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JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
70. Forget it, "Ukrainian" is a transcendent entity.
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 11:21 AM
Feb 2014

Never mind that at the time there was only the Russian empire and the French invasion, and this is a general that helped to repel it, in an event of great historical significance no matter whom you would have preferred at the time. Never mind how many times the borders and the names of the places have shifted. To those who are now deciding to take up sides that didn't even exist for most people until quite recently, it's all about how "Ukrainian" neo-nationalists (following a fascist-led coup d'etat!) are going to define "Ukrainian" territory and "interests" retroactively, as if there is an eternal "Ukraine" within the borders of today (or maybe a Greater Ukraine that needs a bit extra: why not?) that magically extends back into periods when there was no such thing. And as if this construct is now for "Ukrainians" (suddenly defined not as citizens of a state but as an ethnocultural category) and not for the "Russian" citizens of Ukraine who, of course, are about as numerous and belong in the same country. They're now foreign, it belongs to the ethnic-in-the-making "Ukrainians" - especially the ones waving some damn flag and claiming some just-invented tradition. The louder and more aggressive and more ready to beat on random liberals and peaceful cohabitors they are, the more righteously "Ukrainian" they will become.

For all of these references above in quotes, by the way, you can fill in a lot of different nationalisms, including "Russian." Nationalism is a plague that infects many peoples in much the same way, but ends up putting these very similarly afflicted peoples at each others throats as if they are suddenly so unbelievably different.

Here's to the Yugoslavians of 1991 - the substantial number, mostly young, who had never given a thought to whether they were "Croatian" or "Serbian." Who were then shanghaied into one side or another under threat to their lives. Let it not be so again!

