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stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
27. They are all over the place because they are defined by nationalistic like or hate of people and
Sat Oct 7, 2017, 10:08 PM
Oct 2017

groups.

Orwell wrote about the concept in his "Notes on Nationalism". You can read about it here: https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-prize/orwell/essays-and-other-works/notes-on-nationalism/

Here are the first four paragraphs:

Somewhere or other Byron makes use of the French word longeur, and remarks in passing that though in England we happen not to have the word, we have the thing in considerable profusion. In the same way, there is a habit of mind which is now so widespread that it affects our thinking on nearly every subject, but which has not yet been given a name. As the nearest existing equivalent I have chosen the word ‘nationalism’, but it will be seen in a moment that I am not using it in quite the ordinary sense, if only because the emotion I am speaking about does not always attach itself to what is called a nation – that is, a single race or a geographical area. It can attach itself to a church or a class, or it may work in a merely negative sense, against something or other and without the need for any positive object of loyalty.

By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’.[1] But secondly ­– and this is much more important – I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.

So long as it is applied merely to the more notorious and identifiable nationalist movements in Germany, Japan, and other countries, all this is obvious enough. Confronted with a phenomenon like Nazism, which we can observe from the outside, nearly all of us would say much the same things about it. But here I must repeat what I said above, that I am only using the word ‘nationalism’ for lack of a better. Nationalism, in the extended sense in which I am using the word, includes such movements and tendencies as Communism, political Catholicism, Zionism, Antisemitism, Trotskyism and Pacifism. It does not necessarily mean loyalty to a government or a country, still less to one’s own country, and it is not even strictly necessary that the units in which it deals should actually exist. To name a few obvious examples, Jewry, Islam, Christendom, the Proletariat and the White Race are all of them objects of passionate nationalistic feeling: but their existence can be seriously questioned, and there is no definition of any one of them that would be universally accepted.

