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In reply to the discussion: What are the main reasons men pay for sex? [View all]johnlucas
(1,250 posts)368. Another ivory tower snob. No surprise here.
It makes what the Phillipines prostitutes say all the more clear.
They spell it out in We Are Here To Win.
But to Squinch, this is just a mere "blog".
Not the actual accounts of the people themselves.
They're tired of you "saviors", Squinch.
You're not helping them.
You're acting like missionaries sent to convert the heathens.
They want you to take your moralizing & grandstanding back to your ivory towers while the real reform is being done.
I, on the other hand, am opening my ears & opening my mind.
I will let them teach me.
I am their student.
It's time for me (like The Rock says) to know my role, shut my mouth, & learn their lesson.
John Lucas
Excerpts from We Are Here To Win.
Being poor in the Philippines, most sex workers come from poor families, means all your life you are going to be acculturated into the culture of silence until it becomes a way of life. You learn to keep your own views of the world around you to yourself. No matter how much you believe things to be wrong you must believe it to be right when the rich, your master (amo), to whom you depend on for your livelihood say so. The poor lose their voices in the process. The master who has control of their lives speak for them. The acculturation goes on until they come to believe their voices do not matter and that only the voices of the powerful would count.
Most of us, sex workers, have gone through this process of acculturation in our lives. We have learned to accept that speaking up and being listened to is a privilege that the poor and the powerless are not entitled to. It does not help that we are forced to hide who we are since the society in which we live has ostracized us. That should make it easy for anyone to understand why it was not difficult for the feminist (abolitionists) to appropriate our voices and to start speaking for us. Society has made us invisible so to have women of power speak for us was a blessing or so we thought. It was not a blessing. It was exploitation. They were not speaking for us, they were speaking for themselves in our name. They have assumed the role of the amos and again we whimpered in silence as they robbed us of our voices. Most Filipinos, the poor and the powerless, when faced by a desperate situation there is nothing they could do about would most often take the fatalistic way out. They would say leave it to fate (bahala na). And bahala na, it was for us.
For years, we could only stand , mouths gagged, as we watched our new amos build their careers speaking for other underprivileged and mindless women in their list who they claim do not have the ability to speak for themselves. We are on top of that list. We could hardly figure them out. Maybe because we have not seen the corridors of the university like they all did that they baffle us. They speak so fiercely about fighting for womens right to self-determination but clearly that does not include us. Perhaps by women, they only meant themselves. We also do not understand the arrogance by which they have anointed themselves our saviors like it was their manifest destiny even when clearly we do not want them saving us because there is no reason to. What we want is save ourselves from them instead.
They do not only confuse us. They intimidate us. They speak in jargons we do not understand. We guess it was their way of telling us they know better and so we should just leave it to them to run our lives. But we really do not care about patriarchy, commodification and other words they spew. Those matters dont bring food on our table nor pay for our rent. All we are interested in is work undisturbed.
We grew up with succession of amos taking command of our lives which in reality were never truly our own. It is time we claim our lives back. It is time we find our voices because only in finding our voices back can we say our lives are our own. It would not be easy but it is possible. It can take years to get ourselves back to what we really should be but we are undaunted.
We must serve notice to our self-appointed saviours/masters that their time is up. They cant take our jobs away from us in the same way we cant take them away from their careers even if they have built them under our expense. Under the bus is no place for any human. And yes, whatever the society or anyone thinks of us, we are human beings deserving of every right accorded everybody else. Those rights are not for anyone to dispense. It is for us to claim and we are going to claim them.
Most of us, sex workers, have gone through this process of acculturation in our lives. We have learned to accept that speaking up and being listened to is a privilege that the poor and the powerless are not entitled to. It does not help that we are forced to hide who we are since the society in which we live has ostracized us. That should make it easy for anyone to understand why it was not difficult for the feminist (abolitionists) to appropriate our voices and to start speaking for us. Society has made us invisible so to have women of power speak for us was a blessing or so we thought. It was not a blessing. It was exploitation. They were not speaking for us, they were speaking for themselves in our name. They have assumed the role of the amos and again we whimpered in silence as they robbed us of our voices. Most Filipinos, the poor and the powerless, when faced by a desperate situation there is nothing they could do about would most often take the fatalistic way out. They would say leave it to fate (bahala na). And bahala na, it was for us.
For years, we could only stand , mouths gagged, as we watched our new amos build their careers speaking for other underprivileged and mindless women in their list who they claim do not have the ability to speak for themselves. We are on top of that list. We could hardly figure them out. Maybe because we have not seen the corridors of the university like they all did that they baffle us. They speak so fiercely about fighting for womens right to self-determination but clearly that does not include us. Perhaps by women, they only meant themselves. We also do not understand the arrogance by which they have anointed themselves our saviors like it was their manifest destiny even when clearly we do not want them saving us because there is no reason to. What we want is save ourselves from them instead.
