General Discussion

merrily

(45,251 posts)

142. Why do you think the First Amendment was included in the Bill of Rights in the

Sat May 31, 2014, 07:30 AM

May 2014

first instance? And why was it the very first Amendment?

In a system where the populace, or any signifcant subset of it, votes for the people who then run the country, informing the populace is of primary importance. Whether you call that the right of the populace to know or call it something else, amounts to semantic games. Howevver enough courts have indeed called it a right to know.

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Daniel Ellsberg: Snowden would not get a fair trial – and Kerry is wrong [View all] n2doc May 2014 OP

The only reason Ellsberg didn't do time was because Nixon screwed the pooch. MohRokTah May 2014 #1

Ellsberg is a hero. The SC ruled that when the information exposed by patriots like him and Snowden sabrina 1 May 2014 #9

Which Supreme Court Ruling Are You Referring To? jberryhill May 2014 #15

There have been a few, the press's 1st Amend. rights to publish information the public has a sabrina 1 May 2014 #28

NY Times v. United States wasn't premised on a "right to know" trumping a law jberryhill May 2014 #44

Snowden could not get a fair trial in the US. JDPriestly May 2014 #62

Not "fair" because the outcome would not be what he wants? nt kelliekat44 May 2014 #64

Not "fair" because the jury pool has been tainted beyond hope. JDPriestly May 2014 #74

And if you can show the jury was tainted, you can overturn a conviction jberryhill May 2014 #78

If you call prosecutorial misconduct procedural; and Ellsberg himself merrily May 2014 #150

Not fair because under the guise of "national avebury May 2014 #121

"tainted by the statements made by careless members of the government" jberryhill May 2014 #77

Wow. merrily May 2014 #147

Then how has he developed such a cult following? rep the dems May 2014 #108

Thurgood Marshall probably would. English Legal Scholar Blacksne would rpannier May 2014 #145

I completely agree... rep the dems May 2014 #158

How does anyone develop a cult following? merrily May 2014 #152

I didn't intend to suggest that his followers were right or wrong about anything rep the dems May 2014 #159

Yes, it does hold up. The jury is supposed to be impartial. merrily May 2014 #177

The government's stance on the matter doesn't make it impossible to find an impartial jury rep the dems Jun 2014 #184

Do you have any case or anything else to cite for any of that? merrily Jun 2014 #185

For Eddie having a lot of people who think he did the right thing? rep the dems Jun 2014 #189

Why do you think the First Amendment was included in the Bill of Rights in the merrily May 2014 #142

Please link to SC ruling karynnj May 2014 #21

You describe perfectly the extent of the abuse of classification and secrecy laws. JDPriestly May 2014 #57

Your consistent and unconditional defenses of Kerry are touching, but off base in this instance. merrily May 2014 #137

The Ellsburg and Snowden cases are completely different from completely different eras.... George II May 2014 #49

Correct, Ellsberg was not treated the way, eg, Chelsea Manning was, he was not held in isolation sabrina 1 May 2014 #69

True. In Ellsberg's day, Democrats didn't throw him under the bus, but praised him; merrily May 2014 #139

Things definitely have changed, haven't they? No Dem would have the courage to do that sabrina 1 May 2014 #168

Yep. Go to your left your right (your right, your right). So wrong. merrily May 2014 #171

Could you take the time to explain exactly how Ellsburg is truedelphi May 2014 #164

That was good. Thank you. Luminous Animal May 2014 #167

Exactly, Sabrina. Torturers are not even named although torture violates international law JDPriestly May 2014 #55

+1 Enthusiast May 2014 #80

This is the issue that made me become a Democrat. nilesobek May 2014 #143

Many, especially transexuals, consider the treatment of Chelsea Manning to have been torture. merrily May 2014 #144

Excellent post, thank you. No moral human being has EVER condoned torture. Manning sabrina 1 May 2014 #174

