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Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
64. Gosh, why would anyone ponder a possible fire
Thu Mar 20, 2014, 09:33 AM
Mar 2014

in a Boeing aircraft?

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324425204578601752534401168
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/14/travel/787-dreamliner/
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-21038128
http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2012232676_apuscockpitfires.html
http://www.avherald.com/h?article=44078aa7&opt=0
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/443787/Horror-as-pilot-accidentally-broadcasts-Mayday-call-to-cabin-as-cockpit-fills-with-smoke
http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2013/05/09/boeing-777-fires/2147173/
http://www.nycaviation.com/2010/05/cockpit-fire-forces-united-757-to-make-emergency-landing-michelle-tanner-uninjured/

Then there were fires caused by window heaters that six years later was STILL awaiting final approval.

- March 2002: The first report made to NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System - a database that encourages airline employees and other to voluntarily report safety problems - of a Boeing 757 cockpit fire related to the window heater. The airline determines the cause was a loose screw.

- January 2004: A fire erupts near the cockpit window heat terminal of an Air Greenland 757. Four days later a cockpit fire in an American Airlines 757 prompts an emergency landing. Boeing tells the National Transportation Safety Board and the FAA the two incidents are similar to at least four previous incidents involving 747, 757, 767 and 777 planes.

- March 2004: Using windows removed from the American and Air Greenland planes, investigators determine a loose cross-threaded screw is causing electrical arcing; ASRS sends out the first of four safety alerts regarding window heater problems in the 757.

- May 2, 2004: An American 757 en route from Miami to Venezuela experiences a cockpit window fire. A cross-threaded screw is determined to be the cause. Boeing tells the NTSB a service bulletin for the 757 will be issued by September 2004.

- Mid-2004: Boeing begins making planes with a redesigned cockpit window that uses a pin-socket connector rather than a screw. The company says it will issue service bulletins recommending windows on existing 747, 757, 767 and 777 planes be replaced with the new design. The FAA says that once Boeing issues service bulletins, the agency will order airlines to inspect planes for the cross-threaded screw and replace damaged windows.

- January 2005: With service bulletins for 757s and other models still not issued, Boeing provides a schedule: March 10, 2005, for 757 and 767s bulletins; July 7, 2005, for the 747 bulletin. The FAA again promises to make the service bulletins mandatory after they are issued.

- February 2006: Service bulletins have not been issued. Boeing and the FAA tell the NTSB the cause of the delay is a "minor" disagreement over the wording of the bulletins.

- April 23, 2006: An American 757 diverts to John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York because of smoke in the cockpit. An inspection finds a short in the window heater due to a cross-threaded screw.

- June-August 2006: Boeing issues service bulletins for the 747, 757, and 777 models. A 767 service bulletin continues to be delayed due to the Boeing-FAA disagreement.

- Sept. 4, 2007: The NTSB sends the FAA a letter expressing concern that there is no safety order making the service bulletins mandatory. The board recommends the FAA approve Boeing's draft service bulletin for the 767 and order airlines to replace windows in the 747, 757, 767 and 777 planes with the new design.

Jan. 30, 2008: An American 757 suffers heavy cockpit smoke and a shattered window while over the Atlantic Ocean and makes an emergency landing in Palm Beach, Fla. Both pilots, three flight attendants and a passenger are treated for smoke inhalation.

March 13, 2008: The FAA proposes a safety order affecting 1,212 U.S.-registered planes. The order gives airlines a choice between the old window design plus regularly scheduled inspections or the new window design without inspections. It would apply to 757, 767 and 777 models, but not 747s.

April 2008: The NTSB recommends the proposed order be expanded to include 747s, and that airlines be required to install the new windows. Some airlines object to the FAA's proposal, saying the agency has misidentified the problem.

May 16, 2010: A cockpit fire aboard a United Airlines 757 prompts an emergency landing. FAA officials says they will expedite final approval of the proposed safety order.


It is quite proper consider fire in any hypothesis concerning a Boeing aircraft, especially in light of the history of fires involving the 757/767/777 and 787 aircraft.

Also, to re-iterate, I never claimed the theory was the most likely, or efficient, but the most RATIONAL. In other words, Okham has bloody all to do with it, mate.

This maxim, as interpreted by Bertrand Russell,[14] states that if one can explain a phenomenon without assuming this or that hypothetical entity, there is no ground for assuming it, i.e. that one should always opt for an explanation in terms of the fewest possible causes, factors, or variables.

