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Peace Patriot

(24,010 posts)
342. "...they ignore you - because you are deliberately inconsequential."
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 01:28 PM
Dec 2014

Thank you for your rant! It is an understandable one, though I have some questions about your target, which I will presume to describe as ordinary people who are ineffective liberals and/or ethical Americans with short attention spans and no effective action solutions. You are aiming your anger at SOMEONE directly as "you" (including yourself to some extent), and if I haven't captured that "you" accurately, I apologize. I don't think you mean people who are hypocritical or insincere--but rather people who CAN'T FOCUS (for instance, giving equal weight to torture and net neutrality as issues of concern*).

To understand the problem you are addressing--and the "you" whom you are addressing--for instance, WHY the left (which I firmly believe is in the majority--even the vast majority--in this country) SEEMS to get "scattered" over many, many issues--we need to focus on this apt phrase of yours: "deliberately inconsequential."

I don't think that ANYONE, by their own choice, has deliberately made themselves inconsequential. I think that this is something that has been done to us--to the vast majority--and our main flaw or inadequacy, as a people in an alleged democracy, is failing to grasp HOW we have been made inconsequential.

You can't DO anything about it, if you don't understand HOW it has happened--how we, as a people, have been made inconsequential.

I would start with our elections being tabulated with 'TRADE SECRET' programming code, largely controlled by one, private, far rightwing-connected corporation (ES&S/Diebold), with NO auditing in half the states in the country, and miserably inadequate auditing in the other half.

'TRADE SECRET' vote 'counting' is not the first effort to render us "inconsequential," it is the last--the final blow to democracy (which occurred circa 2002 to 2004**). It is still a doable thing to get rid of these election theft machines--and, in my opinion, it's where we need to start, in peeling back the various methods that are being used to destroy our democracy. We know what some of these methods are--for instance, corporate media promotion of fascist views; corporate media "divide and conquer" propaganda; corporate and billionaire campaign money. But none of these and other ills (including other election rigging tactics, such as purges of black voters) can be addressed when a private, far-rightwing-connected corporation is rigging our elections--is determining WHO gets to use government funds and powers. (You wonder how we can keep 'electing' congresses that end up with an 8% approval rating? THIS is how. Most of them were NOT elected!).

The PROGRAM we are suffering from--of corporate rule, of endless war, of fascist news media, of rigged elections--is DESIGNED to do the following to you and me and the people of this country:

--disempower us (above all)
--demoralize and depress us with repeated defeats (especially the most involved citizens)
--divide us, bewilder us, overwhelm us (with MANY issues of grave concern)
--deprive us of vital information
--& disconnect us from the public sphere.

The five Evil D's!

I am convinced that this is an active, deliberate program, and that there is an active group of fascist powermongers behind it. But it doesn't matter if that is true, nor who they are, as to action. What matters is identifying the mechanisms of control and seeking ways to reverse them.

Throwing the election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor' (so to speak) seems to me the most concrete thing we can do, as a start. It's just so blatant! Most Americans would agree that votes should be counted in the PUBLIC VENUE. It is a unifying issue. It is THE issue to stimulate civic involvement by most sectors of the population, and get people out of this very depressed and disempowered state as to their civic duties. Its target is highly appropriate and illuminating: corporate rule.

I am NOT saying that our loss of democracy is not our fault, as individuals or as a people. Of course it is our fault in many ways--due to inattention, selfishness, lack of courage, or whatever, and also due to our desperate needs living under a corporate/military junta (f.i., supporting ourselves and our families amidst massive corporate robbery). Yes, we have been remiss. But why pile on? That is my problem with your rant. You are piling on to ALREADY disempowered, demoralized people.

There are certainly other action projects to be done--and some people doing them: media/information projects, organizing projects, community aid projects, food and energy projects, street protest projects, racial justice projects. In fact, I am rather astonished at what our people have been able to do, in very difficult times. But my view is that the success of any of these projects to a great degree hinges upon our ability to elect true representatives of the people, and the most blatant obstacle to that goal is the corporate-riggable vote counting system. Reverse THAT and you are THEN able to start reversing many other ills.

We do need to keep asking who's in charge; we do need to identify evil powermongers (i.e., the Koch Brothers, the Urosevich Brothers (ES&S/Diebold), the Bush Cartel, the CIA or the Behind-the-CIA, etc.); we do need to keep analyzing difficult, murky, tangled issues (for instance, the internal war between Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld vs. the CIA, circa 2003-2005; the Supreme Court installation of Bush Jr. in 2000 (pre-ES&S/Diebold); Bush junta collusion on 9/11; the corrupt, murderous, failed U.S. "war on drugs," and more)--because it does help to follow the pathways of corrupt power and seek out the "bigger picture." It helps to put things in context--to understand the anti-democracy forces, their goals, their internal disputes, what they use power FOR, the methods that serve them, etc.