Totally agree with all your statements... Rockyj May 2014 #79

Good points, Sabrina. merrily May 2014 #155

So, I see you're on record that Ellsberg deserved prison too. dawg May 2014 #10

All the way up to the prosecutorial misconduct, yes. MohRokTah May 2014 #12

That's proof that Ellsburg did get a fair trial. nt msanthrope May 2014 #16

Yep. MohRokTah May 2014 #18

LOL, talk about re-writing history. former9thward May 2014 #23

Here's a cluem guy: the courts ARE PART of the government ConservativeDemocrat May 2014 #72

NO, the courts DID NOT "caught on to this". former9thward May 2014 #73

Not to put too fine a point on this... ConservativeDemocrat May 2014 #113

That's just it rep the dems May 2014 #106

Yes, apparently "fair trial" is synonymous with "getting off scott free" to Snowden fans Number23 May 2014 #112

No, Ellsberg is not saying that. He is saying that things now are not like they were in the 1960s, merrily May 2014 #180

DAYUM! First post in - "Comrade Danny shoulda done time in the stripey-hole!" bullwinkle428 May 2014 #19

ACtually, he shouldn't have because an over-zealous prosecution engaged in misconduct. MohRokTah May 2014 #20

The Espionage Act defiles our legal system. JDPriestly May 2014 #53

That's you're opinion. MohRokTah May 2014 #75

Did the government overstep with Manning? nt grasswire May 2014 #56

The prosecutors did absolutely nothing wrong in the anning case. MohRokTah May 2014 #76

"Manning had a fair trial under the laws governing the Uniform Code of Military Justice." greiner3 May 2014 #118

Manning was not tortured. eom MohRokTah May 2014 #119

Naked in solitary. Meh, you must do that before breakfast. nt elias49 May 2014 #133

Your opinion is different from that of non-government, not for profit experts on torture. merrily May 2014 #146

Recommend... KoKo May 2014 #166

I don't think a case about our allegedly anti-terra actions would be dismissed after 911. merrily May 2014 #122

hed be locked away indefinitely like they did to manning leftyohiolib May 2014 #2

Chelsea Manning did not get a fair trial and the sentence is outrageous. nilesobek May 2014 #17

the same would happen to snowden kangaroo court b.s verdict and heavy sentecnce leftyohiolib May 2014 #24

Manning wasn't locked away "indefinitely". George II May 2014 #50

ok thanks for the correction leftyohiolib May 2014 #51

Time will fly for Chelsea Manning. Hope they are not still making her strip naked. merrily May 2014 #123

I can't imagine being her age, and knowing I have 34 more years to do. truedelphi May 2014 #165

Compare her sentence with that of those twerps caught torturing in Abu Ghraib, especially merrily May 2014 #172

That is a certainty. n/t truedelphi May 2014 #162

"he would have no chance whatsoever to come home and make his case – in public or in court." Leme May 2014 #3

Snowden can then stay in Russia ProSense May 2014 #4

"He broke the law"-you of course are as pure as the driven snow? hobbit709 May 2014 #5

Are you suggesting I "broke the law" and so did you? Ridiculous response. n/t ProSense May 2014 #6

you don't even know the origin of the phrase do you? hobbit709 May 2014 #7

Notice how she left out that Drake was bankrupted and works in an Apple store. n/t NOVA_Dem May 2014 #8

And Drake never released a classified document. zeemike May 2014 #14

He would not be treated like Manning treestar May 2014 #34

He is charged under the espionage act like Manning zeemike May 2014 #48

Once, I never would have thought tjhat Manning would be treated like Manning, either. merrily May 2014 #132

Welcome to DU, where ignoring inconvenient truths is a common occurence. merrily May 2014 #124

wtf - he's not the ... wth leftyohiolib May 2014 #25

Are you seriously arguing that unless someone is "pure as the driven snow" they can not karynnj May 2014 #30

I'm not the one that is voluminously defending the surveillance apparatchik. hobbit709 May 2014 #31

There is something inherently wrong with defending it? treestar May 2014 #37

Ahh, so it is ALL or NOTHING! Got it. nt Pholus May 2014 #95

No, it is not treestar May 2014 #98

For US citizens, I think the NSA has a bit more explaining to do. Pholus May 2014 #169