They do not only confuse us. They intimidate us. They speak in jargons we do not understand. We guess it was their way of telling us they know better and so we should just leave it to them to run our lives. But we really do not care about patriarchy, commodification and other words they spew. Those matters dont bring food on our table nor pay for our rent. All we are interested in is work undisturbed.
We grew up with succession of amos taking command of our lives which in reality were never truly our own. It is time we claim our lives back. It is time we find our voices because only in finding our voices back can we say our lives are our own. It would not be easy but it is possible. It can take years to get ourselves back to what we really should be but we are undaunted.
We must serve notice to our self-appointed saviours/masters that their time is up. They cant take our jobs away from us in the same way we cant take them away from their careers even if they have built them under our expense. Under the bus is no place for any human. And yes, whatever the society or anyone thinks of us, we are human beings deserving of every right accorded everybody else. Those rights are not for anyone to dispense. It is for us to claim and we are going to claim them.
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So you've never paid for something that you didn't want to do or couldn't get someone to do free?
brooklynite
Aug 2014
#18
Several possibilities come to mind: but putting a temporary end to loneliness tops the list.
In_The_Wind
Aug 2014
#10
Yeah. I don't doubt that a lot of "johns" are violent, abusive creeps, though certainly not all.
nomorenomore08
Aug 2014
#15
and that is why I have purposely made my comments in this thread gender free. I can not speak
Tuesday Afternoon
Aug 2014
#152
Which demonstrates that the claim that that is why men pay prostitutes is a lie. nt
redqueen
Aug 2014
#85
They don't "need" to. They simply want to, and they have the extra money required
redqueen
Aug 2014
#54
Yes, I was expecting more of the former but, all we got was the later. n/t
Tuesday Afternoon
Aug 2014
#90
The article, beginning with the "just like every other long term couple except he pays her"
Squinch
Aug 2014
#19
You guys will just pull anything out of your asses to justify this, won't you? Voluntary
Squinch
Aug 2014
#248
And depending on the type of sex worker, the sex workers have plenty of "rules" of their own
R B Garr
Aug 2014
#176
That is exactly what the article did. Interesting anecdotal article. Yes. n/t
Tuesday Afternoon
Aug 2014
#94
The reason that's the case is they insist on looking at women as sex providers
treestar
Aug 2014
#312
Really, how many rich women choose to express their sexual "freedom" in this way.
smirkymonkey
Aug 2014
#189
Compared to marriage, a much lower level of emotional, physical and financial investment isrequired.
GliderGuider
Aug 2014
#32
Your 'personal, individual taste' is in large part based on societal standards.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
Aug 2014
#179
Very true. We are socialized to find beautiful that which is presented to us as beautiful.
Dark n Stormy Knight
Aug 2014
#215
Could someone explain the "you don't pay them for sex, you pay them to leave" thing?
betsuni
Aug 2014
#45
I believe the people who are saying it's about human touch are wrong. Right now,
Squinch
Aug 2014
#304
But why is it, the vast majority of the time, men? There are women who are lazy and
Squinch
Aug 2014
#348
The amount of excuses and justifications used to push this neoliberal agenda here is disturbing.
redqueen
Aug 2014
#100
"What one does in bed" can be either a private matter or a commercial transaction.
redqueen
Aug 2014
#157
Despite what lots of people seem to think, sex is not a basic biological 'need'.
Sheldon Cooper
Aug 2014
#104
I suppose it's proof that asexual people, who define themselves as different from sexual people,
Warren DeMontague
Aug 2014
#254
yet oddly enough, some people get very upset if the concept of "porn addiction" is challenged.
Warren DeMontague
Aug 2014
#255
By that standard, children don't need education and women don't need access to contraception.
Jim Lane
Aug 2014
#236
The biology is simply ball drainage relief with some validation of one's sexual identity. That's it.
ancianita
Aug 2014
#82
Have money that isn't needed else where (or is and they don't care) and need something or want......
Tikki
Aug 2014
#111
Off topic: How would primitive man even know how to make a saddle to put on a dinosaur? n/t
Yavin4
Aug 2014
#195
I'll bet it is for the forbidden thrill. It's a turn on for some men, I am sure, just to go
CTyankee
Aug 2014
#141
I tend to agree that the illegality of it all (and forbidden in the marital context) is some part
Tuesday Afternoon
Aug 2014
#168
I like that you supply anecdotal evidence to debate the anecdotal evidence in the OP
Tuesday Afternoon
Aug 2014
#148
I also note that the OP specifically addresses the topic of why do MEN pay for sex
Tuesday Afternoon
Aug 2014
#167
Yes, they didn't get the Girlfriend Experience - JC these people are delusional. n/t
seaglass
Aug 2014
#224
It's okay to walk into a bar and convince an inebriated stranger to have sex with you.
