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True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
Tue Aug 4, 2015, 08:34 PM Aug 2015

America without Landlords: A more in-depth discussion. [View all]

In an earlier post, I raised the general theoretical question of what would happen if owners of real estate could only buy or sell (or use it themselves) rather than renting out and being landlords. The fact of how horrifyingly one-sided, exploitive, and artificially price-inflated tenant/landlord business relationships tend to be is painfully obvious, and the massive power imbalance between tenants and landlords (even in areas with relatively strong tenant activism) is something our society has yet to address on a fundamental level.

So I would like to summarize the main objections that have been raised to banning landlordism in the very large number of comments the original post received. Although I answered a number of them, they were repeated so often that it became a chore to answer the same objections over and over, so here is a summary that everyone can consult and comment further on:

1. Big Gubmint!

Don't give a shit. I'm a liberal progressive, and I believe the government's job is to manage the economy for the benefit of society as a whole - which is what it either has been doing or supposed to have been doing since 1933.

If you are against the basic concept of the government regulating business, your opinions are beyond the scope of the topic, and completely outside my interest. If you're against the objective of the idea (greater wealth equality through government policy), then your opinion of whether the idea achieves that objective obviously involves a conflict of interest.

2. Would harm renters.

As explained in the original post, if the only two ways for profit-driven owners to make a profit are using the locations themselves or selling, most would find it more convenient to sell. This would reduce the market price of the real estate considerably, stabilizing only after the property has distributed widely enough that it's primarily being used by the owners (whether for habitation or business) rather than by very wealthy individuals or corporations whose sole function is to passively own and extort rent from users. With a drastically reduced price, far more people who were once forced to rent could afford to buy.

For the rest, we can very easily imagine any number of arrangements whereby groups pool resources, or else laws are changed to allow smaller increments of purchase. But these are details that should be left to specific legislation, and are not realistic objections to the fundamental concept of eliminating rental arrangements. The fact is that you can nitpick and use "Yeah, well, what about such-and-such a special case?!" arguments against laws that already exist and already work just fine.

But here's the most crucial fact: The status quo grievously harms renters. The very existence of the renter/landlord business arrangement - which is typically not voluntary on the part of the renter, but extorted by their circumstances and the market control exerted by current owners - harms renters. The status quo hurts renters, and is bleeding them dry. Bleeding the entire American middle class dry. The problem is vast and drastic, and here is one possible element of a solution to it.

You can throw in just about any mitigation to specific legislation to deal with timing, gradualism, increments, and other fine policy details, but fundamentally you cannot show why such a system - once fully implemented, with rational mechanisms put in place to address obvious concerns - is a bad idea. Objections become circular, saying that we cannot change because everything is already built around the current system, forgetting that the current system wasn't always the current system either. We have choices to make, and a fact to confront that the status quo is deeply harming us.


3. Would harm current homeowners.

There are a vast panoply of methods we can envision in legislation to deal with that - grandfather clauses, tax credit mitigations of losses, etc. This is, again, a question for specific legislation and not the fundamental idea. Because once the system is in place, and all the costs of transition are dealt with one way or another, there would be far more homeowners (although some would merely own apartments or even single rooms), keeping far more of their income because it's not being extorted by landlords. That is a good end in itself to seek, so the question is merely can legislation be designed that transitions to that without wreaking havoc?

The answer is obviously yes, if you believe in FDR-style liberal progressive democracy. The changes his administration wrought were far more drastic than this one, since this only concerns one element of one industry, and the parasitic speculative financial organizations that use it to engage in stock market fraud. So, if we are not so brainwashed by decades of conservative dogma into thinking a government can't handle something like this, what's the problem other than fear of change?

4. Would harm local tax revenues based on property value.

People buy property based on their ability to buy it, and that doesn't change just because prices fall. Usually they will buy exactly what they can afford, and if prices fall, they can afford a bigger house. But the total value of the house that person or family buys is the same because their resources to buy it are the same, so they pay the same in property taxes that they did before.

It's fair to say that the money would move around geographically, but that already happens: Some neighborhoods go down, some rise up. Some are blighted, some are gentrified, some cruise along just fine. All economic change does that. And if the argument against a positive change - an increase in general prosperity - is that it disrupts some local economies, that's a completely moot objection. Disruption caused by increasing prosperity is a good problem to have, and one that solves itself by people's ability to contribute to their communities and attract or start businesses increasing.

