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Common Sense Party

(14,139 posts)

103. Absolutely, and if something can't be discussed politely, I'd rather not discuss it at all.

Reply to Catherina (Reply #99)

Tue Mar 18, 2014, 10:46 PM

Mar 2014

I'll try to read the info at the link when I have more time.

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If I lived in Crimea, I would have voted to leave the Ukraine and join Russia. [View all] reformist2 Mar 2014 OP

So does that mean you think that the secession of the Confederacy was justified, then? Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #1

Do you think the Declaration of Independence was an illegal document? reformist2 Mar 2014 #7

Apples and oranges. The Colonies did not have representation in the Monarchy of Britain berni_mccoy Mar 2014 #9

Was the secession of Kosovo legal? former9thward Mar 2014 #45

Right, Crimea was autonomous. They voted for what a majority of the people wanted, and that should sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #163

Much better question, thank you. Answer, to the British Empire it was a treasonous document. sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #81

There's a pretty fundamental difference between the Confederacy and Crimea. Xithras Mar 2014 #21

You do realize that your are making the OPs point, do you? redgreenandblue Mar 2014 #88

The way I look on it dipsydoodle Mar 2014 #2

And the flip of that is their imports of energy JustAnotherGen Mar 2014 #126

Pipe dream. dipsydoodle Mar 2014 #127

Oh I would agree JustAnotherGen Mar 2014 #128

There have been various counties in the U.S. Jenoch Mar 2014 #3

Actually, I do. 2banon Mar 2014 #14

Like the great state of Jefferson? Anansi1171 Mar 2014 #38

Huh? This isn't what I've suggested! 2banon Mar 2014 #70

Yes, it IS what you've suggested. And the fact that you can't see it doesn't speak too well of you, MADem Mar 2014 #152

...and the Russian troops were there to protect the integrity of the vote? brooklynite Mar 2014 #4

LOL Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #8

Do you seriously believe the vote doesn't reflect popular sentiment in Crimea? Comrade Grumpy Mar 2014 #36

Do we have reason to believe that it does? Proud Liberal Dem Mar 2014 #58

There are these opinions.. I posted this last night on someone's thread spouting Putin Cha Mar 2014 #107

COOKIES! MNBrewer Mar 2014 #5

And in the future if they decide it's a mistake and want Crimean independence... Bosonic Mar 2014 #6

Try pulling out of the EU. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #50

Are you imprisoned if you suggest it? Bosonic Mar 2014 #53

Not so far as I know, but give them time. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #57

So your point was ? Bosonic Mar 2014 #59

likely that its sort of like a roach motel Bodhi BloodWave Mar 2014 #108

Are the rumours that the IMF was going to demand strict austerity measures for the Ukraine true? djean111 Mar 2014 #10

Yes there are. 840high Mar 2014 #11

Yes, and the "going to" part is actually already obsolete. nt Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #26

Not rumors. Yanukovich implemented some IMF Austerity and the Ukrainians revolted Catherina Mar 2014 #42

So - the Ukrainians are just supposed to shut up and eat their peas? djean111 Mar 2014 #49

Yes. Shut up and eat your peas. Donetsk is rising up to secede now too. Catherina Mar 2014 #62

Trying to see how that would work. Donetsk appears to be a city, within an eastern region 2banon Mar 2014 #84

The entire Donetsk "Oblast," or District/Province, would probably vote to secede. reformist2 Mar 2014 #87

Thanks, does the arrow illustrate the "Oblast" (assuming that translates to "region/province) eom 2banon Mar 2014 #93

Your guess is as good as their's. Catherina Mar 2014 #101

Donetsk has a 50% ethnic Ukranian population. joshcryer Mar 2014 #117

Interesting... thanks for the link.. 2banon Mar 2014 #72

Great question. You made me remember how many of the neocons & friends profited from Iraq. Big time. reformist2 Mar 2014 #92

No investigations, that I'm aware of. apart from that dog and pony show of a congressional hearing 2banon Mar 2014 #94

The NeoCons have already moved on Poland in this regards go west young man Mar 2014 #105

Spot On, Well Done! 2banon Mar 2014 #109

I'd have done the same. For double-triple the retirement and a lower LittleBlue Mar 2014 #12

You must be straight joeglow3 Mar 2014 #25

For some, that's what it all boils down to. nt oldhippie Mar 2014 #34

Yes, I'm straight LittleBlue Mar 2014 #35

I think it is clear you have no clue how gays are treated in Russia joeglow3 Mar 2014 #39

If you think they're treated better in Ukraine, MattSh Mar 2014 #46

Saying that doesn't make it true joeglow3 Mar 2014 #74

Well looky here. I've got a link too. MattSh Mar 2014 #130

And you might want to look at the replies that blew the shit out of your link joeglow3 Mar 2014 #137