It was VERY illuminating to ME, for instance, to research our party leadership on e-voting. Oh God, I was so shocked! Truly! Despite my knowledge of Corporate Democrats, I was flabbergasted by their support of 'TRADE SECRET' vote 'counting.' What it did was to solidify my view of the magnitude of our problems as a democracy. If we can't count on our own party leaders on the most basic element of democracy--counting the votes in the PUBLIC VENUE--we can't count on them for ANYTHING. I can only conclude that they, too, are benefiting from (or living in fear of) 'TRADE SECRET' vote counting. Ergo:

As to practical action: Don't count on ANY Democratic Party leader to help un-rig the voting system. It has to be entirely a movement from below, a movement of ordinary citizens, targeting, say, very local officials such as county registrars of voters (who, despite all, still retain the power to convert from the immensely riggable machines back to paper ballots counted by the people).

Research and analysis helps our curious minds and our ravaged souls to deal with the vast corruption of corporate-run government without becoming depressed and demoralized. You begin to understand WHY nothing works as it is supposed to in a democracy; WHY our leaders are deaf. With understanding come glimpses of how this corrupt system actually works, and where it might truly be vulnerable to reform, and thus, ideas for practical, effective action.

It's a mistake to dwell on the conspiracies (and there are many very real ones); but it's also a mistake to blame "the people," who need bolstering up, not blaming.

Our people need FOCUS (for sure), but also information, ideas and strategy, and heartening examples of effective action. (Latin America has a lot of such examples, lately.) I think that vote counting in the PUBLIC VENUE may pull all of our very serious but scattered issues together. But maybe cops killing unarmed young black men will do so. I tend to think, though, that only cosmetic and temporary reforms will result from protests against the latter, and something similar will happen on torture--because the people who are apparently making the decisions are not accountable to us; they are accountable to the powers behind them, including ES&S/Diebold and whoever is behind ES&S/Diebold. They may have their internal wars (for instance, corporate warmonger Feinstein vs. some faction of the CIA), but "we, the people" are a joke to all of them (to those in front, and to those behind them), and they have all the police/military power to crush us when we get too uppity, and all the government/media power to further demoralize us with empty reforms.

HOW DO WE CHANGE THIS VASTLY CORRUPT SYSTEM? That is the question--not who among us ordinary citizens may be to blame for past inaction, inattention, scatteredness (too many serious issues), poor direction of our ire (at the wrong targets), and other failures.

I think you would agree, and you say, that action is needed. How do you get action? Not by blaming ordinary people for their confusion, or for past failures or current opinions. And not by promoting the myth that our Democratic Party leaders are somehow, magically, going to start responding to the will of the people.

The best of our Democratic Party leaders do the LEAST that they can do for "we, the people" without disturbing the corporate/military powers who rule them and us.

And the worst of them, well, they (Feinstein included) enabled torture, unjust war, mindboggling theft, bloated military, militarized police, corrupt "war on drugs," rise of the "prison-industrial complex," and so much more, meanwhile DISABLING our people, and preventing reform, with 'TRADE SECRET' vote counting, largely controlled by ONE, PRIVATE FAR RIGHTWING-CONNECTED CORPORATION!

If you want me to praise Feinstein for her torture report, sorry I cannot. It means nothing and will come to nothing. I find it intriguing (who's she out to get? what's going on behind closed doors?) but not important. I don't know if that's what you want. Your rant is unclear in that respect. You seem to be saying, don't criticize our party leaders for not doing enough (don't "move the goalposts" on them; don't dump on them for failing us "when it comes to alpaca breeding regulations&quot , but (if that's what you mean) I think that you are really, really missing the "bigger picture"--that all of them are owned by big money interests; that all of them are subservient to the "military-industrial-prison complex", and that not one of them--NOT ONE!--can prove that he or she was actually elected.

I think Diane Feinstein is a bit player in the larger horror that is our government.*** I think that Obama probably was really elected--and by a bigger margin than we know--on the hopes and dreams of the American people for a just government. But I think he was "groomed" to play that role, was permitted to offer the minimum of sops for the public good (private insurance-run health care--jeez!), and, most important of all, was PERMITTED to be elected. These kind of Democratic Party leaders--virtually all of them--deserve our closest scrutiny, our strongest skepticism, our blistering criticism and our continuing, intelligent analysis as to why they are failing us in so many serious ways. They are clearly part of the problem. They are clearly embedded in a catastrophically corrupt system.