It is also worth emphasizing once again that nationalist feeling can be purely negative. There are, for example, Trotskyists who have become simply enemies of the U.S.S.R. without developing a corresponding loyalty to any other unit. When one grasps the implications of this, the nature of what I mean by nationalism becomes a good deal clearer. A nationalist is one who thinks solely, or mainly, in terms of competitive prestige. He may be a positive or a negative nationalist – that is, he may use his mental energy either in boosting or in denigrating – but at any rate his thoughts always turn on victories, defeats, triumphs and humiliations. He sees history, especially contemporary history, as the endless rise and decline of great power units, and every event that happens seems to him a demonstration that his own side is on the up-grade and some hated rival is on the down-grade. But finally, it is important not to confuse nationalism with mere worship of success. The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary, having picked his side, he persuades himself that it is the strongest, and is able to stick to his belief even when the facts are overwhelmingly against him. Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception. Every nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty, but he is also – since he is conscious of serving something bigger than himself – unshakeably certain of being in the right.
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The people and posts at JPR deserve the same (lack of) respect as the people and posts at FR. LonePirate Oct 2017 #1
Agreed. The only reason they deserve mention at all is that they are part of DU history AND stevenleser Oct 2017 #2
Discordant notes in the choir? guillaumeb Oct 2017 #10
What's Sanders going to do, run as a 3rd party candidate? He has zero chance running as a Dem again. brush Oct 2017 #33
I am not a Bernie fan at all, but I wouldn't say he has zero chance. But the JPR types dont stevenleser Oct 2017 #35
They can advance their self-deceptive interests all they want but the Democratic Party... brush Oct 2017 #37
I agree 100% nt stevenleser Oct 2017 #39
A question I keep asking and that Bernie-bashers keep not answering... Jim Lane Oct 2017 #46
The party should not be joined so that a little-known independent can use... brush Oct 2017 #51
You've got it wrong. Jim Lane Oct 2017 #53
"After everything I've said about the party ... NanceGreggs Oct 2017 #62
Is it possible that the DNC could bring in a rule that you OnDoutside Oct 2017 #65
I don't know if it's possible. It's clearly the wrong way to go. Jim Lane Oct 2017 #110
Your post is misleading. Leahy is a Democratic delisen Oct 2017 #71
Not misleading at all. Stating facts. Jim Lane Oct 2017 #104
Smears? MyNameGoesHere Oct 2017 #106
Yes, smears. A lie about someone you dislike is still a lie. Jim Lane Oct 2017 #114
Bernie said "I am a Democrat" during his campaign. DanTex Oct 2017 #142
Exactly. The Democrat-bashers refuse to acknowledge Bernie's own words R B Garr Oct 2017 #60
DNC bylaws should be amended so that delegates can not vote for or be claimed by someone stevenleser Oct 2017 #55
That's a terrible idea. Jim Lane Oct 2017 #109
Nope, its a great idea. You want to be our partys standard bearer? Great. stevenleser Oct 2017 #111
Online signup is not voter registration Jim Lane Oct 2017 #113
I never said it was. Its another way to join the party. Nt stevenleser Oct 2017 #115
It is not unreasonable for someone standing on behalf of the Democratic Party, to reflect the ideals OnDoutside Oct 2017 #112
I'm a Democrat and a small-d democrat, so I say leave it up to the people. Jim Lane Oct 2017 #116
I left there a long time ago... maybe it was the racist yuiyoshida Oct 2017 #105
I have more respect for the scummy posters at FR. At least they aren't pretending to be Democrats. FSogol Oct 2017 #18
Agreed Gothmog Oct 2017 #44
This message was self-deleted by its author Eliot Rosewater Oct 2017 #3
Anything good for Dems losses then off- so fuck em if they hate Dems. bettyellen Oct 2017 #4
Does this mean they support Nancy Pelosi now and dont think she is too old? Eliot Rosewater Oct 2017 #5
Pelosi is a woman JI7 Oct 2017 #7
If only that was the only reason they hate her. Eliot Rosewater Oct 2017 #8
No, it only applies to men. Lil Missy Oct 2017 #141
Oy. greatauntoftriplets Oct 2017 #6
My prediction: Bernie won't run in 2020. longship Oct 2017 #9
Sanders has no chance of winning the nomination unless JI7 Oct 2017 #11
He would still lose. He has angered many Democrats of late with some unwise comments . Demsrule86 Oct 2017 #136
The difference between them and me is MineralMan Oct 2017 #12
Me too...MM. Demsrule86 Oct 2017 #137
still obssessing i see shanny Oct 2017 #13
Yep, they are still obsessing. nt stevenleser Oct 2017 #16
You haven't been here very long ... NanceGreggs Oct 2017 #21
Are we talking about G_j Oct 2017 #59
DU has always commented on FR ... NanceGreggs Oct 2017 #61
Got Your Back On This ProfessorGAC Oct 2017 #67
That is what I was saying G_j Oct 2017 #74
You've forgotten about ... NanceGreggs Oct 2017 #119
Actually, G_j Oct 2017 #125
Agree! Wellstone ruled Oct 2017 #108
no, the "jpr nutjobs" posted a video by somebody called "the humanist report" who interprets this. m-lekktor Oct 2017 #14
5 recs and two comments both agreeing. And I remember Segami who is the poster, he agrees. stevenleser Oct 2017 #15
And when he posted it before, some of us disagreed Jim Lane Oct 2017 #47
You were in a small minority then as now over there stevenleser Oct 2017 #52
I love that insidious word "normalize". Brilliant misdirection-by-framing. Jim Lane Oct 2017 #117
JPR is full of Stein and stay home kind of voters who helped elect Donald Trump. Demsrule86 Oct 2017 #135
And a bunch of nut jobs agree with the poster, including some who vow not to vote for a Democrat.n/t pnwmom Oct 2017 #17
Lol. MrsCoffee Oct 2017 #45
Sorry, we can all read the JPR thread, so you can't just make up stuff about it emulatorloo Oct 2017 #107
Right but it is what they think so...how is that different. Demsrule86 Oct 2017 #138