Because he has a clear animosity towards Ukrainians, apparently. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #142

as part of the EU, they'd have to treat them better CreekDog Apr 2014 #172

So better to fuck over everyone instead? LittleBlue Mar 2014 #48

You tell me how Russia is better for them joeglow3 Mar 2014 #73

They'll have more economic opportunity LittleBlue Mar 2014 #78

So, they may have more money when they are arrested or beaten to death for being gay joeglow3 Mar 2014 #85

As far as LGBT rights are concerned, it's a no-win situation. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #114

The Maidain protests had LGBT. joshcryer Mar 2014 #116

The Maidan protests also had people that want to kill LGBT simply for existing. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #119

I think they wanted away from Russian influence. joshcryer Mar 2014 #120

I agree that that was probably the primary motivation of all protesters of all political stripes. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #121

The EU is hardly an empire in the same vein as Russia. joshcryer Mar 2014 #122

I believe that the EU is the junior partner in the American imperial project with some eastern... Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #123

I think "junior partner" is fair. joshcryer Mar 2014 #124

A very astute post with which I agree whole-heartedly.nt Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #125

Repeating what I said to joshcryer: I enjoyed that exchange.. 2banon Mar 2014 #133

I enjoyed reading this exchange between you democracyinkind 2banon Mar 2014 #132

No, it's not a no-win situation, the EU requires LGBT rights CreekDog Apr 2014 #173

The EU requires many thing that Ukraine can't offer. nt Democracyinkind Apr 2014 #174

yes they can offer that CreekDog Apr 2014 #175

You got that right.. John McCain and Nuland? Uh Yeah, NEO CON Machinations. eom 2banon Mar 2014 #13

We used to call for "self determination" for people. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #15

We still do. Except when it doesn't suit us. Xithras Mar 2014 #52

How about self-determination for Chechnya? NT Adrahil Mar 2014 #75

You mean, like in 1861? Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #79

No, I was thinking more of 1991. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #80

My point is, that 'supporting the principle of self-determination' is always somewhat arbitrary. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #82

Indeed it is. And, trumpeting it as a "democratic principle" can sometimes bite you in the ass. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #86

Hear, Here! Well Said. 2banon Mar 2014 #96

I also would have voted to join Russia Autumn Mar 2014 #16

I have mixed feelings about this whole thing Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #17

You 'guess' that ethnic Russians have been mistreated in Ukraine? Jenoch Mar 2014 #18

Based on the status of ethnic Russians in the Baltic countries Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #23

The Baltics and Ukraine are in different parts of the dormer USSR. Jenoch Mar 2014 #71

Do you know that the 58% majority is the result of mass deportation of the indigenous Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #20

Yes, and the same thing happened in the Baltic countries Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #22

Yep! oldandhappy Mar 2014 #33

Crimean Tatars Will Have to Vacate Land – Official Bosonic Mar 2014 #129

Sounds Familiar? Eminent Domain, What we have done/do everywhere in this country and abroad. eom 2banon Mar 2014 #134

I agree with you. dilby Mar 2014 #19

Progressives for Putin ProSense Mar 2014 #24

But, "the west".. "the west"... leave Putin Alone. Lucky Crimea Cha Mar 2014 #111

Yeah, but you'd vote to leave the U.S. to join Russia BeyondGeography Mar 2014 #27

I would probably have done the same if I weren't part of a minority there. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #28

Something a little fishy about having Russian troops and weaponry around during the vote. Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #29

How would troops standing around with weapons .... oldhippie Mar 2014 #37

There were no troops and weaponry around during the vote, no more than normal Catherina Mar 2014 #43

Here's what the Guardian has to say about the observers.... Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #60

My mistake. I didn't mean the vote itself, but the campaign, for lack of a better word. Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #68

I understand what you're saying Catherina Mar 2014 #77

Again, I have no beef with self-determination. Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #83

The troops were always in the Crimea Catherina Mar 2014 #99

Absolutely, and if something can't be discussed politely, I'd rather not discuss it at all. Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #103

Thanks. I look forward to more exchanges with you Catherina Mar 2014 #139

Video of troops the day of the vote: joshcryer Mar 2014 #113

If this IS what the people of Crimea wanted, I'm all for it.......... wandy Mar 2014 #30

well, of course oldandhappy Mar 2014 #31

So why doesn't Putin let the Chechens have a vote for independence? hack89 Mar 2014 #32

You and I don't agree often but this is an astute point. nt stevenleser Mar 2014 #40

Because it's not about morality or consistency but national interest. Comrade Grumpy Mar 2014 #41

This issue isn't about Kerry. And "national interest" isn't an exception to international law. stevenleser Mar 2014 #51