How do we find ourselves another FDR, say, and how do we get him or her elected president, in view of the immense 'TRADE SECRET' riggability of the election system? How can we even get a true reforming county registrar of voters elected? How are we ever going to have truly representative Congress again?

I do NOT encourage quietude, or non-voting, or throwing away votes, or non-participation of any kind. But I do advocate REALISM. Our government is NEVER going to give up torture, is NEVER going to give up overt and sneaky war, is NOT going to stop police murder and brutality, is NEVER going to create a good health care system, is NOT going to stop horrendous pollution of our planet, nor anything else that most people want, until our leaders are made beholden to US, once again. Hardly any of them are now, and the few who are are just tokens to make us think the system is honest. It is not!

-------------------------------------



*(It's not really fair to denigrate net neutrality in this way--nor any serious issue of concern--because it isn't torture, the most abominable of issues (perhaps with the exception of war itself and the slaughter of tens of thousands of people, most of them innocent). Perhaps what we need to do is to see that ALL the issues of concern are RELATED, i.e., the same "folks" who brought us torture are trying to bring us a corporate-friendly "tiered" internet; the same people who brought us torture are robbing us of our money, our rights and our democracy itself, and are actively trying to "divide and conquer" us, with this very tactic: too many serious issues on which the will of the people is being flouted.)

**(Accomplished with the "Help America Vote for Bush" act, passed by the Anthrax Congress in 2002, which provided millions of our tax dollars to the states, to spread the plague of election-rigging machines across the land. Our Democratic Party leaders overwhelmingly supported this--probably out of fear (some of them), neo-liberal collusion with corporate power (many) and/or collusion with the boondoggle of war for our "military-industrial-prison-complex" (too many). In short, our Democratic Party leadership was ALREADY gravely compromised by 2002, by means other than election rigging. These included corporate media manipulation of news and opinion, and the FILTHY campaign contribution system--both legacy fascist methods from the Reagan junta--and 9/11 itself, used to instill fear not only in our population but also in any of our leaders who might have helped to stop torture, unjust war and other crimes of the Bush junta. E-vote rigging was not the initiator of our problems; it was/is the final blow to our ability, as a democracy, to identify and solve problems. It was/is the end to any hope of reform.)

***(For instance, Feinstein didn't know who Leon Panetta was--Bush Sr.'s choice for 'Obama's' CIA Director, straight from Bush Sr.'s "Iraq Study Group." She publicly called Panetta "inexperienced," but quickly shut up about that. She obviously didn't know that he is "old CIA.&quot