Yavin4
Aug 2014
#150
NOTE: Little Blue refused to agree to work for legalization in his own community
BainsBane
Aug 2014
#405
If you don't pay in money, you pay in time. Either way there is exchange going on
johnlucas
Aug 2014
#160
"Maybe it's jealousy. The general labor whores are jealous that they're not getting the same
R B Garr
Aug 2014
#362
Oh you're mad because I called you a Labor Ho? Because that's exactly what you are
johnlucas
Aug 2014
#372
Continuing to look down on the Prostitutes. And they wonder why things don't change.
johnlucas
Aug 2014
#380
Now you're contradicting yourself because before you said prostitutes were so highly paid
R B Garr
Aug 2014
#382
No contradiction whatsoever. I'm addressing that stigma on prostitution that prevents the reforms
johnlucas
Aug 2014
#388
And while we wait for the whole world to come together on this, something that has never happened
Squinch
Aug 2014
#346
I did research. No country is putting out the resources necessary to stop it
johnlucas
Aug 2014
#350
"Stopping traffickng is not very hard." You have to understand that is an assinine statement.
Squinch
Aug 2014
#351
Based on a blog. So here's the thing. Yes. We get that you read a blog and you think everyone
Squinch
Aug 2014
#354
Dismissiveness is the sign of defeat. You don't wanna learn from the actual people themselves.
johnlucas
Aug 2014
#358
No dismissiveness is caused by the fact that your position: "getting rid of trafficking is easy" is
Squinch
Aug 2014
#363
Wow. That's a really crazy analogy that has nothing to do with the situation under discussion.
Squinch
Aug 2014
#375
So in the parent/child relationship - the parents are the pimps, and the kids are the hos?
redqueen
Aug 2014
#272
Pimps *physically beat and abuse women*. They *intentionally get them addicted to drugs*.
redqueen
Aug 2014
#289
Ducktales WAS awesome. And trafficking went up because there was no follow through
johnlucas
Aug 2014
#365
John, it isn't that we are missing your enlightened messages. It's that your messages are silly.
Squinch
Aug 2014
#364
Yeah, his "all the whores are jealous" pearls are hilarious. And now the car pearl:
R B Garr
Aug 2014
#367
Yep. Parts. And people are mad in this thread because some use their genital parts to make money
johnlucas
Aug 2014
#392
All you are going on and on about is something called "Opportunity Costs". It's basic economic
R B Garr
Aug 2014
#407
Dear, you aren't really challenging or destroying anything. And your ridiculous assertions really
Squinch
Aug 2014
#395
Sex advice columnist, Dan Savage, encourages married couples to visit an escort
Yavin4
Aug 2014
#188
If a man gives a woman roses, takes her to a Broadway show, and pays for a very expensive meal.
Yavin4
Aug 2014
#187
That is such an odd question. Do you think prostitutes want to date? Do prostitutes
seaglass
Aug 2014
#241
Dishonest prostitutes want to date? Does not sound like an effective business strategy. Are you
seaglass
Aug 2014
#277
Roses, a Broadway show and dinner are fairly paltry offerings for someone looking for gold,
seaglass
Aug 2014
#298
If a woman slept with a man after a date is she considered a prostitute? Maybe in your mind. n/t
seaglass
Aug 2014
#301
I thought it was obvious, no I don't consider a woman who goes on a date with someone and then has
seaglass
Aug 2014
#303
No, not all women are prostitutes. I'm disgusted that no one has called out this post and the one
redqueen
Aug 2014
#271
This whole subthread is disgusting, as is the fact that so few have shit to say about it.
redqueen
Aug 2014
#283
Wow, you read soooo much into posts that it's worthless to even have a discussion with you
Yavin4
Aug 2014
#286
Let me guess: you think you are a real nice guy, and don't understand why more women don't like you.
Squinch
Aug 2014
#307
Ability to fully dictate terms of a sexual encounter with no further obligation.
TheKentuckian
Aug 2014
#220
Check out the Pictures that are released of those arrested for trying to pay for sex
JI7
Aug 2014
#222
Did I ever mention that I used to have an odd, almost preternatural loathing for BOTH those people?
Warren DeMontague
Aug 2014
#256
Maybe because women they are sexually attracted to aren't attracted to them. I remember
raccoon
Aug 2014
#284
Most humans are trafficked to work on farms, in restaurants, in hotels, in nail salons, etc.
Yavin4
Aug 2014
#330
The two positions you describe are not mutually exclusive. There is no one on this board who
Squinch
Aug 2014
#347
"There is no one on this board who has a problem with consenting adults doing anything"
LadyHawkAZ
Aug 2014
#411
Government retains the right to designate where businesses can be located.
DemocratSinceBirth
Aug 2014
#409