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In reply to the discussion: I am not religious. Can you please categorize Atheism into a "race"? [View all]MADem
(135,425 posts)282. Einstein and Dworkin are "nothing" eh? OK!
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/apr/04/religion-without-god/?pagination=false
The familiar stark divide between people of religion and without religion is too crude. Many millions of people who count themselves atheists have convictions and experiences very like and just as profound as those that believers count as religious. They say that though they do not believe in a personal god, they nevertheless believe in a force in the universe greater than we are. They feel an inescapable responsibility to live their lives well, with due respect for the lives of others; they take pride in a life they think well lived and suffer sometimes inconsolable regret at a life they think, in retrospect, wasted. They find the Grand Canyon not just arresting but breathtakingly and eerily wonderful. They are not simply interested in the latest discoveries about the vast universe but enthralled by them. These are not, for them, just a matter of immediate sensuous and otherwise inexplicable response. They express a conviction that the force and wonder they sense are real, just as real as planets or pain, that moral truth and natural wonder do not simply evoke awe but call for it.
There are famous and poetic expressions of the same set of attitudes. Albert Einstein said that though an atheist he was a deeply religious man:To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive formsthis knowledge, this feeling, is at the center of true religiousness. In this sense, and in this sense only, I belong in the ranks of devoutly religious men.1Percy Bysshe Shelley declared himself an atheist who nevertheless felt that The awful shadow of some unseen Power/Floats though unseen among us .2 Philosophers, historians, and sociologists of religion have insisted on an account of religious experience that finds a place for religious atheism. William James said that one of the two essentials of religion is a sense of fundamentality: that there are things in the universe, as he put it, that throw the last stone.3 Theists have a god for that role, but an atheist can think that the importance of living well throws the last stone, that there is nothing more basic on which that responsibility rests or needs to rest.
Judges often have to decide what religion means for legal purposes. For example, the American Supreme Court had to decide whether, when Congress provided a conscientious objection exemption from military service for men whose religion would not allow them to serve, an atheist whose moral convictions also prohibited service qualified for the objection. It decided that he did qualify.4 The Court, called upon to interpret the Constitutions guarantee of free exercise of religion in another case, declared that many religions flourish in the United States that do not recognize a god, including something the Court called secular humanism.5 Ordinary people, moreover, have come to use religion in contexts having nothing to do with either gods or ineffable forces. They say that Americans make a religion of their Constitution, and that for some people baseball is a religion. These latter uses of religion are only metaphorical, to be sure, but they seem parasitic not on beliefs about God but rather on deep commitments more generally.
So the phrase religious atheism, however surprising, is not an oxymoron; religion is not restricted to theism just as a matter of what words mean. But the phrase might still be thought confusing. Would it not be better, for the sake of clarity, to reserve religion for theism and then to say that Einstein, Shelley, and the others are sensitive or spiritual atheists? But on a second look, expanding the territory of religion improves clarity by making plain the importance of what is shared across that territory. Richard Dawkins says that Einsteins language is destructively misleading because clarity demands a sharp distinction between a belief that the universe is governed by fundamental physical laws, which Dawkins thought Einstein meant, and a belief that it is governed by something supernatural,...But Einstein meant much more than that the universe is organized around fundamental physical laws; indeed his view I quoted is, in one important sense, an endorsement of the supernatural. The beauty and sublimity he said we could reach only as a feeble reflection are not part of nature; they are something beyond nature that cannot be grasped even by finally understanding the most fundamental of physical laws. It was Einsteins faith that some transcendental and objective value permeates the universe, value that is neither a natural phenomenon nor a subjective reaction to natural phenomena. That is what led him to insist on his own religiosity.
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I am not religious. Can you please categorize Atheism into a "race"? [View all]
Quantess
Nov 2015
OP
That's a right wing Christian myth, Consevapedia and FreeRepublic claim atheism is a religion too.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#44
I noticed that too. Makes you wonder where else these people hang out.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#102
That poster said we worship and you argued the point so I'm asking you.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#49
I am not going to argue with it as a way of identifying the characteristics of a person's
MADem
Nov 2015
#62
Is bald a hair colour or not? Here's the dictionary definition if you need assistance:
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#63
Apparently--and this angers you because you keep asking the question--it is NOT a "yes or no"
MADem
Nov 2015
#73
Actually I knew you couldn't prove it, I just wanted to watch you try.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#74
Dropping the ball, pulling out the hat tip emoticon, running away from the argument, and
MADem
Nov 2015
#151
Because not believing in fairies is the same thing believing in fairies, amirite?
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#159
Now that you finally admitted that atheism isn't a religion we're all done!
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#169
It's kind of sad how you always try to play that "Now that you've finally admitted" game when
MADem
Nov 2015
#172
Ha ha ha....of COURSE you didn't! Can't have those paradigms challenged, can we?