K! & R!!! Preach it! nt ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2014 #1
So what should we do? Vattel Dec 2014 #2
As best I can figure, we have to plow under the soil we are growing Demit Dec 2014 #3
I think we should just repeat any metaphors the OP used in a mocking and snarky fashion n/t dogknob Dec 2014 #5
It saves the rolling of eyes at precious outrage. Demit Dec 2014 #15
this reminds me of my brother. he was always the first and the roguevalley Dec 2014 #49
I concur! whathehell Dec 2014 #179
Where can I send your internets? Aerows Dec 2014 #232
My opinion, which I'm not the type to pretend is some kind of divine revelation... True Blue Door Dec 2014 #10
I have a good idea, but it is off the politcal radar right now. Vattel Dec 2014 #16
We can't do that without control of Congress True Blue Door Dec 2014 #21
I love the way easychoice Dec 2014 #65
Obama could have easily done it in 2009. Vattel Dec 2014 #68
No, he couldn't - Presidents can't prosecute people. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #87
+1. It would have been a disaster... YoungDemCA Dec 2014 #88
Forgive me if I roll my eyes at your implication that Obama and Holder operate totally independently merrily Dec 2014 #113
(sigh) Here's the full picture. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #122
Yes, we're familiar with all the rationalizations. merrily Dec 2014 #130
And I'm familiar with all the rationalizations for why your inability to get what you want True Blue Door Dec 2014 #154
Wow, that was a huge load of crap to pull straight out of your ear! Feel better? merrily Dec 2014 #155
If I've misinterpreted your position, feel free to correct me. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #158
You have; I am and it's not worth the candle. Clearly, your OP was not about honest discourse. merrily Dec 2014 #159
Thank you for stating it plainly! Aerows Dec 2014 #138
You're most welcome. My posts a couple of years ago were nothing like they are now. merrily Dec 2014 #142
For what it's worth Aerows Dec 2014 #144
Thanks. No, DUers as a whole aren't stupid, but I sure was clueless. merrily Dec 2014 #145
"You people"? whathehell Dec 2014 #180
"People who pretend the President can order prosecutions" is a bit of a keyboardful. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #182
I'm sure you're brilliance will enable your search for alternatives. whathehell Dec 2014 #187
Damn, who said anything about prosecution? Vattel Dec 2014 #215
Really? You polled Congress at the time about support for such measures? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #216
Opposing such legislation at that time would have been politically crazy for a Democrat, Vattel Dec 2014 #222
So no one even tried to pass it, but you're certain it would have passed? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #223
I am not certain that it would have passed. Vattel Dec 2014 #271
" I'm not the type to pretend is some kind of divine revelation..." Aerows Dec 2014 #234
Ooo, emoji spam. You're a sharp one. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #236
Is that what they are calling emoticons these days? Aerows Dec 2014 #240
The torture victims appreciate your steadfast attention to seeking justice for them. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #258
That was an interesting segue. Aerows Dec 2014 #260
Yes, I quite randomly and bizarrely brought up the subject of the OP True Blue Door Dec 2014 #264
It's rather rich that you bring up Aerows Dec 2014 #276
The people have always sulphurdunn Dec 2014 #246
I have a suggestion! Dustlawyer Dec 2014 #248
Lobby. Repost. Repeat. Orsino Dec 2014 #317
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Dec 2014 #4
Thread win. 99Forever Dec 2014 #6
Seeing everyone other than yourself as evil is not a recipe for human progress. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #7
Neither is seeing everyone other than yourself as stupid Fumesucker Dec 2014 #13
I do have that problem. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #24
Actually the Suprme Court deprived us of that presidency Downtown Hound Dec 2014 #33
well, actually, gore was beaten mercilessly from 1000 rove-controlled radio stations while certainot Dec 2014 #61
Agreed, but Gore also owes his defeat to his not standing up for the people who had their right to Downtown Hound Dec 2014 #292
they already had the mainstream blockheads calling him "sore loserman" certainot Dec 2014 #316
Republicans will continue being treasonous thieves no matter what we say to them. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #74
Actually criticism of Al Gore's campaign is not moot Downtown Hound Dec 2014 #291
yep VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #131
Thank you. whathehell Dec 2014 #181
Amen to that. n/t Aerows Dec 2014 #230
I remain unconvinced that George W. Bush, Dickhead Cheney, the neo-con leadership, Downtown Hound Dec 2014 #32
And I'm unconvinced that most Democrats in Washington fit any of those categories. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #166
What a bunch of crazy bullshit Downtown Hound Dec 2014 #290
Wholeheartedly agree with you and your first replier... MadDAsHell Dec 2014 #312
Things have gotten better in a lot of ways since Obama took office YoungDemCA Dec 2014 #92
This message was self-deleted by its author Earth_First Dec 2014 #8
Woah. Practicality and common sense around here??! Prepare for teh Swarm! Number23 Dec 2014 #9
Agreed, but I guess I just never had any illusions about how far it went. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #14
CIA Torture Tapes Hissyspit Dec 2014 #60