Bingo! And the winner goes to Comrade Grumpy ^this^ .. eom 2banon Mar 2014 #95

It is not important to Putin but it is important to many here... Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #56

So the EU and America made him do it. Got it. nt hack89 Mar 2014 #69

Great question. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #155

And I'm pretty sure that you would have supported seccession as a Southerner in 1861. Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #44

I'm pretty sure you would be wrong. The secessionists were trying to run away from a commitment. reformist2 Mar 2014 #61

I thought the whole point was that Russia used coercion in Crimea? redgreenandblue Mar 2014 #91

What would have been your rationale? KamaAina Mar 2014 #47

If I were Russian, the reason is self-evident. If not, Russia is way more stable than the Ukraine. reformist2 Mar 2014 #63

So should Ukrainians living on mainland Ukraine also desire to join Russia... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #64

If other regions vote to leave, that would be fine too. It'll make what's left of Ukraine more stabl reformist2 Mar 2014 #65

Even if the vote comes while under an occupation of military forces? nt Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #67

Heh, Russia is about to get real unstable. joshcryer Mar 2014 #112

Not if you were a Tatar, although the chances of being Tatar and in Crimea are pretty low Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #54

You think the West has pumped all that aid money into Ukraine for charity? malaise Mar 2014 #55

This is what they want us to believe, for charity, human rights and democracy Catherina Mar 2014 #66

The vote was meaningless in that there was no way to vote against leaving the Ukraine Gothmog Mar 2014 #76

The turnout tells the story. There's really no debate that the majority wanted out of the Ukraine. reformist2 Mar 2014 #89

I disagree Gothmog Mar 2014 #90

LOL! No one was forced at gun point to vote at all. 2banon Mar 2014 #97

The concept of choice is a key part of voting Gothmog Mar 2014 #98

The problem there is... shaayecanaan Mar 2014 #100

The vote is totally meaningless from a legal and political standpoint Gothmog Mar 2014 #102

The Crimeans seem to think their vote had meaning. Comrade Grumpy Mar 2014 #104

Watch the first five seconds: joshcryer Mar 2014 #115

By your logic, the recent vote in North Korea must be given effect Gothmog Mar 2014 #135

It wasnt shaayecanaan Mar 2014 #106

This vote was a PR Stunt Gothmog Mar 2014 #140

The vote for independence in Kosovo was 99% shaayecanaan Mar 2014 #141

Kosovo? Really? You do realize that there are major differences Gothmog Mar 2014 #143

Yes, really. shaayecanaan Mar 2014 #144

Your claim that there was a real choice on the Crimea ballot is simply wrong Gothmog Mar 2014 #145

This is what I hate about internet debate... shaayecanaan Mar 2014 #150

I was not aware that this was a debate Gothmog Mar 2014 #157

sure shaayecanaan Mar 2014 #168

The UN Vote on Crimea is good news Gothmog Mar 2014 #169

Amusing cartoon Gothmog Mar 2014 #167

Yes, in one city 123% of the city's population voted for this measure Gothmog Mar 2014 #131

Of course.. but, you'll only get denials from those who are Cha Mar 2014 #110

Good post Gothmog Mar 2014 #136

The people could have byocotted the vote if they would have wanted to oppose it. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #118

And yet their votes had to be counted to get to 123% of the population in one major city Gothmog Mar 2014 #146

I haven't been able to check out those numbers yeat PLUS... Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #147

I never saw any authority for your assertion Gothmog Mar 2014 #148

Uhm, on the authority of the dozens of western journalists present, perhaps? Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #149

Have you found any authority for your claims? Gothmog Mar 2014 #154

About russian speaking people? Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #156

Here is a very good article on why this election was fraudulent and some reliable statistics Gothmog Mar 2014 #158

I've read that article 3 days ago, it makes many of the same points that I did. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #160

I was not disputing your numbers or debating you on this issue Gothmog Mar 2014 #161

My basic position is that I am in favor of self-determination in almost all cases. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #162

You can not divorce the legal or ethical issues Gothmog Mar 2014 #164

Legalism is, as far as geo-strategy is concerned, always a secondary issue. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #165

While I agree with your comments about bush, we will have to agree to disagree as to this election Gothmog Mar 2014 #166

not if you were a Tatar MNBrewer Mar 2014 #138

Oh, never mind pesky facts--there's an agenda to shop! nt MADem Mar 2014 #153

agreed AmyCossileon Mar 2014 #151

Mischief is afoot for certain. Puzzledtraveller Mar 2014 #159

The UN has rejected the referendum in Crimea and Russia's annexation of Crimea Gothmog Mar 2014 #170

The fractious vote indicates the "New World Order" is starting to break apart. reformist2 Mar 2014 #171