MADem
Nov 2015
#176
Declare victory/TLDR/yawn--you'd be better off just buckling down and learning something.
MADem
Nov 2015
#181
These are the same folks who will bleat about pastafarianism not being "a real religion"
Warren DeMontague
Nov 2015
#242
The hypocrisy is unbelievable. Stereotyping, intolerance, redefining words, just like Conservapedia.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#244
No. But a group that gets together, has ministers, gets an IRS tax exemption in USA, and
MADem
Nov 2015
#162
"No." So atheism is not a religion? Good! Glad you finally figured that out!
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#166
All over the world. Go to Youtube, punch in Sunday Assembly, and watch what pops up.
MADem
Nov 2015
#195
Well, if these congregations aren't screeching and whining about it, why should I?
MADem
Nov 2015
#207
Right? I love how people expose their prejudices in threads like this.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#105
Maybe they'll evolve. It just takes some people longer to learn to be tolerant.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#239
Critical thinking is just another exercise in pursuing unsubstantiated bullshit!
Warren DeMontague
Nov 2015
#243
Sure, many outspoken minorities seem uppity to certain kinds of people.
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#372
Well I'll just have to take your word for that, my sneering, self-righteous friend.
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#374
I'm sorry, but weren't you just complaining about a smug sense of superiority?
Act_of_Reparation
Dec 2015
#379
And the irony is lost on you as you say this with your own smug sense of superiority.
cleanhippie
Dec 2015
#383
Years ago I used to refer to myself as agnostic because the label 'atheist' makes you a target.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#117
Me too, had a couple of close calls and never prayed. Never even thought about it.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#120
If atheism is a religion bald is a hair colour and barefoot is a shoe.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#16
On my government loan application, under spouse, I was instructed to write "none" or "N/A" if single
Hassin Bin Sober
Nov 2015
#88
Lol! That bald being a hair colour canard because...driver's licences is the same thing.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#99
Except for disease-free which is actually a type of STD you get from abstinence.
GoneFishin
Nov 2015
#111
On other parts of the internet, people don't mind the reference to atheism as a religion~!
AlbertCat
Nov 2015
#30
Nice gish gallop, but where do the people in the articles you cited claim atheism is a religion?
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#48
Gish gallop? You're telling me those people at those Sunday Assemblies are not atheists?
MADem
Nov 2015
#51
Now you're trying to move the goalposts. The question is whether atheism is a religion.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#53
I said it was a BELIEF SYSTEM. You keep throwing out the R word--and some atheists apparently
MADem
Nov 2015
#57
Because that was the claim we objected to, that atheism is a religion:
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#60
There are atheist ministers. If they want to call it a religion, I don't quibble.
MADem
Nov 2015
#64
It's not my job to disprove that poster's claim, and again they're not an atheist.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#69
Well there goes the theory that you believe you're the center of the universe.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#160
I never claimed to own it, I am just using the actual definition instead of your fantasy nt
LostOne4Ever
Nov 2015
#232
See, they aren't God EITHER! And listen to you, with your "actual atheist" snobbery!
MADem
Nov 2015
#229
You keep trying to insist that there are "rules" to atheism, and you're trying to act like the
MADem
Dec 2015
#251
Wow, you really have no freaking clue about anything you are talking about in this thread do you?
LostOne4Ever
Dec 2015
#256
You should watch the videos, and listen to what the PEOPLE are saying. It would help you understand
MADem
Dec 2015
#257
No you were banned for telling people what to think just like you are trying to do now
LostOne4Ever
Dec 2015
#262
'The linked source is spinning his words, it's a right wing rag run by the Heritage Foundation.'
MADem
Dec 2015
#263
The Sunday Assembly is not a borg. And unlike you, they have no doctrine or dogma.
MADem
Dec 2015
#279
No, just your arguments are nothing. Because you don't even understand the basic argument.
LostOne4Ever
Dec 2015
#302
I provided links that stated otherwise. Not sure where you get the authority to make that claim.
MADem
Dec 2015
#308
Dead white racist atheists...I don't think these two wanted to kill any Muslims!
MADem
Dec 2015
#285
"Feynman: An atheist. Agnostic for me would be trying to weasel out and sound a little nicer..."
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#309
It's pretty clear that, no matter what he said in response to that question, that he was uncertain.
MADem
Dec 2015
#310
Agnostic atheists aren't certain, that's why it's called 'agnostic' atheism - still atheism.
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#311
I didn't think you would understand, it's never easy for fundamentalist thinkers.
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#329
Nothing to do with black and white--it has to do with what the gentleman actually said.
MADem
Dec 2015
#331
Read through all of the definitions again and let me know which parts are confusing you.
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#333
So you refuse to even try to learn about agnostic atheism, how unexpected!