Only one quibble with that information: Calling it the "Obama DOJ." True Blue Door Dec 2014 #80
Let me roll my eyes at the "realist" who even bothers to type such fantasy after any observation TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #94
He had to appoint an Attorney General who would be confirmed by the Senate. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #114
Surely, you did not expect more than a bunch of trumped up rationalizations? merrily Dec 2014 #157
I'm trying to explain how to succeed. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #167
Don't let me interrupt your mansplaining. Please continue. You've been a huge hit so far. merrily Dec 2014 #169
And Bush's psychopathic tendencies were visible as early as the 2000 presidential debates hatrack Dec 2014 #102
Yes. My reaction to him then was visceral. WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #116
That's exactly what I saw. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #124
you are confusing heaven05 Dec 2014 #323
+1 nt steve2470 Dec 2014 #45
Well said. nt msanthrope Dec 2014 #51
The President did not release the report Caretha Dec 2014 #209
Didn't I address this already? Number23 Dec 2014 #274
Vote (D) and it will all go away. L0oniX Dec 2014 #11
All outrages are equal but some are more equal than others Fumesucker Dec 2014 #12
Props for the Rand Paul mention neverforget Dec 2014 #17
speak for yourself. PowerToThePeople Dec 2014 #18
Pretty sure I just did. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #27
i saw a lot of "we" in your op. PowerToThePeople Dec 2014 #31
Should I just say "you" and be perfectly accusatory? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #82
Its hard to be outraged now, as if it was a surprise bhikkhu Dec 2014 #19
Outrage is useful if it galvanizes practical action. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #30
Garner was strangled and suffocated. tblue37 Dec 2014 #79
Yes, you're right. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #83
So, where were you when we were in the streets protesting the WTO, the Iraq war, Zorra Dec 2014 #20
Calling us "commies" and hippie bashing is my guess. ForgoTheConsequence Dec 2014 #28
Everyone and everything you don't like is exactly the same, isn't it? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #63
I'M the one manufacturing disputes? ForgoTheConsequence Dec 2014 #72
My final paragraph asked for practical ways to bring justice. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #126
You really don't know the difference between those protests, do you? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #59
So, why don't you tell us how you really feel about those black folks who are Zorra Dec 2014 #98
Street protests are perfectly tailored to the issue of police violence. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #133
You should have stopped at the end of the first paragraph, it was sensible. Zorra Dec 2014 #135
Your criticism is nebulous. Is that deliberate? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #151
YOU heaven05 Dec 2014 #320
Don't miss the point, MLK had a plan Cosmic Kitten Dec 2014 #299
I didn't miss any point. Zorra Dec 2014 #310
And you, my dear Zorra Aerows Dec 2014 #314
Why would you say " Study history, not Bill O'Reilly" Cosmic Kitten Dec 2014 #322
Not to be smug Aerows Dec 2014 #326
Bottom line is that you're pissed off that no one paid attention to your precious research. SMC22307 Dec 2014 #125
Given that I didn't mention it until someone else challenged me on it True Blue Door Dec 2014 #134
Your nastiness in this reply is totally uncalled for and unproductive. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #252
I think you have the roles in the exchange reversed. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #266
Excellent piece of writing and thinking. Bravo. LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #22
In the run-up to Operation Shocking and Awful in the fall of 2002, I attended a KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #23
I respect your contributions and your thoughtful response. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #150
I believe some good points about our heaven05 Dec 2014 #319
Anyone who earned his or her stripes back in the days of Tricky Dick and Agnew has my KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #324
How about you take your preachy high horse and shove it where the sun don't shine? Downtown Hound Dec 2014 #25
May not mean much in the cosmic scheme of things, but you're one of my heroes, fwiw - nt KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #36
BTW flvegan Dec 2014 #47
Thank you for summarizing my feelings in words I had trouble bullwinkle428 Dec 2014 #69
Amazingly rare jury result!! Quantess Dec 2014 #156
You're proud to be associated with childish hypocrisy? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #170
Childish hypocrisy? No. Quantess Dec 2014 #173
It does tell me something. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #178
What? I don't mean to insult you, or people with mental illnesses, but... Quantess Dec 2014 #249
Please explain how I was hypocritical... Downtown Hound Dec 2014 #289
In summary, you think your personal feelings are the most important element True Blue Door Dec 2014 #152
Um no, try again. Downtown Hound Dec 2014 #294
Fine, I get it. So what have you actually accomplished? derby378 Dec 2014 #213
You know this might come as a big surprise to you, but... Downtown Hound Dec 2014 #297
Amen! And thank you for your selfless sacrifice for a greater good. RiverLover Dec 2014 #298
You've humbled me derby378 Dec 2014 #341