There is also the fact that people typically take better care of property when it's their own, and communities in general when they feel invested rather than feeling like a second-class citizen because they're not a land-owner.

This country started out being only of, by, and for white land-owning males. We've made a lot of progress on the white and male parts of that exclusionary legacy, but people who don't own real estate are still treated like peasants, extorted, and ignored by politicians. It's time to change that.

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So you got locked out of your own thread, and you want to start over, eh? X_Digger Aug 2015 #1
As I said, there were a vast number of repetitious comments raising the same objections. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #3
I said it over in the other thread. If you hadn't called someone a freeper, you could reply. n/t X_Digger Aug 2015 #4
One more for the Ignore List. Bye. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #7
Given your smug dismissal of real problems with your proposal, it doesn't surprise me.. X_Digger Aug 2015 #20
Your proposal was idiotic leftynyc Aug 2015 #99
!!!! zappaman Aug 2015 #44
you didn't address hill2016 Aug 2015 #2
I don't think that's the case. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #6
do you really hill2016 Aug 2015 #82
This would just create a giant black market for rentals. Throd Aug 2015 #5
Black markets are only born when a need isn't met. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #12
You sound like Nicolas Maduro. Throd Aug 2015 #16
You sound like ad hominem. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #36
No, you're supposed to accuse me of being a CIA stooge. Throd Aug 2015 #40
I agree. zappaman Aug 2015 #45
Then offer actual explanations of your objections instead of laughable Red-baiting. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #47
It's the same 3:00 am bong-addled ramblings I remember during art school in the early 90's. Throd Aug 2015 #50
Thanks for the insulting thought-terminating cliches, but I'm only interested in real comments. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #54
No, you're only interested in people who agree with this tripe. Throd Aug 2015 #62
Agreement is not required, only justification of your position, which you've failed to give. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #69
Spot on. College sophomores are all-wise, aren't they? Hekate Aug 2015 #113
Don't forget ethical... Positrons Aug 2015 #93
"They can choose to charge lower rents than they could get away with charging......." Really? WillowTree Aug 2015 #89
Posting this twice doesn't make it less silly mythology Aug 2015 #8
The OP argues otherwise, and your failure to answer any of its points concedes as much. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #13
It certainly doesn't argue persuasively mythology Aug 2015 #60
Let me guess - you can't afford a mortgage hack89 Aug 2015 #9
Accusing progressives of being envious of the rich. Never heard that one before. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #14
My mother is a landlord. She is not rich hack89 Aug 2015 #28
Point 3 deals with this. There are vast numbers of quite obvious ways that legislation True Blue Door Aug 2015 #34
But why should she have to give it up? hack89 Aug 2015 #51
The system is harmful. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #57
No it is not hack89 Aug 2015 #59
Let me get this straight: You're denying that rents have increased while wages have not? True Blue Door Aug 2015 #64
All those years I rented I was not exploited hack89 Aug 2015 #66
I'm very happy that your life experiences have gone smoothly. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #71
Your history is off too whatthehey Aug 2015 #107
I think renting is cheaper. yeoman6987 Aug 2015 #74
Lost my home after a seperation Codeine Aug 2015 #75
So sorry to hear that, but so glad things are well now yeoman6987 Aug 2015 #77
I will deny that renting is more expensive then buying. lancer78 Aug 2015 #79
The problem is that in cities where there is high demand for rentals snagglepuss Aug 2015 #70
That doesn't justify the OP's solution hack89 Aug 2015 #97
Do rent controls destroy property rights? snagglepuss Aug 2015 #104
No. But the OP has nothing to do with rent controls. nt hack89 Aug 2015 #109
How is it harmful to provide housing? whatthehey Aug 2015 #106
What about people that wan to rent Travis_0004 Aug 2015 #10
Again, this is a question for the details of specific legislation. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #17
How can we have a discussion if your solution is to 'wait for the legislation' Travis_0004 Aug 2015 #21
We can have a discussion about possible aspects of legislation. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #27
Ok, lets discuss one aspect Travis_0004 Aug 2015 #46
Renting is a means to an end, and that end is better achieved in other ways under this scenario. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #67
So fuck people that want to rent.. Okay. That'll fly. X_Digger Aug 2015 #72