How absurd. No one is suggesting that we have no surveillance. Some want rhett o rick May 2014 #102

No one is karynnj May 2014 #39

Tehre is breaking the law, and then there is breaking the law. truedelphi May 2014 #89

I don't equate Snowden with any of the people who took huge risks to do righteous things karynnj May 2014 #93

Yes, leaking does lead to making secret govt conduct an issue and yes that is due to actions of the merrily May 2014 #130

The problem is no one voted to give the power to determine whether something should be declassified karynnj May 2014 #156

Snowden's case is a lot more like Ellsberg's. merrily May 2014 #175

The point is that Greenwald now is in a position of enormous power karynnj May 2014 #178

Sigh. merrily May 2014 #179

Your arguments are excellently constructed. truedelphi May 2014 #161

Why, thank you, truedelphi. merrily May 2014 #173

Good post. I never cease to be shocked at the depths that some will sink to defend Snowden Number23 May 2014 #111

Agree. However, I also note the depths to which some will sink to smear him. merrily May 2014 #131

Yes, Snowden broke the law, but the Constitution should make a high US govt official pause long and merrily May 2014 #128

Drake agrees that under the current circumstances, Snowden was correct to seek political asylum sabrina 1 May 2014 #11

This is the best case FOR Snowdens defense I've read yet if its true. All the others have been uponit7771 May 2014 #136

It is odd to say the least, nilesobek May 2014 #148

The difference is that Drake, like Ellsberg himself, was an insider when he decided to go public Leopolds Ghost Jun 2014 #182

K & R Le Taz Hot May 2014 #13

This is yet another possible case for jury nullification. nilesobek May 2014 #22

my guess is that snowden would be clubbed to death with the patriot act leftyohiolib May 2014 #26

Snowden would be extremely lucky to get a fair trial FiveGoodMen May 2014 #27

If, as some polls suggest, around half the country sees him positively, karynnj May 2014 #38

A fantastically good point! QuestForSense May 2014 #116

He won't remain in Russia forever. MohRokTah May 2014 #29

Do you think his value is at its peak now? nilesobek May 2014 #100

I think it peaked when Russia invaded Crimea. MohRokTah May 2014 #101

Federal prosecutors select jurors? treestar May 2014 #33

No you are right nilesobek May 2014 #96

The media has not been universally negative about Snowden karynnj May 2014 #157

In the old guerilla warfare term, nilesobek May 2014 #160

The problem is that Snowden, not Greenwald, has clearly violated the law karynnj May 2014 #163

interesting thought grasswire May 2014 #83

He would get a fair trial treestar May 2014 #32

He would? progressoid May 2014 #59

Ad nauseum. Enthusiast May 2014 #81

+1000. He would get screwed, and muzzled, which is really why they want him. To shut him up. GoneFishin May 2014 #127

Under the Espionage Act he wouldn't. His main defence is that he did arthritisR_US May 2014 #87

The Espionage Act is the law treestar May 2014 #99

Would be nice if that's how it worked but arthritisR_US May 2014 #110

Ellsberg K&R Babel_17 May 2014 #35

If and this only an "if" mind you...........Snowden had limited what he released to only cstanleytech May 2014 #43

The decision to publish that information was made... bvar22 May 2014 #60

Sorry but you cant use the Guardian to hide behind because they couldnt have published it cstanleytech May 2014 #63

That IS what Whistle Blowers do. bvar22 May 2014 #67

Again if the information Snowden provided was only about the NSA cstanleytech May 2014 #71

A broken system gets the whistleblowers it gets Babel_17 May 2014 #97

Well yes he did reveal some parts were broken down however he also revealed stuff that was working cstanleytech May 2014 #104

I know Ellsberg Cryptoad May 2014 #36

You know him, and you'd like him to be imprisoned? DisgustipatedinCA May 2014 #40