We have PLENTY of "grounds" to consider fire on a Boeing aircraft.
It sounds convincing but there are a few issues with it. DanTex Mar 2014 #1
Who cares?? All that matters is....where is the plane?? cbdo2007 Mar 2014 #2
The point is, the theory would give you an indicator of where to look Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #7
Thanks for narrowing it down....have you alerted the news that it might be in the Indian Ocean?? cbdo2007 Mar 2014 #36
Your snark is appreciated by someone Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #70
As an aviation expert on CNN said about this sufrommich Mar 2014 #3
+1 Agschmid Mar 2014 #5
It never made any sense as an explanation. sufrommich Mar 2014 #8
You're right. CANDO Mar 2014 #81
If you electrical system is gone Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #9
The pilots explanation for there being no way sufrommich Mar 2014 #12
Depends of the sequence of events Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #49
I don't buy this scenario 2naSalit Mar 2014 #78
Again Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #79
And I never suggested 2naSalit Mar 2014 #82
Wasn't suggesting you were Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #83
If your electrical system is gone how does the plane fly for 5+ more hours? Agschmid Mar 2014 #14
Depends on which systems are damaged, Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #25
depends Corgigal Mar 2014 #15
"or a meteor hit them" sufrommich Mar 2014 #17
Of course, Corgigal Mar 2014 #22
I like the whole "a rock from outer space sufrommich Mar 2014 #23
'Interesting'? Are you kidding? CNN would interview the fucking rock. randome Mar 2014 #29
I hope it's Wolf who does the interview . sufrommich Mar 2014 #31
They sent a radio transmission 12 minutes after they programmed the course change Recursion Mar 2014 #24
That is what is reported Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #26
But they aren't programmed with a deadman's switch Recursion Mar 2014 #27
No, but the alternate Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #56
I'm pretty sure the order came to "pull 777" and the CIA blew it with thermite. Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #53
You forgot their accompice Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #54
That's the biggest problem Corgigal Mar 2014 #10
It happens Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #30
Why is this "rational"... it does not make any sense? Agschmid Mar 2014 #4
Agreed Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #20
How about a combo of this theory and flamingdem Mar 2014 #6
Possible Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #13
But why did they fly off course for 5 hours with a fire going on? pnwmom Mar 2014 #11
If the crew was incapacitated by smoke Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #18
I thought the auto-pilot had been turned off. And weren't there several changes pnwmom Mar 2014 #28
They could have taken these manuevers then succumbed Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #32
But over all those hours? Hard to imagine, for me at least. n/t pnwmom Mar 2014 #33
I agree... kentuck Mar 2014 #58
I debunked it in another thread Blue_Tires Mar 2014 #16
A link to the thread please Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #19
here... Blue_Tires Mar 2014 #21
A question? kentuck Mar 2014 #34
I wonder if they have "Saucer Separation". longship Mar 2014 #37
Generally not Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #40
The most rational hypothesis is "I don't know" longship Mar 2014 #35
A good chunk of the internets is made up of sufrommich Mar 2014 #38
What does that gain? longship Mar 2014 #39
I don't pretend that commenting on threads sufrommich Mar 2014 #42
You have a point, to some extent. longship Mar 2014 #45
Insufficient data Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #43
A hypothesis must not multiply entities unnecessarily. longship Mar 2014 #47
But we are not discussing efficiency of reasoning Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #48
If one goes beyond the facts, making stuff up, one is not being parsimonious. longship Mar 2014 #50
I don't see the fellow made anything up Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #60
Where is the evidence for a fire? longship Mar 2014 #62
Gosh, why would anyone ponder a possible fire Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #64
All these speculations, and some are pretty damn sick, remind me of the 1989 USS IOWA gun turret... Tikki Mar 2014 #41
I agree Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #44
And I agree with you…it is with the odds and makes the most sense…sad as it may turn out.. Tikki Mar 2014 #46
This story is old and predates the computer direction change information Renew Deal Mar 2014 #51
Past performance is usually a good indicator of future performance XRubicon Mar 2014 #52
And everybody seems to be forgetting Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #55
No... I don't think anyone one of us forget those. Agschmid Mar 2014 #65
As I mention in another post Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #67
Let's put it this way... Agschmid Mar 2014 #68
Yes, but the Boeing 57/67/77 Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #69
A fire in a windshield wiper motor does not... Agschmid Mar 2014 #71
*sigh* Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #72
Yes it would be. Agschmid Mar 2014 #66
So you know how long it flew? XRubicon Mar 2014 #73
Didn't say I did know. Agschmid Mar 2014 #75
I must have misunderstood you XRubicon Mar 2014 #76
Thanks for the apology. Agschmid Mar 2014 #77
you are welcome! XRubicon Mar 2014 #84
I hope you enjoy that feeling you get when you put someone down. Agschmid Mar 2014 #85
Thank you so much XRubicon Mar 2014 #86
If the pilot was turning to head towards a close airport with friendly terrain Glassunion Mar 2014 #57
Maybe if they can find the files that were deleted on the simulator? kentuck Mar 2014 #59
Too soon? Travelman Mar 2014 #61
Yeah, Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #63
If you were writing a movie script... kentuck Mar 2014 #74
We may have to live with the mystery. Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #80
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