I was in the streets while Democratic leaders were cheer-leading for war. ForgoTheConsequence Dec 2014 #26
I hear ya, comrade! - nt KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #38
The majority of Democratic leaders opposed the war. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #153
Yet, for at least 2 years, the Party has been trying to coronate this one. merrily Dec 2014 #192
When you say "the Party," who are you talking about? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #193
I never said they were trying to coronate her in 2008. Reading comprehension is your friend. merrily Dec 2014 #194
Ah, but everyone who is now, was then. And they failed. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #200
I disagree that everyone who is trying to coronate her now was trying so to do then. That is not my merrily Dec 2014 #201
The super-delegates came into line with the Party rank and file. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #218
Again, I don't agree with you about what happened in 2008. merrily Dec 2014 #241
I'm pretty sure Aerows Dec 2014 #277
Listen pal! I've done plenty of research in my mom's basement to disprove your "water is wet" Guy Whitey Corngood Dec 2014 #282
LOL! Aerows Dec 2014 #284
+1 That's why he's getting one liner replies instead of explanations, reasoning, links, etc. merrily Dec 2014 #306
Dem Leaders Opposed the war? How? fredamae Dec 2014 #207
I was just adding up the House and Senate Democratic votes listed on Wikipedia. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #211
What's your evidence for that assertion, that Dems feared for their physical safety? Demit Dec 2014 #226
I stressed the word "apparently." It appeared to me that they feared for their physical safety. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #233
Terrified tiptoeing? Practically gagging? Nonverbal behavior? Demit Dec 2014 #273
My outrage started the moment Reagan/Bush took the office. Dont call me Shirley Dec 2014 #29
Thank. You. byronius Dec 2014 #34
You Know There Is Worse Not In The Report billhicks76 Dec 2014 #35
Undoubtedly there is worse. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #171
Believe It billhicks76 Dec 2014 #281
too funny stupidicus Dec 2014 #37
Righteous Rant. Bookmarked. n/t freshwest Dec 2014 #39
That's a lot of words MFrohike Dec 2014 #40
There are just as many words as I require, neither more nor less. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #174
It could be that MFrohike Dec 2014 #285
We voted for Obama and he ended torture as soon as he got into office. ucrdem Dec 2014 #41
Some here seem to think Obama calls the torturers 'patriots' LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #42
Yeah well... ucrdem Dec 2014 #44
Here's Obama's quotes on the subject for your review: choie Dec 2014 #70
He hasn't to my knowledge issued any pardons. ucrdem Dec 2014 #73
It's not possible Caretha Dec 2014 #212
Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon Art_from_Ark Dec 2014 #311
I'm pretty sure that not every CIA employee was a torturer LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #76
Jaysuz, even when the words come straight from his mouth... WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #84
Jaysuz, some people should give up on pinning Obama with the Debil label. LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #91
The words came straight from his mouth. WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #95
I don't live in a Disneyland world, no. LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #97
It's too late for me to attempt to decipher that word salad. WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #99
Good night then. LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #101
Eight hours probably won't help... WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #107
zzzzzzzzZZZZZzzzzzzzz LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #115
You have bed bugs? WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #118
You cannot read. Period. Obama's term "THOSE folks"---THOSE---refers SPECIFICALLY TO "THOSE FOLKS" WinkyDink Dec 2014 #185
Yep. 'Those' folks is being Very Specific! LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #253
can you say that again, sonny. but a bit louder this time? LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #333
You're ignoring the rest of what you quoted though treestar Dec 2014 #147
Watching them spin that quote is something to behold. WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #89
Now, now, just beg the OP's pardon, look ashamed and move along. merrily Dec 2014 #165
Okay your megamindship, then who was he calling patriots in his "we tortured some folks" speech? TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #196
The people who did work for the CIA and that may have been involved somehow LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #214
I see no indication that he was trying to defend and soothe the cafeteria staff at the CIA TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #339
I know him well enough, and everyone should by now, to know he LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #340
Oh yeah, how time do you spend together? How many deep conversations have you had? When did you last TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #345
+10000000000000 nt steve2470 Dec 2014 #46
Jan. 23, 2009: "Obama orders CIA to stop torturing terror suspects" ucrdem Dec 2014 #53
Of course not steve2470 Dec 2014 #54
Dood!! Some people here think that Obama is Bush-lite! Major Hogwash Dec 2014 #62
Worser than Boosh! LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #77