Who the fuck are you to decide that? leftynyc Aug 2015 #100
Did you miss 2008-2012? yeoman6987 Aug 2015 #76
"The status quo grievously harms renters." Apparently, there was disagreement with that... cherokeeprogressive Aug 2015 #11
Rents constantly increase while incomes don't. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #18
All you're doing is stating an opinion; I respect that. But in the end, ALL it is, is an opinion. cherokeeprogressive Aug 2015 #22
It is not opinion that rents constantly increase while incomes don't. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #29
We need to End Real Estate as a Commodity Market - Redux daredtowork Aug 2015 #15
I would agree with stricter rental regulation as a stopgap measure, but... True Blue Door Aug 2015 #23
Without mobility people become serfs daredtowork Aug 2015 #31
What if only you could not rent... XRubicon Aug 2015 #19
Please read the OP before commenting. Specifically Point 2. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #24
Sorry my bad, I forgot this is your made up world XRubicon Aug 2015 #25
And yet another one for the Ignore List. This is fun. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #30
Go ahead and ignore me too FLPanhandle Aug 2015 #33
and I offered to make you a movie star... XRubicon Aug 2015 #42
Again? Really? No thanks GitRDun Aug 2015 #26
Chiming in to say you have nothing to say is really unnecessary. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #32
I said a lot in the other thread GitRDun Aug 2015 #35
Responding to your disruptive comments is the waste of time. Ignored. Bye. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #38
In your case, I am quite pleased to be on the ignore list. GitRDun Aug 2015 #41
I just find this dumb. Having to buy an apartment to go to college is just nuts Yo_Mama Aug 2015 #37
This is another example of something trivially obvious language in legislation True Blue Door Aug 2015 #43
When people point out the practical problems, you call it 'trivially obvious' to fix muriel_volestrangler Aug 2015 #90
Prices are NOT going to be a lot lower TexasMommaWithAHat Aug 2015 #112
I'm interested in the point hughee99 brought up. Dr. Strange Aug 2015 #39
That is indeed an interesting question worth exploring. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #49
This thread is just as dumb the second time around. Ace Rothstein Aug 2015 #48
Pro-tip: It helps if you read it before commenting. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #52
Oh, I've read the proposal and I wish I didn't. Ace Rothstein Aug 2015 #95
Still twaddle. The "logic" holds up only inside your imaginary bubble, not the real world. nt Hekate Aug 2015 #53
And this kind of objection is still empty, knee-jerk "heresy" accusations. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #58
Many people prefer to rent. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #55
I've been a Landlord, renter and own home owner. rgbecker Aug 2015 #56
I've been here long enough to know this place has a mixture of viewpoints. True Blue Door Aug 2015 #63
Maybe we could start by just limiting landlords. Cheese Sandwich Aug 2015 #61
Rental income is taxed.n/t tammywammy Aug 2015 #65
Yeah. I mean like, more. To discourage it. nt Cheese Sandwich Aug 2015 #68
Not for lancer78 Aug 2015 #80
Just how low do you think prices would go? Codeine Aug 2015 #73
His original proposal lancer78 Aug 2015 #81
What? Krytan11c Aug 2015 #83
he thinks lancer78 Aug 2015 #84
Maybe for him 10000 isn't a lot Krytan11c Aug 2015 #88
Actually I am thinking about investing heavily in camping tents, perhaps some of the homeless would Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #78
sure is a fucking racket in AZ. Landlord tenant act is shit. Renter doesn't have a chance. lonestarnot Aug 2015 #85
On point #4 Krytan11c Aug 2015 #86
I'm not suggesting this solution but it has been done before Cheese Sandwich Aug 2015 #87
It would seem to be far less complex, plausibly unconstitutional, broadly disruptive, TheKentuckian Aug 2015 #91
still a dumb idea - sounds like a commercial for the Chamber of Commerce DrDan Aug 2015 #92
Land-use regulations, even when serving a legitimate... meaculpa2011 Aug 2015 #94
I rent because I don't want to mow lawns. alarimer Aug 2015 #96
Many people rent because they cannot afford a house. Some save for a down payment but Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2015 #98
The biggest reason this wouldn't work dumbcat Aug 2015 #101
So are you a shill for the 'hospitality industry'? Because your proposal would be a boon to hotels Bluenorthwest Aug 2015 #102
Short term rentals would boom alright- and all long term rentals will just be converted to them Lee-Lee Aug 2015 #110
It's pretty obvious nobody can actually have this discussion with you and get anywhere Lee-Lee Aug 2015 #103
It's easy. A federal law which bans all economic relationships... meaculpa2011 Aug 2015 #105
This specious thread makes liberals look stupid. lumberjack_jeff Aug 2015 #108
Not to mention the fact....... WillowTree Aug 2015 #111
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