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PamW

(1,825 posts)
47. Unfortunately...
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 11:48 AM
Dec 2013

Unfortunately, the non-scientists don't appreciate something that for the scientists and engineers is trivially obvious; the grid not only needs sufficient capacity, but it also requires stability.

The non-scientists don't realize that the grid has to be balanced second to second and instant to instant. Generation has to equal demand plus losses moment to moment, or the grid collapses. It is fundamental Conservation of Energy, one of Mother Nature's most most important laws. If generation is less than demand and losses, then the grid would be creating energy out of nothing. If generation exceeds demand and losses, then the grid is destroying energy. Neither of those situations Mother Nature allows. So if there is a mismatch, Mother Nature will collapse the grid before she allows Conservation of Energy to be violated.

Unfortunately, the renewables community has only scratched the surface of solving the problem of dynamic balance.

Electric grids aren't the only engineered systems that require this. I analogize it to aviation systems. Not only must the wings and engines generate sufficient lift and thrust; but the aircraft has to be aerodynamically stable. There were lots of attempts at flight before the Wright Brothers in which inventors had the necessary lift and thrust; but didn't have aerodynamically stable craft. That is what the Wright Brothers brought to the analysis; and why they succeeded where all predecessors FAILED.

http://www.thebreakthrough.org/images/Death_of_Environmentalism.pdf

Engineers use a technical term to describe systems without feedback mechanisms; "stupid".

It is why scientists including the National Academy of Sciences have such reservations about these "all renewable" proposals. At the current time, non-dispatchable renewables require dispatchable power sources like coal, gas, hydro, and nuclear to do "load following" for them.

The issue won't be decided here. For all the hand-waving arguments from the non-scientists; Mother Nature will prevent them from realizing their ill-conceived proposals in practice.

It would be easy enough to prove; the renewabes community could power some city, state, or region with renewables but DISCONNECTED from any other source of dispatchable power. They don't do that; because the engineers that are actually developing renewables know better. They know their grid can't stand without help from dispatchable sources.

As Dr. James Hansen states:

http://www.masterresource.org/2011/08/james-hansen-renewable-energy/

“Suggesting that renewables will let us phase rapidly off fossil fuels in the United States, China, India, or the world as a whole is almost the equivalent of believing in the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy.”

Again, it matters not a whit from the protests of the "all renewables" crowd. They can bleat and blather and waste bandwidth and DU storage space all they want. Their problem is that they are at odds with science and Mother Nature; and Mother Nature will assure that they LOSE. The problem is that they will ensure that the rest of us LOSE with them.

The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson

PamW

This message was self-deleted by its author elocs Dec 2013 #1
Nuclear makes it far more difficult kristopher Dec 2013 #2
National Renewable Energy Lab's 'Renewable Electricity Futures Study' kristopher Dec 2013 #3
"Our report became the basis of President Carter's energy policy." bananas Dec 2013 #4
I believe things are different today; take the of evaluation of the CEO of NRG kristopher Dec 2013 #5
BS alert here 4dsc Dec 2013 #6
Care to educate us? n/t cprise Dec 2013 #7
It's likely the same old spin FBaggins Dec 2013 #8
What is carbon "free" PamW Dec 2013 #9
So is making cement madokie Dec 2013 #13
I don't think that's it. kristopher Dec 2013 #10
I'll take your word for it. FBaggins Dec 2013 #11
No, I support a 'path' that is well documented as most effective kristopher Dec 2013 #12
Well documented by WHO? PamW Dec 2013 #14
We can start with posts #1 & #3. kristopher Dec 2013 #16
NO such thing has been established PamW Dec 2013 #18
No, I'm saying you aren't a scientist because you falsely report the results of research and data. kristopher Dec 2013 #19
My reporting is ACCURATE PamW Dec 2013 #20
ROFLMAO kristopher Dec 2013 #21
How do you come to the conclusion that everyone who doesn't agree with you madokie Dec 2013 #22
You misunderstand.. PamW Dec 2013 #23
Show me a link where I got it wrong madokie Dec 2013 #24
Good for the goose; good for the gander PamW Dec 2013 #25
Well the goose didn't find any links to back up your absurd statements madokie Dec 2013 #26
PamW you're always throwing around all this about how you're a scientist and all madokie Dec 2013 #27
Evidently madokie doesn't understand PamW Dec 2013 #28
LOL Sure you do madokie Dec 2013 #30
Yeah! You don't understand. kristopher Dec 2013 #29
The pseudo scientist has about wore me out madokie Dec 2013 #31
We can't all be geniuses... PamW Dec 2013 #33
LOL madokie Dec 2013 #34
Nothing erratic PamW Dec 2013 #32
Nice straw man apporach to your failed attempts 4dsc Dec 2013 #15
You're funny. kristopher Dec 2013 #17
Cost-minimized combinations renewables powering the grid up to 99.9% of the time kristopher Dec 2013 #35
Not a good reference Searay60 Dec 2013 #36
It's an outstanding reference kristopher Dec 2013 #37
Read The Paper Again Searay60 Dec 2013 #38
As I wrote, it's an outstanding reference. kristopher Dec 2013 #39
Kristopher Searay60 Dec 2013 #40
Those are baseless claims kristopher Dec 2013 #41
My posts was factual, practical and experienced. Searay60 Dec 2013 #42
It's amazing... kristopher Dec 2013 #43
You Think A Lot Of Your Self Searay60 Dec 2013 #44
Yeah, yeah yeah... kristopher Dec 2013 #45
LOL Searay60 Dec 2013 #46
Unfortunately... PamW Dec 2013 #47
Talking to yourself again? kristopher Dec 2013 #48
Not at all PamW Dec 2013 #49
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Environment & Energy»Carbon-Free Energy Is Pos...»Reply #47