Not according to Amnesty International, he didn't. merrily Dec 2014 #161
DU rec for pissing off all the right people... SidDithers Dec 2014 #43
+++ LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #57
Too true, too true. Major Hogwash Dec 2014 #81
"The right people" being those who consider torture a repugnant crime? whatchamacallit Dec 2014 #90
No, "The right people" being those who demonize Democrats at every level YoungDemCA Dec 2014 #96
Anyone who condones torture whatchamacallit Dec 2014 #105
Exactly treestar Dec 2014 #148
You should read your own post, if you want to see judgmental. Not to mention the OP. merrily Dec 2014 #168
Outraged when it happened, outraged now. Maedhros Dec 2014 #48
Not that you're implying equivalence or anything, right? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #242
Yeah, Maedros probably is Aerows Dec 2014 #279
I've been boycotting Wal-mart. zappaman Dec 2014 #50
Don't tell me how to feel, now, then or tomorrow. I am pissed off still! lonestarnot Dec 2014 #52
Feelings are a compass, not a map. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #245
My fucking compass. lonestarnot Dec 2014 #307
Who the hell do you think YOU are? choie Dec 2014 #55
Someone who storms on to DU, bashes the left, WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #100
+1 merrily Dec 2014 #106
"You shall know them by their cheer squad". Marr Dec 2014 #141
Isn't that the truth? Oilwellian Dec 2014 #217
I picture them in cubicles - TBF Dec 2014 #268
Thank you, Choie, whathehell Dec 2014 #202
I'm the guy telling it like it is. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #250
Telling it like it is?? choie Dec 2014 #283
i'll add that a lot of college students outraged by torture and guantanamo may want to check certainot Dec 2014 #56
What a pile of rationalizing crap. Hissyspit Dec 2014 #58
Second that! lonestarnot Dec 2014 #64
I third it... choie Dec 2014 #66
They don't care about torture. WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #86
^this Marrah_G Dec 2014 #108
I'm not at all sure it's caring about Obama, either. merrily Dec 2014 #172
You’re moving into a land of both shadow and substance, SomethingFishy Dec 2014 #103
Well, we knew the extent of the torture was bad, but I dare say, not this freakin' bad! Major Hogwash Dec 2014 #67
Lots of Johnny come lately outrage... Historic NY Dec 2014 #71
Are you suggesting that DU did not understand... WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #75
Hell, I was against the US being involved in torture before being against the US hedgehog Dec 2014 #78
I watched the initial reports of Daddy Bush unleashing Desert Storm on TV. stone space Dec 2014 #85
May be the most shit post I've read on DU whatchamacallit Dec 2014 #93
Agreed malletgirl02 Dec 2014 #104
Some old DU'er posted a "for us or against us" screed that was even more absurd. pa28 Dec 2014 #121
I'm surprised you call this a shit post. n/t Aerows Dec 2014 #313
I don't know if it's the worst, but it's up there. merrily Dec 2014 #163
Troll has been here for a year gonna tell us about what to be outraged about...lol!!! U4ikLefty Dec 2014 #109
Now, now, I'm sure s/he lurked for years! (n/t) WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #111
Don't they all "lurk for years"? U4ikLefty Dec 2014 #120
Be sure to read post #59. WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #123
Holy crap...whadda douche!!! U4ikLefty Dec 2014 #128
. Guy Whitey Corngood Dec 2014 #129
Here are some Trustafarians from Moral Mondays. WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #286
Thanks, those pics give me some hope. U4ikLefty Dec 2014 #308
You're welcome. WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #337
So what should my "plans" be? Nevernose Dec 2014 #110
yeah because you did so much more than the rest of us. liberal_at_heart Dec 2014 #112
We tortured some folks and shouldn't get all sanctimonious. Got it. pa28 Dec 2014 #117
Hey, I think I have apologists bingo! I just needed a phony irate kiss up kick down tirade and TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #119
Ugh, what are you blathering about? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #199
No, you kissed ass and rationalized for those with power and authority and spit blame at those who TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #338
curious how you feel about the way you worded your Op considering the responses... AuntPatsy Dec 2014 #127
I'm unclear on what your message is Aerows Dec 2014 #132
Yes, we've established this. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #198
"Corrupt rather than evil"? Aerows Dec 2014 #327
Somebody went Aerows Dec 2014 #136
I think we just have differing moral philosophies. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #197
This may very well be the most self-important tripe I've ever read here. Marr Dec 2014 #137
Phonics Aerows Dec 2014 #140
Agreed. I believe the bar has been reset (nt) CrawlingChaos Dec 2014 #146
Post removed Post removed Dec 2014 #191
You're trying so hard. Marr Dec 2014 #220
Is that a meme? I don't recognize it. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #224
I'm pretty sure Aerows Dec 2014 #231
Do you often just waltz into other people's conversations and randomly insult people? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #235
This isn't a conversation, it's a post on a public message board. Marr Dec 2014 #243
Whether you "buy" the truth or not is your problem. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #256
"Fragile ego" Aerows Dec 2014 #325
I have to assume this person is 14 years old or something. Marr Dec 2014 #237