X 10, bvar22 May 2014 #61

you seem Cryptoad May 2014 #66

Hah,,,, you must have one of those new Cryptoad May 2014 #65

Yep. You "know" Daniel Ellsberg. bvar22 May 2014 #68

The facts of what you said? DisgustipatedinCA May 2014 #84

seems you have yet figured out Cryptoad May 2014 #94

+1 an entire shit load. Enthusiast May 2014 #82

Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Rice have been free and unprosecuted for how long now? Shipwack May 2014 #41

ditto the cadre of Snowden bashers here reddread May 2014 #45

I begged them the last two days to go after Cheney... grasswire May 2014 #85

Couldn't have said it better, TY! nt arthritisR_US May 2014 #88

No he would get a fair one imo but there just is no way I can see him not being convicted cstanleytech May 2014 #42

I see the Spin Cycle bus has arrived to run Daniel Ellsberg over marmar May 2014 #46

I hear ya. Where is the "not in my name you don't"!! arthritisR_US May 2014 #90

Ellsberg has been under the bus for months now. merrily May 2014 #126

I see that John Kerry isn't the only tool in this thread.... mike_c May 2014 #47

Even if he had tried to follow all the "rules" he would have gotten screwed like Sibel Edmonds did cascadiance May 2014 #52

inarguably. reddread May 2014 #54

As long as they play the "states secret" canard, a defendant hasn't got a arthritisR_US May 2014 #91

He should have went to Edmonds, she had been running a whistle blower group. Sunlei May 2014 #109

"but Ellsberg gave us a GOP President! without his reveleations we wouldn't have gotten Ford!" MisterP May 2014 #58

Snowden said he made many 'whistle blower contacts' before he stole files and ran with them. Sunlei May 2014 #70

If he didn't keep copies of ALL those emails, given his penchant for arthritisR_US May 2014 #92

proud to be rec. 100 /nt jimlup May 2014 #86

So stay in Russia and keep spouting bullshit because Daniel Ellsberg says so. Problem solved. Cha May 2014 #103

Get Rid Of NSA billhicks76 May 2014 #105

, blkmusclmachine May 2014 #107

k&R woo me with science May 2014 #114

Why are our own party member so hostile towaards Snowden? Harmony Blue May 2014 #115

I think you know the answer. n/t truth2power May 2014 #117

to give a truthful answer to that question would get your post hidden. nt m-lekktor May 2014 #141

Ask yourself, does he love Obama? Autumn May 2014 #153

Ellsberg would quickly change his mind... nikto May 2014 #120

Sure he informed the world about illegal intrusive government behavior but in return he gets to be GoneFishin May 2014 #134

How dare Snowden reveal TRUTH nikto May 2014 #170

Ellsberg has gone from Democratic Party icon to one of many whom New Democrats merrily May 2014 #125

I am disgusted that we now have rightwing democrats GoneFishin May 2014 #129

What about Democrats calling Snowden a traitor on national TV, even as they demand that he merrily May 2014 #135

They are pissed that they can't shut him up. He foiled their usual approach of locking GoneFishin May 2014 #138

I think they could shut him up, if they really wanted. That is the scarier thing. merrily May 2014 #140

You are probably right. And he doesn't control the information anymore. So that does GoneFishin May 2014 #151

Yep. People talk about a plea deal. What's his bargaining chip, when they have every merrily May 2014 #154

DeSwiss: ''Snowden would not get a fair trial – and Kerry is an idiot.'' DeSwiss May 2014 #149

I don't give his intelligence status much thought...but KoKo May 2014 #176

I've felt that way about Kerry since 70s'...... DeSwiss May 2014 #181

Ha... KoKo Jun 2014 #183

OMG, OMG How Dare You! fascisthunter Jun 2014 #186

Ellsberg also says, tblue37 Jun 2014 #187

Yeah, Snowden's lawyer also stupidly compared Snowden to the Underground railroad.. Cha Jun 2014 #188

Even if Kerry maybe made a little gaffe with using this "Man Up " expression mylye2222 Jun 2014 #190