bwahahahaha WhiteTara Oct 2017 #19
They referred to Kamala Harris as a DINO. That is what they did to HRC. StevieM Oct 2017 #20
Their main issue with her is that she isnt Bernie. Anyone who looms as a challenge to stevenleser Oct 2017 #34
It's a definite lolsob that that they now want to anoint Bernie Sanders for 2020 KitSileya Oct 2017 #54
Extreme LOL. betsuni Oct 2017 #63
Why do you care what another website is doing? And why did you bring it here? irisblue Oct 2017 #22
See NanceGreggs #21 above stevenleser Oct 2017 #25
The posters at JPR ... NanceGreggs Oct 2017 #23
Very well said. I forgot about pizzagate. stevenleser Oct 2017 #26
Exactly. NanceGreggs Oct 2017 #38
"The one defining characteristic of the JPR folks ... NanceGreggs Oct 2017 #42
People there were posting stuff from Far Right websites. Willie Pep Oct 2017 #101
I remember them calling for California to be moved up?!! Tavarious Jackson Oct 2017 #24
They are all over the place because they are defined by nationalistic like or hate of people and stevenleser Oct 2017 #27
So much for "moving on" mcar Oct 2017 #28
Yup, one trick ponies. nt stevenleser Oct 2017 #30
Yes, it's a good thing everyone on DU has moved on. Jim Lane Oct 2017 #49
Attacking people for present tense actions has nothing to do with whether we have moved on stevenleser Oct 2017 #58
Exactly! mcar Oct 2017 #77
Please stop putting words in my mouth. Jim Lane Oct 2017 #118
Im using your own word. Thats where I got it from in the first place. nt stevenleser Oct 2017 #124
You appear to have your facts wrong once again. Jim Lane Oct 2017 #131
This message was self-deleted by its author left-of-center2012 Oct 2017 #29
Let's take your two incorrect contentions one at a time... stevenleser Oct 2017 #32
JPR posters are NOT Democrats ... NanceGreggs Oct 2017 #41
States have been jockeying for revelance in primaries for decades. Hoyt Oct 2017 #31
Sanders and hatred of the DNC is everything for these folks. Everything has to be about stevenleser Oct 2017 #36
the anti DNC thing was pushed by the Russians JI7 Oct 2017 #40
It's a year after the election so, why are some obsessing? lovemydogs Oct 2017 #122
I doubt the Dems will make the same mistake again. GoCubsGo Oct 2017 #43
Hope not. ucrdem Oct 2017 #48
Please see my #46 above. Jim Lane Oct 2017 #50
Post removed Post removed Oct 2017 #92
Is further stifling of debates your recipe for victory in 2020? Jim Lane Oct 2017 #121
If california had their primary in march, Jeb would've gotten the Tiggeroshii Oct 2017 #56
it was over for Jeb long before March . JI7 Oct 2017 #64
They shouldn't worry, ellie Oct 2017 #57
He's not going to run as a Democrat again. Not after trashing Dem's constantly, can't fool us again. Lil Missy Oct 2017 #66
The more I hear about near 80 somethings as candidates in 2020 DFW Oct 2017 #68
Agreed, See #'s 69 and 83 below. nt stevenleser Oct 2017 #86
So bored with the "too old" otherizing delisen Oct 2017 #69
Sorry but that is baloney stevenleser Oct 2017 #83
No we do not all agree. Anecdotal stories delisen Oct 2017 #88
Now you are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and I can prove it. stevenleser Oct 2017 #89
You have no facts to back up your assertion delisen Oct 2017 #95
By all means, cite empirical studies about the ability of the elderly to work 80 hour weeks stevenleser Oct 2017 #97
Here, I will help you out, here are empirical studies that back me up stevenleser Oct 2017 #103
Average life expectancy and statistics of common health problems at certain ages are pretty solid. phleshdef Oct 2017 #126
Those stats apply to groups, not individuals delisen Oct 2017 #132
That doesn't even begin to become a refutation. phleshdef Oct 2017 #133
I agree with delisen about the case-by-case approach. Jim Lane Oct 2017 #123
I don't...you have to consider electability. And I just don't think an 80 year old candidate is Demsrule86 Oct 2017 #139
Thats a well known Russian propaganda site Renew Deal Oct 2017 #70
Whenever I see someone GaryCnf Oct 2017 #72
Almost a nice try, but you left out key points stevenleser Oct 2017 #79
Just re-read the OP GaryCnf Oct 2017 #90
I dont need to reread it, I wrote it. And I know exactly what is implied by the JPR post stevenleser Oct 2017 #91
You have a history as well GaryCnf Oct 2017 #93
LOL, JPR Folks have accused me of just about everything, so go ahead. stevenleser Oct 2017 #94
Gee, that sounds a lot like GaryCnf Oct 2017 #100
By the way GaryCnf Oct 2017 #73
There are posters on this thread advocating for Kamala Harris? OilemFirchen Oct 2017 #75
I get bupkis. OilemFirchen Oct 2017 #76
You also missed a critical point in this post as a responder pointed out stevenleser Oct 2017 #82
We can all read this thread, so you can't just make up stuff about it and get a free pass emulatorloo Oct 2017 #96
Yep. And when that persons misdirection failed, they made a not so veiled threat against me stevenleser Oct 2017 #98
Oh yeah, I definitely noticed that part. emulatorloo Oct 2017 #99
How is that a threat? GaryCnf Oct 2017 #102
K&R stonecutter357 Oct 2017 #78
Ha!! :-D NurseJackie Oct 2017 #80
The JPR nutjobs can go fuck themselves! NurseJackie Oct 2017 #81
Priceless! sheshe2 Oct 2017 #84
Indeed Cary Oct 2017 #85
The JPR nutcases are still under the illusion NastyRiffraff Oct 2017 #87
I predicted exactly that when it was announced BannonsLiver Oct 2017 #120
damn this thread sure was a hell of a way to find out that Jim has died... Ysabel Oct 2017 #127
They hate democracy, no big surprise here Blue_Tires Oct 2017 #128
Did anyone complain when it was held February, 2008? RandySF Oct 2017 #129
Why would the Democratic primary mercuryblues Oct 2017 #130
The JPR people were doomed to disappointment...because if Sen. Sanders runs, Demsrule86 Oct 2017 #134
First, Sanders has no chance of winning the 2020 election. Second, who gives a shit what JPR thinks? Lil Missy Oct 2017 #140
K&R... revmclaren Oct 2017 #143
California needs to have a voice in the nomination process Gothmog Oct 2017 #144
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»JPR Nutjobs interpret CA ...»Reply #27