"Scorched Earth" Kutuzov was a "geniune hero"? joshcryer Feb 2014 #1
Your view of history is rather slanted, to say the least! another_liberal Feb 2014 #2
Wow, you are nothing if not flexible... JackRiddler Feb 2014 #3
Scortch Earth was NOT the Russian Policy Against Napoleon, he did that himself.... happyslug Feb 2014 #15
Actually I think you are both right.. EX500rider Feb 2014 #28
This is why DU is so much fun--ya learn something new every day! nt MADem Feb 2014 #79
The Russian campaign is even used as a example on the "Scorched earth" wikki.. EX500rider Feb 2014 #29
I fail to see how War Communism was any different. joshcryer Feb 2014 #49
You're busy helping to stir the ancient bullshit on all fronts, I see. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #69
I'm not the one cheering for secession. joshcryer Feb 2014 #71
You are the one supporting secession, yes. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #72
Russia is the one doing that I'm afraid. joshcryer Feb 2014 #73
Ha, "personal" JackRiddler Feb 2014 #75
Not a win if Russia succeeds in splitting the country up. joshcryer Feb 2014 #77
Statues, not statutes. JackRiddler Mar 2014 #91
I saw nothing unconstitutional. joshcryer Mar 2014 #92
"If someone is offended because symbols of totalitarianism are toppled then I have no sympathy." EX500rider Mar 2014 #93
Thank you! Especially the factoid about the wheat shipments. aquart Mar 2014 #102
Those wheat shipments lead to other things. happyslug Mar 2014 #103
They have a sense of history, of course. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #4
That is some very good writing on your part, my friend. another_liberal Feb 2014 #5
Thank you. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #8
Perhaps they do so due to religious affiliation? another_liberal Feb 2014 #11
Not such a big factor. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #14
"Western Ukraine is largely Greek Catholic (which isn't very much Catholic but recognizes the Pope)" another_liberal Feb 2014 #17
The initials don't have that meaning. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #20
I see. another_liberal Feb 2014 #21
Ukrainian (Greek) Catholics are Catholic. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #24
Except it's not their country's history. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #23
Napoleon didn't pass through that place? JackRiddler Feb 2014 #25
You might want to brush up on your history. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #27
You don't have the chops for this pedantry JackRiddler Feb 2014 #57
Napoleon was trying to restablish Poland muriel_volestrangler Feb 2014 #62
It's not their country's history? Huh?!!!! rdharma Feb 2014 #35
How is a Russian General part of Ukrainian history? n/t EX500rider Feb 2014 #38
Many Seem Unaware, Sir, Czarist Russia, Like Soviet Russia, Was An Empire The Magistrate Feb 2014 #39
But not this part of present-day Ukraine muriel_volestrangler Feb 2014 #40
True, Sir The Magistrate Feb 2014 #42
+1 ... Guess they don't want to be "happy serfs" to a modern day tsar, either..? nt MADem Feb 2014 #80
Yeah, one more reason they aren't fond of Russians. n/t EX500rider Feb 2014 #41
You mean, besides the half of them who are Russians? JackRiddler Feb 2014 #76
Or is it the 17% or so? n/t EX500rider Mar 2014 #94
Languages of the Ukraine: JackRiddler Mar 2014 #95
You mean "Ruthenian" history? Right? rdharma Feb 2014 #44
Turns out many smaller members of Empires weren't fond of the experience. EX500rider Feb 2014 #46
They were known as Ruthenians until the early 1900s. rdharma Feb 2014 #50
Since when does "Ukraine" get a monopoly? JackRiddler Feb 2014 #58
"Half the people there are Russian"...um, no, they aren't Spider Jerusalem Feb 2014 #74
No. It's Russia's history. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #52
Kind of like British Generals are not part of American colonial history, eh? nt rdharma Feb 2014 #55
Washington of course was a British general. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #59
Along with Col. Washington..... there were a lot of other British officers..... rdharma Feb 2014 #60
Right, sorry: Colonel, of course. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #67
Washington was a key figure in American history. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #64
He was British because they controlled the colonies. He wasn't born in London, he was born in VA. nt MADem Feb 2014 #81
That analogy would only work if.... Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #63
Brody wasn't part of Ukraine until the end of WW2 muriel_volestrangler Feb 2014 #6
I wonder why then Svoboda felt a need to desecrate the monument . . . another_liberal Feb 2014 #7
Strange to call this 'desecration' muriel_volestrangler Feb 2014 #9
You are . . . another_liberal Feb 2014 #10
Stop with all that common sense!!! EX500rider Feb 2014 #13
I'd say you've summed up the actual situation brilliantly. Very well done! nt MADem Feb 2014 #83
They didn't "desecrate" it. They removed it with a crane. MADem Feb 2014 #82
Brody, eh? rdharma Feb 2014 #36
For comparison: hedgehog Feb 2014 #12
They both triumphed over Napoleon. another_liberal Feb 2014 #19
"their nation." funny, I thought Ukraine not Russia was their nation geek tragedy Feb 2014 #16
I was, of course, referencing "Svoboda." They are totally Ukrainian. another_liberal Feb 2014 #18
Like it or not, Russification is a subject that is going to upset a lot of people. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #22
"Ukrainians" JackRiddler Feb 2014 #26
I know you want to get all psuedo-philosophical and stuff.... Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #66
I guess I just have a greater sense of gratitude to men like Kutuzov. another_liberal Feb 2014 #31
Gen. Kutuzov never fought any battles on Ukrainian soil? Are you kidding? rdharma Feb 2014 #47
He was a lieutenant colonel then. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #54
That foot in your mouth uncomfortable? rdharma Feb 2014 #56
Um, no. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #65
Forget it, "Ukrainian" is a transcendent entity. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #70
It's Ukrainian, not "Ukrainian", you nitwit. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #90
The crazy thing is that anyone believes... JackRiddler Feb 2014 #68
Why wouldn't the Ukrainians love a statue of a Russian General? EX500rider Feb 2014 #30
I don't really care whether they love it not . . . another_liberal Feb 2014 #32
Sure, sure, who doesn't respect their former genocidal overlords... EX500rider Feb 2014 #33
Kutuzov? another_liberal Feb 2014 #34
"How is he responsible for crimes committed by leaders of the the Soviet Union?" EX500rider Feb 2014 #37
Actually the Israeli Philharmonic has played Wagner . . . another_liberal Feb 2014 #43
After not playing it for 70 years. n/t EX500rider Feb 2014 #45
Some turtles live twice that long. another_liberal Feb 2014 #48
Where did i say I hate Russian's? Oh that's right, nowhere. EX500rider Feb 2014 #51
No one is expecting you to be a fan . . . another_liberal Feb 2014 #53
"Letting ancient animosities die a natural death is more to the point." EX500rider Feb 2014 #61
All true. another_liberal Feb 2014 #86
Well there we go. JackRiddler Mar 2014 #96
You can make up stuff all you want... EX500rider Mar 2014 #97
You know what else is funny? JackRiddler Mar 2014 #98
Yep A lot of them have good reason to not be fond of Germans too. n/t EX500rider Mar 2014 #99
Good grief. That post takes not just the cake, but the entire dessert tray. MADem Feb 2014 #84
I find the framing of the article interesting. Who put the statue up, I wonder? MADem Feb 2014 #78
I tried to find out when that monument was constructed, another_liberal Feb 2014 #85
I looked at the video of the "destruction" of the statue, and there's plainly some "framing" going MADem Feb 2014 #87
"I think they're intending to relocate the thing." another_liberal Feb 2014 #88
If they were intending to get rid of it, it would have been easier to just take a sledgehammer MADem Feb 2014 #89
Destroying statues is a cowardly insult to art. Bill76 Mar 2014 #100
It is a lot to expect Ukrainians to love anything Russian. aquart Mar 2014 #101
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