you argue with. kwassa Apr 2013 #221

OK, if you are not motivated by "anti-nude sentiments" than what is your beef with FEMEN? idwiyo Apr 2013 #222

Their form of protest is regressive, in my opinion. kwassa Apr 2013 #223

Obviously we disagree. I don't like sweeping statements like "their method does damage to women's idwiyo Apr 2013 #227

I think it does apply to you, and this is where we disagree. kwassa Apr 2013 #231

Sooo ... "They're right, but they should shut up because something something neocolonial?" DirkGently Apr 2013 #125

That's not a tortured argument. The history of white people appointing themselves moral authority Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #126

How are you wriggling around the fact that Amina Tyler is Tunisian, again? DirkGently Apr 2013 #129

I'm not protesting against Amina. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #130

Are you protesting boobs? Quantess Apr 2013 #131

What? What part of my argument in this thread revolves around breasts? Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #133

Come on, just admit it. Quantess Apr 2013 #134

Admit what? Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #137

Admitting that you are trolling might be a good start. Quantess Apr 2013 #172

But you are, and the rest of the Muslim FEMEN members riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #132

Are there Muslim FEMEN members? Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #136

Yes. Amina and Aliaa that we know of. Who else is on the rolls I don't know riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #142

Aliaa is not Muslim. She is a secularist. There is no evidence that Amina is Muslim. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #144

Uhm, an Islamic cleric has put out a fatwa against Amina so clearly they believe riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #149

I don't think you know what a fatwa is. Regardless, neither of those women are Muslim. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #151

Prove it. Please provide proof for Amina (for example). riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #156

It's difficult to prove a negative. There is no evidence that Amina is Muslim. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #158

Okay so you are just making shit up. Good night. nt riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #161

Do you believe non-christian women should be allowed to protest octothorpe Apr 2013 #163

Of course NOT! They will be oppressing Christian women who can speak for themselves! idwiyo Apr 2013 #199

Why is this such a big deal? Deep13 Apr 2013 #135

This FEMEN protest and systemic oppression are the same thing. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #139

That is a ludicrous statement. Who are protesters "oppressing?" DirkGently Apr 2013 #140

The very women they claim to be speaking for. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #141

Thats so crazy its insane! Some of the protesters are Muslim! riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #143

Which FEMEN members are Muslim? I know of none. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #146

Answered in 149 and we don't know whose exactly on FEMEN's rolls riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #153

Aliaa is not Muslim. She is a secularist. There is no evidence that Amina is Muslim. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #155

That's a bullshit statement and not supported by any FACTS whatsoever. riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #166

FEMEN is an expressly anti-religious organization. So it's fair game... Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #173

Why would that matter either way? octothorpe Apr 2013 #167

Nice of you to impose your male western-oriented patriarchal definition of who is and isn't idwiyo Apr 2013 #157

You cannot "oppress" someone by speaking out. DirkGently Apr 2013 #147

You don't think language has an oppressive capacity? Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #150

There's that tortured logic again. DirkGently Apr 2013 #165

Exactly. Tortured logic is a good phrase for it. stevenleser Apr 2013 #179

There is a vibrant feminist movement in Tunisia, of which some members have been threatened with Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #183

FEMEN is actually anti-porn and anti-prostitution industry. idwiyo Apr 2013 #198

No, you are misreading it. Deep13 Apr 2013 #184

Yes. nt Zorra Apr 2013 #200

ROFLMAO Coyotl Apr 2013 #188

Go FEMEN! They speak for themselves. morningfog Apr 2013 #152

Post removed Post removed Apr 2013 #224

They volunteered. Deep13 Apr 2013 #226

Islam's own Phyllis Schlaflys. backscatter712 Apr 2013 #230