I know Aerows Dec 2014 #238
lol! Marr Dec 2014 #244
It was hilarious! Aerows Dec 2014 #251
That was the second funniest thread in the history of DU. QC Dec 2014 #269
Don't be coy Aerows Dec 2014 #328
Don't call me an apologist! n/t QC Dec 2014 #334
That one! Aerows Dec 2014 #335
This message was self-deleted by its author Puglover Dec 2014 #210
I can't believe this OP got recommendations. Quantess Dec 2014 #139
It's addressed to anyone who finds value in it. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #177
So, you are helping? Quantess Dec 2014 #183
What exactly do you think history is? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #208
That's deep, dude. (bong rip just now) Quantess Dec 2014 #255
Blaming the victims. Fail. grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #143
Who are you talking about? Who are "the victims" I'm blaming? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #176
If someone commits crimes against us, we are the victims. grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #225
As a checkbox on a police report, sure. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #227
Saying the victims of torture are at fault for torture, is blaming the victim. grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #239
Which would be a meaningful statement if I'd ever done so. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #259
In my view, every American is the victim of CIA torture. grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #263
Of course you didn't get any real answers treestar Dec 2014 #149
Do you know what the "challenge" is? Quantess Dec 2014 #160
LOL! Funniest post I've read this week--and I told another poster yesterday that merrily Dec 2014 #164
Let's not be judgmental. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #175
WTH is the OP to demand "substance"? WinkyDink Dec 2014 #188
To wit, we need moral fiber to have a mass-movement. :p True Blue Door Dec 2014 #195
ANSWERS? How about the OP offer HIS solutions? HUh? Where are THEY? Self-righteous blather. WinkyDink Dec 2014 #186
Well Done, True Blue Door.. Thank you! Cha Dec 2014 #162
Exactly what was so "well-done" about the OP's post? it's verbose, and he thinks it is cleverly WinkyDink Dec 2014 #189
Agreed.. whathehell Dec 2014 #190
Actually, that was one of the smartest posts I have seen here for a while. LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #254
OFGS. Did you note the NON-reaction to MILLIONS marching against the 2003 Illegal Invasion? What WinkyDink Dec 2014 #184
If the poster was born last week, I might be willing to cut him some slack. bullwinkle428 Dec 2014 #205
How about adopting the tactics of Gandhi, martin Luther King or Cindy Sheehan? Kaleva Dec 2014 #265
Agreed rock Dec 2014 #203
"Talk about your plans to obtain justice." RiverLover Dec 2014 #204
As I've said in other comments in the thread True Blue Door Dec 2014 #221
I love Al, so yeah it is intriguing. And I'm impressed you had something for us! RiverLover Dec 2014 #293
What an audacious rant! Feral Child Dec 2014 #206
Blah, blah, blah, you have no ideas. Thanks for playing. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #219
I guess we all can't be practically perfect in every way, like you. And Mary Poppins. Arugula Latte Dec 2014 #228
you really DO think that all of us to the left of Tojo WEREN'T outraged 2002-8, don't you? MisterP Dec 2014 #229
Little irritated by this post Mr. Mustard Dec 2014 #247
This message was self-deleted by its author A-Schwarzenegger Dec 2014 #257
! QC Dec 2014 #262
This message was self-deleted by its author A-Schwarzenegger Dec 2014 #272
OMC Aerows Dec 2014 #278
Oh, look. A really *bad* torture apologism thread, woo me with science Dec 2014 #261
It's weird how many of them Aerows Dec 2014 #280
You have to admit, it's kind of cute and naive.. SomethingFishy Dec 2014 #321
I'd say it is hilarious Aerows Dec 2014 #329
I enjoyed reading the responses.. SomethingFishy Dec 2014 #331
I regret Aerows Dec 2014 #332
People don't want to risk their comfortable lifestyle. Kaleva Dec 2014 #267
i.e., Because Obama Enrique Dec 2014 #270
~~~True Blue Door, I gotta tell ya. You're skilz in replying respectfully to members needs work. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #275
Thanks for the moment of clarity Cosmic Kitten Dec 2014 #287
Oh. I'm pleased to see you wish to join Aerows Dec 2014 #330
forgive me if I roll my eyes at your precious thread. nt m-lekktor Dec 2014 #288
My anger in directed at those who not only defended torture but,.... Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2014 #295
We had a plan and we executed it, pretty successfully we thought, in 2008. sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #296
We need a better plan Cosmic Kitten Dec 2014 #303
So, if "the key to war crimes prosecution is to first politically isolate highest targets... MrMickeysMom Dec 2014 #300
The Democratic BASE is not a significant deterent Cosmic Kitten Dec 2014 #301
How pissed off are you, compared to me? MrMickeysMom Dec 2014 #302
This is not about emotions Cosmic Kitten Dec 2014 #304
You're right… it is not about emotions... MrMickeysMom Dec 2014 #305
I changed my mind: I love this thread! Quantess Dec 2014 #309
Comedy fuckin' GOLD Quantess Dec 2014 #336
true heaven05 Dec 2014 #315
Strange CullenBohannon Dec 2014 #318
"...they ignore you - because you are deliberately inconsequential." Peace Patriot Dec 2014 #342
This is a steaming pantload. Odin2005 Dec 2014 #343
Read the whole thread sometime, for some good laffs Quantess Dec 2014 #344
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