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#338
And then he acknowledges there is a possibility (albeit a low one) that he could be wrong.
MADem
Dec 2015
#314
As I said, and you're ignoring, he qualified his response with his waffling in the next paragraph.
MADem
Dec 2015
#317
Why do the atheists have to be dead? Live ones can't define atheism because...
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#293
You can keep running around and cheerleading those who are contributing to the conversation if you'd
MADem
Dec 2015
#296
I don't understand why you can't stop telling us we practice a religion because we say so.
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#300
Well, I'm not really conversing with you. You keep jumping in with your booya stuff,
MADem
Dec 2015
#313
I asked a question. Why do you keep telling us what we think and believe?
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#315
Is Thomas Aquinas one of those "dead, white racist angry atheists" too?
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#269
Oops, I got confused. So much misinformation in this one thread I just can't keep track of it all.
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#272
And Oxford University and the Religious Tolerance Website are devoted to Genocide of the religious
LostOne4Ever
Dec 2015
#273
There seems to be a need for some to redefine a minority/movement whenever they get too uppity.
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#276
EXACTLY! That could be any uppity minority saying "NO" to the majority!
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#278
Well in order to be correct one has to be dead, white, non-racist and an atheist.
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#295
No one is getting riled up about the Sunday Assembly but you. Most of us are indifferent to them
LostOne4Ever
Dec 2015
#330
You don't really know a thing about me. And bigger letters doesn't make it "better."
MADem
Dec 2015
#332
Your first video (the short one) didn't say a word about atheism being a religion
LostOne4Ever
Dec 2015
#353
I don't know why you think that older atheists are the mouthy activists and the millenials aren't
cemaphonic
Dec 2015
#361
They said without a trace of irony after insisting only dead, white, non-racist atheists count.
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#301
You are hilarious. Link after link from credible sources proving you wrong and still you dig in.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#238
Why are the opinions of dead, white racist angry atheists "credible?" I don't think bigots are
MADem
Dec 2015
#260
ZOMG! ALL of the people in those links are "dead, white racist angry atheists"?
beam me up scottie
Dec 2015
#261
Well done, LO4E!!! I can't believe they're still pretending their definition is correct.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#236
Another fail! Strawman! Agnostic atheists don't "claim to have all the answers".
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#154
The referee meme only works if you speak from a position of authority, which clearly, you do not.
MADem
Nov 2015
#193
No, it's not a "belief system" either and that's why it is not a "religion"
rjsquirrel
Dec 2015
#350
What is a religion? A set of beliefs, principles, guidelines that people adhere to, in an organized
MADem
Nov 2015
#134
So AA is a religion? A book club? What about volunteers at a shelter?
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#163
Like I said, you've seen the error of your ways so there's really no need to continue.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#171
Again--there has been no "error of my ways" --trying to pretend otherwise is a real loser
MADem
Nov 2015
#174
The bible belt, well that explains where you got the bigoted stereotype about atheism.
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#97
No, I'm not--but you sure are. Here you are, continuing to "make the rules" for the atheists!
MADem
Dec 2015
#254
No, I'm not. I'm simply talking about one specific religion of atheists called the Sunday Assembly.
MADem
Dec 2015
#259
Yes, you are. You've been judging me and others in nearly every one of your posts
Orrex
Dec 2015
#264
Now you're down to name calling? Judgmental? A hypocrite? An outright liar? THAT's what you call
MADem
Dec 2015
#268
I called you judgmental and a hypocrite because you *are* a judgmental hypocrite
Orrex
Dec 2015
#341
That is simply not true. You're just angry that I don't agree with YOUR opinions, and so you
MADem
Dec 2015
#344
Atheists that despise Muslims and often are closely associated with the neocons
cpwm17
Nov 2015
#116
The term is used as a slur by anti-atheist bigots, and I notice you didn't eliminate Dennett, why?
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#122
No, new atheists do not "tend to be pro-war, or at least rather bigoted".
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#125
So what? Are all Muslims jihadists because some bigots associate them with Bin Laden?
beam me up scottie
Nov 2015
#127
Harris and the late Hitchens don't despise Muslims. They despise the text and what it teaches.
LiberalAndProud
Nov 2015
#131
I love how this thread reveals the subconscious self-loathing of religious folks
whatthehey
Nov 2015
#83
Race is a social construct rather than a biological division. Make your own categories
Agnosticsherbet
Nov 2015
#103
Atheism is a lack of belief in gods, but many atheists hold many false beliefs.
ZombieHorde
Nov 2015
#187
I am astounded at how many atheists are throwing out "rules" for a belief system that they insist
MADem
Dec 2015
#255
I am astounded at how you don't know the difference between a rule and a definition
LostOne4Ever
Dec 2015
#366